Thursday, November 23, 2006

Why change may never come to 770

Notice the before and after pictures of 770. Before being after the battle of Sunday night, and After being the Farbrengen Lekoved Rosh Chodesh Kislev in 770 one night later. Shluchim have left for the most part, the locals could care less, and anarchy reigns again. It's business as usual.

(before, Hebrew sign missing)

(after, Hebrew sign back up)

You would think that only one day later somebody would be angry about the previous night's events, no? That something would've been done. I guess that's too much to expect from some people. I guess G-d takes people's Bechiroh away after all.


Anonymous said...

And english sign is not considered a problem?

A Simple Jew said...

I totally agree with A Yid.

No one would ever dream of hanging something in the Capitol building that did not reflect the position of the United States Government, so why is something that represents the minority of Lubavitcher opinions to be displayed prominently in 770 - the Capitol building of Lubavitch?

To me this shows that the leadership truly does not dissaprove of the Meshichist philosophy.

If I am incorrect and the leadership is staunchly against this it shows that there is no leadership and a code of silence prevails in Lubavitch.

Anonymous said...

Tzemach, you are right. Its life as usual in the zoo these days.

Anonymous said...

A MILLION apologys Tzig, I meant you not Tzemach, I am very tired now. by the way did you get my email?

Anonymous said...

a simple jew, it is not so simple, while it is a sign that the minority of chabad approve of, it is this very minority taht controls 770, as the gaboim of the shule who are of the meshichist orientation are the tenants and have control of the premises.

Anonymous said...

If it was truly a small minority, then surely it wouldn't be a problem!

Force of numbers would prevail.

Eloh Mai?

Anonymous said...

Can you believe these basterds.

Anonymous said...

Der Yid- Why bastards? Maybe it's real? Maybe.

Akiva said...

A Simple, the alternate question is, is this really worth fighting over, having a battle, permanently damaging feelings and even lives, over a sign?

Of course, that question should also be asked of those who refuse to compromise on it being there as well.

Anonymous said...

I'm no friend of Lubavitch, I have many problems with a lot of the theology, hubris etc. Still, since I'm in constant contact with non religous Jews there is no question that Lubavitch is one of the few addresses to send a freyer yid to...there are so many of these Jews, hidden from a regular frum yids eyes, the assimilation and intermarriage is unbelievable..
I wrote the above to say that despite having all the problems with Lubavitch it's still a positive Jewish source, all this till we come to Meshichisten, they are a very real danger to Lubavitchs' future.Now that they have crossed every red line is the time to take control and break away.I fear that it wont happen, this may be a 'bechiya ledoros'

A Simple Jew said...

Anonymous: How can the minority control the majority?

Akiva: It is not just a sign but the message it represents.

A Simple Jew said...

Read this

Anonymous said...

anon, maybe it's real???? listen to the song at the moment when the rebbe passes by, it's a different song. which proves beyond a shadow.... that it's grafted.
don't fall for nonsense. please!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...


The point is not that an English sign is OK. It's the fact that that's all they could tear down, the Hebrew sign, before presumably the police came and all ocupants were cleared. The next day all was back to "normal."

As far as the minority not being able to maintain power, you don't need to look very far to see that it's totally not the case. Look no further than South Africa, China, the FSU, and any other place where intimidation was used to maintain power over the masses. The same van very well be said over here, especially when you factor in that most people don't see it as something worth fighting for.

Anonymous said...

Lubavitch is, and has been for a long time, chaos and complete disorder - a ship without a captain. The result is that a minority that organizes itself can have far more power than a disorganized majority, as well as any "administration."

A Simple Jew said...

Hirshel: In your opinion was the recent Shluchim Convention representative of non-Meshichists? If so, besides taking a group photo couldn't they have come out with a unified statement against this group? Everyone was in one place at one time - it sounds like to me that it was a great opportunity missed.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

And the point of that "statement" would be what?

Don't you see? a group as a whole can agree on nothing, especially a group of that size. Some will see at some sort of "rebellion" against the Rebbe, that they somehow are saying that he was mistaken.

A Simple Jew said...

So, we are back to your title...change will never come to 770.

What was that teaching from Pirkei Avos?

"In the place where there are no leaders...." does it end? hmmm...

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

ahh, if only it were that simple, Simple Jew.

That's the only time when there are so-called "leaders" when somebody wants to bring positive change. That's when the ones that want to see the destruction step in and keep you from doing anything.

Anonymous said...

which edition of pirkei avos are you reading from? why does mine not have your quote?

A Simple Jew said...

So how is your outlook of the future of Lubavitch different then Tzemach's?

Chaim said...

As you can see from this posting and the comments Many of us in Crown Heights are embarrassed from what has become of 770 and what has been happening over the years.

It's important to remember that today there are a few different "factions" of Lubavitch.

1) The "Modern" Lubavitch Crowd.
These are the guys who are indifferent to the politics. They all went to College and are working as lawyers, doctors, accountants, helping to support local shuls and charitable originations while just "wanting to be with their family and friends"

2) The Silent "Old Timers"
These are the families who have lived in Crown Heights for 30/40 years. They have become numb to the politics and the fighting and the elections and the court cases and they are just trying to grab a shiur here and there, raise their kids and live their lives as good chassidim.

3) The Loud "Old Timers"
These are the people who are the "shvitzers" the ones who are always INVOLVED or talking about the politics, not doing anything to help the situation but gossiping about it and adding to the flames of chaos. They aren’t willing to do anything, but they are overly involved in hocking about it.

4) The "Meshichistim"
There is NOT one type of Meshichist. A large majority of what we call Meshichistim do not think the rebbe is still alive.

Most Meshichistim believe that based on various sources of Ramba, Gemara, Mishna, Sicha's etc. That Moshiach CAN come from someone who has passed away. This is usually reconciled with Techias Hamaisim being one of the first things that happen when Mosiach starts coming. Then after Techias hamaisim, a Tzadik who once lived could then be anointed Melech Hamoshiach.

Whether or not this makes sense or if it's true, it's isn't apikouris, it's simply a derivation of halacha. In fact in order for this to happen, one who is of this belief has to believe the rebbe is not longer living.

Regardless, this group has become relegated to the background as the next group I'm about to describe has taken over as the loudest in crown heights.

5) The "Tsfatim Meshichistim"

These are students and teachers and active members of the community and schools from Tsfat and other areas in Israel and France. It's a group who do believe that the rebbe is either still alive or in some sort of non corporal form "with them" These people are across the board by all other members of Lubavitch and Crown Heights considered to be nuts.

What has happened over the last 5 years has been that the “normal” Meshichistim have become quiet and gone about their lives and been replaced by the Tsfatim Meshichistim.

Don’t be fooled, it’s not as small as we would like to believe. These bochurim come to America in the hundreds. Along with the bochurim are a small minority of people living in Crown Heights (usually Baal Teshivahs who were so connected to the Rebbe that in some form of psychotic denial they attached themselves to this “non corporal” rebbe is still “with them in 770” belief and Married ungerman who were just 5 or 6 years ago Crazed Tsfatim Bochurim. We also have a sad fair share of teachers and such from those same Tsfatim Meshivistim community.

They have become very loud and thought years of people in crown heights becoming used to the new “status quos” allowed them to take control of 770.

The analogy to “if everyone in office didn’t want a banner the hang from the Senate in DC it wouldn’t” is wrong because in this case the Senators have long lost control of 770.

They have been not only threatened with violence but in many cases been the victim of violence when they did try to wrestle back control of 770. Who do you think is going to win that fight. 10 fat “old timers” in their 50’s, 60’s and 70’s or 250 thin, nuts, crazed, cult like 18 year old bochurim from Israel. We don’t yet have legal control so we can’t just call the police on them. There are two court cases that began from the “cornerstone fights” that happened a little while ago.

The first case ended with the Judge ruling that Agudas Chaseidei Chabad is the rightful owener of 770 and they have the power to do with it as they will. Aguch (Agudas Chaseidei Chabad in short) is not AT ALL Meshichisit. Not even in the slightest and as soon as they win the second court case (which they will) they will be granted permission to physically take it over and implement the changes the core of Chabad does want.

The reason there is such a large silent majority is because unlike other Chassidic sects, Chabad doesn’t want to make itself a joke by beating each other up in their shuls and ripping apart the community forcing everyone to take a side and breaking up Chabad in the process. Trust me, none of the fights in Satmar or Viznits or another sect have worked out well for them. It’s torn them apart.

The sad result of this is that the frum world has taken the silence as agreement with what goes on there and that is really the problem here. I think now you will start seeing more people end that silence. Over the last 6 months the situation in 770 has got so out of control that people are realizing we can not longer be silent.

Again, read the comments here and you will see.

For crying out loud. Shluchim are starting to NOT bring their community members to Crown Heights because they are so embarrassed by what has become off 770.

Why do you think it was the SHLUCHIM who wanted to rip down the signs in 770 last week?

I know there are a lot of Lubavitch haters out there and for them this is a gift. They like to lump everything everyone does into one category and claim if there isn’t any action in Lubavitch “they all think the same and really are a bunch of loons. It’ isn’t true and things are changing for the better. We are just trying not to air our dirty laundry for the world to pint and laugh. Which they are doing anyway, but at least this way, internally the community won’t rip itself apart like it has in Bobov, Visnitz and Satmar.

Anonymous said...

And BH we have room in Lubavitch for all of those factions described (and I would add one more: New Age BT's - the recent and 70's BT's who are into heavy spirituality, health food, Matisyahu and other alternative music etc) - EXCEPT the Creedmoor-Tzfati Meshichisten who resort to violence and are clearly non compos mentis. Those people belong in Creedmoor, Kingsboro, or the zoo.

However, as frustrated as we are, we don't want to lower ourselves to the low level of these crazies and use violence to fight violence. The problem is that besides having lives to lead, the decent majority is also fragmented and that those who could take care of this via the courts etc seem to be taking their time (it might be the system at fault - I don't know).

So, many of us normal ones, yechi or not, have taken refuge in smaller shuls and with our circle of friends; indeed, we just can't seem to get ourselves interested or together in order to clean up 770.

Such is life. If I didn't have to work for my money maybe I'd have time to do something. Ditto for many of my friends. As it is, I'm trying to do my share to build and strengthen a new shul where all types (even an occasional Creedmoor Tzfati who comes to visit) get along - like in the 770 of old.

Anonymous said...

I dont want to call anyone names here, but this is so sad to read. The crux of the problem is all the convoluted thinking; and this further allows the mess to go on without end.
There need to be straight thinking people, with clear opinions, for anything to change - sort of an inverse "Tzafati."
Unfortuantely, you guys that subscribe to the I'm-not-so-meshichist-but-it's-not-so-terrbible-to-be-one-as-long-as-it-is-in-a-nice-way group, are not clear straight thinking are dommed to further occurances of this type and worse until you change that.

Anonymous said...

Itzhak Schier: Using that same logic perhaps I should advise Olmert to leave the West Bank, Golan Heights, and East Jerusalem. I will tell the Israelis that if it is uncomfortable for them there they should go to a comfortable place like Ramat Aviv Gimmel.

Anonymous said...

> The reason there is such a large silent majority is because unlike other
> Chassidic sects, Chabad doesn’t want to make itself a joke by beating each
> other up in their shuls and ripping apart the community forcing everyone to
> take a side and breaking up Chabad in the process. Trust me, none of the fights
> in Satmar or Viznits or another sect have worked out well for them. It’s torn them apart.

One who is quite about evil, is a passive supporter, and is therefore responsible as well. This is simple as that.
Tzfaser apikorsim are responsible for Rav Bistritzki za"l hy"d death. He wasn't scared to do, what had to be done from the begining - to declare a cheyrem. He did what was right and they killed him. Are others scared, or they simply care for their positions, and don't care about Lubavitch at whole? "Ripping apart" is the only solution here, unless those who keep silent prefer the total disintegration of Chabad.

Anonymous said...

A Yid,
"They" didn't kill him. It was one rosha elokist (more extreme than even the standard extremist tzafti), and a real psycho at that. Unfortuanately he also is somehow invelved with the Mossad so he got away with it.

Anonymous said...

Olmert has an army that was once the finest in the world but that he and his predecessor are weakening. We, the silent majority, cannot get even one platoon together, and even if we did, we're not about to use force against our brothers the way Hippo and Smolmert did in Gaza and Amona. That's the difference.

Anonymous said...

Anonimous: He didn't literally instantly killed him. But injuries were bad enough to cause death later. This is just an example, that shows the real nature of this meshugeners.

Anonymous said...

whoever thinks that winning 770 by Aguch will be simple is foolish,alot of blood will spill from both sides unless they close 770 for a few days and deport the Tzfatim thru the court system,and then they will have to deal with the local crazies instigated by Kuti Rapp, Nachman Shapiro(what a waste of talent)I think they can be bought off with money and recognition.

Anonymous said...

The leaders would rather preserve a false facade of Chabad unity than pull down the heretical banners and risk a public feud among Chabadiks.

Most shlichim do not belong ot the heretical yellow-flag movement.

Milhouse said...

The banners are indeed offensive and ought not to be on display in a shul, much less in Beis Rabbeinu Shebebovel, but they are certainly not heretical; to claim that they are is just as much a ziyuf hateyre as is the opposite claim of the extreme messianists.

Anonymous said...

Why can't the faction(s) disgusted with the management of 770 go their separate way(s) ?

Why pretend to be one movement when the truth is clear?

Unless they all really agree behind the scenes.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

The reason they don't go their separate ways is because of the inherent value that is associated with 770. Nobody wants to leave. Unlike other places where one group gets up and leaves to their own building.