Sunday, April 26, 2009
Mission: Saving Torah!
A younger Rav Reuven Grozovsky
A friend of Circus Tent made us aware of the current issue of Yeshurun, where a comprehensive biography of Reb Ruven Grozowski has been compiled, and among other things, they discuss the exile of 2 great Litvishe Yeshivos to far away Kremenchug, Ukraine during WWI. The two were the Knesses Yisroel and Knesses Beis Yitzchok Yeshivos of Kovne-Slabodke, and there may have been three others there too. Luminaries like Reb Chaim Brisker and Reb Moshe Bezalel Alter also wandered hundreds and hundreds of miles from home to escape the German armies. Reb Ruven joined the Yeshiva in 5678, and was soon chosen as RBBL's son in law. The parts in Yeshurun leading up to the period of WW1 are all must-reads as well; they discuss his own diligence in Torah, as well as his fight to pry others away from the snatches of the Haskalah. Some of you may not know this but RRG was a mechuten with the Chossid Reb Avrohom Elya Akselrod of Baltimore, and has a Lubavitcher eynikel living in - of all places, Lakewood. It seems like the Eybershter gave him Schar on this world as well....
In the biography of Reb Baruch Ber, zt"l, they mention the fact that Reb Baruch Ber was in Kremenchug with his Yeshiva. He had traveled there after his shver's passing and stayed on, with the possibility that he'd replace his shver as the Misnagdishe Rov. The RBBL book mentions some kind of friction between the Lubavitcher Chassidim and the Litvishe, that the Lubavitchers wanted to know why they came to K'chug. Are you a katzev that you come here,? they supposedly asked RBB. - Kremenchug was a center of Kosher provisions in those days. They make mention of the Kremenchuger Lubavitcher Rov, HaRav Rafolevitch, - they say it was Moshe, I thought it was Yitzchok Yoel - as "gaining the respect" of RBBL and how they would always red in lernen. The Yeshiva remained there until 1921 (!) and was only forced to leave when the Yevseksia yms"h started causing trouble by calling them counter-revolutionaries etc. So for several years the Yeshivah was in a small Chassidic town far, far away from home. I would imagine that some of the Yidden may not have been to happy with their modern dress either, yet something very unique and special happened here.
In his later years
According to this biography, the Jews - קרי חסידי חב"ד - gave away their last pieces of bread to the yeshiva bachurim. Forget not that in the 1920's millions died in the Ukraine due to Stalin's forced famines. Many, many Jews were among the dead. I guess he figured later that it was easier and more convenient to ship them off to Siberia than to starve them to death. To support hundreds of yeshiva bachurim at that time - bachurim with whom you supposedly have strong disagreements with over policy - takes courage and the utmost devotion, wouldn't you say? Here there were no Chassidim or Misnagdim, there were only frum Jews who spoke one language and learned one G-d's Torah. For the Chassidim this was the greatest thing they could do, support Lomdei Torah. Because Torah is what connects you with the Eybershter, and those that are lucky enough to learn full-time - no small feat in those days - were to be respected and fed and housed, so as not to c"v disturb their seder of learning. Which makes you wonder: why were bachurim in Shanghai - aka ShandeChai - that were not part of the Lithuanian Yeshivah cabal not considered Bnei Torah? Why were those in charge in New York being so petty as to belittle other peoples' learning, call them unworthy and not authentic?! The Jews in Kremenchug knew that the mission here was to save Torah, why couldn't those in New York?!
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Let's not forget that Kremenchug also had a large Breslov population. The Gurarys owned a cigarette factory down there as well.
(I stopped by there this past pesach . . . iy"h the photos will be up on my blog some time this week!)
"Yeshurun" makes no mention of Breslov, and singles out the Gurary family לשבח, how they were so helpful and kind. That's not to say that....
We did have a shmuess about Breslov and Kremenchug way back In 2006 over here
worn out and forlorn
cold and wartorned
lehren der gantzu tug
in far out Kremenchug'
the town was managimous
valiant and couraguous
no fleish and katofill
or cakes adorned with truffles
they were able to give
to help the yeshiva live
did not make a Riv
He worked with great hasmuduh
save yidded from the Haskalah
as reward for this great AVeydeh
eynekelach learning Liketey Teyreh
I apalogize if the poetry is not upt to par. I am working with a moach dikatnus now
Excellent stuff, MAL, especially on so little sleep.
excelent fluff piece to disect about the kj bais hachaim on matzav.com
ayin vtimtza nachas
Chafetz Chaim said they were mizerah Amalek or the eyruv Rav. Look at R' Moshe Shapiro on Kuntrus Kedushas HaTeyreh how this compost with the Rambam's letter how we are guarenteed to be maminim since we were by Har Sinay.
Satmar Rav held that you could say shem rishuim yirkav on yidden re: Rav Kook (who the Chafetz Chaim held was an apikores)
"According to this biography, the Jews - קרי חסידי חב"ד - gave away "
My friend, why do you always jump to conclusions? Krementchug, had Lubavitchers, but of course they were not the only Jews in town.They were probably a minority.I'm sure they were very fine people.I've heard from Novardoker who were stuck in Russia during the war high praise for the Lubavitchers there, but that's not the point.
The Chofetz Chaim and parts of his yeshiva were there too, I believe?
"I would imagine that some of the Yidden may not have been to happy with their modern dress either,"
Ok here again you are mixing in your Hungarian, chnyokish backround and showing a lack of historical feel for what was going on at the time.Lubavitchers did not dress differently than other Jews in that region, that means people did not wear long coats,also bear in mind that at the time,many or most young people did not grow beards, even from the few Lubavitchers in town.
Who is the grandson of R'Reuven who is a Lubavitcher?
"Rav Kook (who the Chafetz Chaim held was an apikores)"
Maybe a Litvack,
What are you talking about??
The Chofetz Chaim would not come into a rABBINICAL KINNUS BECAUSE THEY WERE POGEIA BICHVOID hARAV kOOK.
Well known story, which can be searched on the web
probably a minority? do you have census figures to back that up?
as far as dress goes: no Lubavitcher wore a light brown suit with two tone shoes and shaved. so please leave my background out of this. My background is actually closer to what the Slabodkers looked like.
Later on his life, after he recieved a certain letter from Rav Kook and it was nisgaleh he was an apikores, he cut off all coresondence with him.
The Rebbe avoided big levayes in order that they shouldn't associate him with death and dying. It fit well into the Mashicach thing, right?
Ok no reason to get all ruffled up.
By your backround,I mean Spinka cheiyder, and Boro Park where everyone walked around with shmoineh begudem and peyos.
I said "probably a minority" you ask if I have a census to back that up and I ask if you have.Do you?If not, quit conjecturing.
I don't think Krementchug was a small village, so it makes very little sense that Lubavitchers were the majority.In addition vast percentages of the youth had strayed at the time, I would not be surprised if a big percentage were not even shomrei shabbos
I WILL NOT ALLOW THIS THREAD TO BECOME AN ARGUMENT OVER WHO HELD WHAT ABOUT RAV KOOK. SO LET'S STOP THIS RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW.
Ok, with some googling, Krementchuk, turns out to be quite a large placeeven today pop 230 thousand.During World War II (1939-1945), Kremenchuk suffered heavily under Nazi occupation. More than 90% of the city's buildings were leveled over the course of the war, and most of Kremenchuk's once substantial Jewish population was wiped out.(FROM Wiki)
I don't know of any larger place were Lubavitchers were the majority.Krementchuk mut've have had many thousands of Jews,I'm going to guess 15 thousand (maybe someone can back me up with some history?)
You always rail against Artscrolls hagiography and here you show that you don't do the *least* research and just make up things to fit your agenda.
I may be totally wrong, maybe Krementchug was 95%Lubavitch and all the youth were shomrei shabbos and nobody had ever see a *jew*without a beard or wearing a grey hat, the only problem is you don't know either and you criticize others.
Btw, I've seen pictures of the Rebbe from the chasena in Warsaw and others and he dressed quite fashionably to say the least.
I heard that the L Rebbe learned in the misnagdishe yeshiva in Krementchug
The Rebbe avoided encounters by people who where his contemperaries or where bigger lamdonim. This helped the Larger Than Life persona, right?
פון אלע גדולי עולם האסט נישט מורא טשעפענן, נאר פון קוק שר"י ווילסט די נישט רעדן?! cmon
The Rebbe insulated his chasidim from influences of different religious groups. Hence, when they would protest, it would not be heeded by his constituents, right?
I see you did not post my earlier post.I think it was not very disrespectful.All I said was that you don't do research but accuse others
Now you have proof that Ner Yisroel can produca a velts goan, right?
R'Shlomo heyman who preceded R'Reuven in Torah Vodaas was a magid shiur in "yeshivas Kremenchug" according to the following, so it appears that there was a Litvishe yeshiva there, besides the refugee yeshivas.
היימן נולד בפאריץ' שליד מינסק בשנת תרנ"ב. הוא למד אצל הרב ברוך בר לייבוביץ ראש ישיבת כנסת בית יצחק שהיתה אז בסלבודקה ובישיבת החפץ חיים בראדין ונודע בשם העילוי מפאריץ'. בשנת תרע"ח נישא לבתו של רבי יוחנן רודנסקי מוולוזין שהיה גיסו של רבי שמחה זעליג ריגר המו"ץ של בריסק.
לאחר נישואיו כיהן כר"מ בישיבת קרמנצוג' ובישיבת סמילוביץ
Notice that R'shlomo Heyman was born in פאריץ' a Lubavitcher Shteytel (R'Hillel meparitch)
More googling shows R'Chaim Zimmermans father to be rov in Kremenchug, he was R'BB's shvogger and probably took over after his fathers petirah, when R'BB declined the rabbonus
Maybe A Litvak said...
"One may of-course disagree with his teachings / conclucions / analyses, whatever, but the fact remains: He exhibited an unparalleled mastery of torah."
By mastery, you mean havunuh?
"MAL....WHY didn't your 'Gaon Hador' get around to printing any of his chiddushim (ki rabim heim) while he was still breathing....?"
Good point. Your Rebbe was greater than R' Chaim Brisker; just compare the published stuff?
I will give a msahal that even you can understand
Animal Farm, which was a pretty short book, had more chuchmuh than Des. Crime and Punishment. V'dal
(Animal Farm wasn't a 'rip off' of Sdey Chemed, either)
Sunday, April 26, 2009 2:32:00 PM
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Ok, MAL, (or are you 'Maybe just a Brainwashed Idiot'):
I'd thought it was just your horrendous spelling, but I see you have a problem with basic command of the English language, so lets try this again:
Examples of the difference between OBJECTIVE and SUBJECTIVE. The fact that the LR exhibited unparalleled (by any verifiable standard) mastery of pshat / remez / drush / sod, quoting verbatim for thousands of hours without any open text infront of him, and the fact that many of these expositions were incredibly profound chiddushim in shas & poskim (particularly the siyyumei mesechtos, of, for exmplae mes. eruvin, gitin, & r"h), is an OBJECTIVE fact. This fact is easily verified by thousands of hours of tape, thousands of pages of writings, and much documented evidence from verifiable sources (also on audio/video). Whether the LR was the greatest of his generation, or only 'one of' the greatest, is, by definition the SUBJECTIVE opinion of the respective individual(s).
Now, MAL (MABI?)s claim that RAK was the 'Gaon Hador' is not only, by definition, SUBJECTIVE, it also reeks of unsupported speculation. Why RAK more than RYBS....because YOU say so? Most people I've spoken to who knew the both of them, are adamant that RAK was a great gaon, but not anywhere in the league of R'Yoel the SR. Why should anybody take your claim seriously - because you were stupid enough to question the LR's havono in torah ?! Or do you have some bombshell to drop....is Artscroll about to discover a vault of hidden 'ksovim' that will somehow 'prove' RAKs supposed superiority.
Try not to be such an idiot, and give us something that an OBJECTIVE person might find believable.
R'Mendel Futerfass studied in the Lubavitcher yeshiva in Krementchug in 1920.Apparently Tomchei Temimim from the town in Lubavitch moved there in 1916 probably because of the war.
Tzig wasen't Kremenchug one of the "asoreh goluyois golsa Lubavitch" that the Rebbe spoke about once?
Seems MAL disgrees with the klal of 'ein ldayan eloo ma sheeinov roois'. He obviously uses a different dictinary
Let MAL answer him if you can,he makes a very good argument.
בן ציון דינור נולד בשנת 1884 בחורול, עיירה קטנה באוקראינה, למשפחה שהשתייכה לחסידות חב"ד. בחורול למד בחדר מתוקן שייסד דודו, ובגיל 10 עבר ללמוד בישיבת הומל. בהמשך למד בישיבות קרמנצ'וג וקורסון, בה החל את דרכו כציוני נלהב. בשנים 1896-1898 למד בישיבת טלז אצל הרב שמעון שקופ, ממנו שאב את דרך לימודו המיוחדת. בעקבות שיחות של ראש הישיבה, הרב אליעזר גורדון, בהן התפלמס עם המשכילים, נתעורר בו הרצון לקרוא את דברי המשכילים. בטלז התעוררה תשוקתו לעלות לארץ ישראל ביתר שאת ולכל חבריו הודיע שהוא עתיד לעלות לארץ ישראל כשיהיה גדול. בגיל 14 עבר ללמוד בישיבת סלבודקה, בה הצליח בגיל 14 לסכל תוכנית של הלשכה השחורה לפרסם גילוי דעת נגד הציונות. בתחילת שנת 1900 הגיע לווילנה, בה הוסמך לרבנות בשנת 1902 . בין תשרי לאדר תרס"ב שהה בעיירה ליובאוויטש ברצונו להתרשם מתורת החסידות. בין השנים 1911-1902 עשה פסק זמן בלימודיו ועסק בהוראה ובפעילות ציונית, שאף הביאה למעצרו לזמן קצר.
בשנת 1910 התחתן עם בלהה פיינגולד, מורה שעבדה אתו בבית ספר מקצועי לבנות בפולטבה. בשנת 1911 עזב למשך שנתיים את אשתו הצעירה ובנו הקט לשם לימודים באוניברסיטת ברלין, שם למד היסטוריה עתיקה אצל החוקרים בעלי השם רוטובצב ואויגן טויבלר, שהיה מורהו הגדול. שנתיים נוספות למד באוניברסיטת ברן. ולאחר מכן החל בעבודת הדיסרטאציה שלו, שעסקה בארגון הציבורי של היהודים בארץ ישראל בזמן הקיסרות הרומית, תחת הנחייתו של רוטובצב. מלחמת העולם הראשונה קטעה את לימודיו והוא עבר ללמוד ברוסיה באוניברסיטה בפטרוגרד, ובמקביל עסק בפעילות ציונית וחינוכית. על אף שהגיש את העבודה שלו, לא קיבל את תעודת הדוקטור שהגיעה לו, עקב מהפכת אוקטובר.
I'm posting this very interesting backround of a member of the first Knesset BenZion Dinnor who was from Lubavitch opshtam and went back and forth from Litvishe yeshivos to Lubavitch.It seems that it was much more common than we are led to believe.Apparently quite a few bochurim in Slabodka had Lubavitch beginnings and all the "hate" between Misnagdim and Lubavitch seems to be contrived,
the author of the biography in Yeshurun is R Mordechai M Weingrut, a Litvak. He says רובם יהודים חסידי חב"ד, so take it up with him, please.
מ'קען רעדן פון רב קוק, אבער נישט דא ביי דעם שטיקל. נישט צוליב דעם האב איך געשריבען וועגן די ישיבות אין קרעמענצוג אז מ'זאל וואס די ח"ח האט געהאלטען פון ראי"ה קוק
"He says רובם יהודים חסידי חב"ד,"
How about Kremenchug being from the asoro goluyos?
Obviously there were a few Kehillos, and Rav Zimmerman was PROBABLY Rov of the non-Chassidic community.
Reb Meir Chodosh was also from Paritch. Rav Dessler was from Homel/Gomel, (IIRC) also a very strong Lubavitcher town, maybe that's why he was so drawn back to Chabad Chassidus, despite Kelm.
Was Kremenchug from the "asoro goluyos golso Lubavitch",please answer, cuz I see tomchei temmimim was there in 1916
R'Meir Chodosh, R'Yaakov Kaminetzky,Rav Ruderman, Rav Devoretz, are all Slabodka alumini who had Lubavitch backrounds that I know of, there must've been many more.
What I see is that the Jews got on much better than we are led to believe.
You can add Rav Kook to the list of Litvishe talmidei hayeshivos from mixed backrounds.Same goes for the Rogatchover who studied under the Bais Halevy
Even this article in Yated claims that Kremenchug was a Chassidic town . . .
Tzig, as far as I know Homel did not have a Chassidic majority - it was a far more Litvishe town.
To Maybe A Litvak,
You dont make us look very good and i think you should stop pretending to represent the teyreh velt. My zeyde learnt with Reb Ahron in lakewood for a few years, and he says Reb Ahron had tremendous derech eretz for the lubavichers geonus, and that was why he never stopped the bochrim who used to go to crown heights for shabossim even though he could have. Reb Ahron hated the freediker rebbe, but that was personal. Questioning the lubavichers gadlus bateyreh just sounds silly.
Schneur lately posted about kremenchug
"Tzig, as far as I know Homel did not have a Chassidic majority - it was a far more Litvishe town."Chabad chasidim comprised the majority of the Jewish population of Homel, certainly by the second half of the 19th century (at least in terms of chasidei hanusach). 50+ years of Reb Aizik's Cheif Rabbinate had a strong effect on that town. Just one example: Shabbos before 19 Kislev was called "Shabbos Haggodol" in Homel... Though after the passing of the Tzemach Tzedek it was mostly of the Kopistcher flavor (aka Kopust), much less so of the Lubavitcher flavor (See זכרון לבני ישראל by Rabbi Ysroel Jacobson). One of the Kopistcher Rebbes – Sholom Dovber Schneerson – made his home in Retchitze (a spit away from Homel).
While Homel did have a misnagishe segment (as did most if not all the White Russian shtetelach), as well as Misnagdishe rabbonim, it was still known as a predominantly chasidisher (Chabad) town. Of course one has to remember that at the same time (end of 19th century), communities like Homel saw a mass secularization of their youth who no longer identified with any religious camp.
Mottel, thanks for the link.
I think that people don't realize that the differences between Chasidim and in that part of Europe it was mostly Lubavitch and Misnagdim were not a very big issue.Anti-Semitism was always a much bigger problem as was the yolk of parnosseh."Lubavitch" back there was also not exactly of one cloth, there were Kopust followers etc.Bekitser, Jews married within these groups with little afterthought, they spoke the same language, ate the same foods and were culturally similar.As I mentioned many boys with a Lubavitch backround went to Litvishe yeshivas as basically there was only one Lubavitch yeshiva,Tomchei Temimmim, which was very strict and difficult to get accepted.Also it followed the Lubavitcher line of Chabad and many of the Nusach Ari who have been grouped together as Lubavitch were not.
Today there is a ghetto-ization where groups keep to each other, especially Lubavitch, where for example a kid growing up in Crown Heights will not be very familar with other already frum Jews.
What to be is interesting is how did this come about, this terrible alienation?Realistically here for example we have a story were Tzigs commentary is that leading rabbis of the yeshiva world were actually cruel bigots who had no problem with young Lubavitcher boys starving to death, other posters go further and actually blame deaths on them.On the other hand there have been nasty attacks on Lubavitch from the yeshiva side too, chiefly the notion, back in the day, that Lubavitchers think their Rebbe is Moshiach (which actually proved to be true)
So what exactly is it that has caused this alienation?
A theory I have is the Lubavitch Outreach/inreach, where Lubavitchers insist on trying to get other frum people to join their ranks. (part of this could be ascribed to Lubavitch having to move the headquarters to Warsaw because of the communists, and to reach out to the other chasidic communities to build up a community.These newcomers from a different chasidic group, became more fervent followers than the old Russians.Just a thought, don't know if it's true)
I think this inreach causes a lot of the friction.There is no question that this inreach caused a terrible flare up with the Satmars, thirty years ago.Basically any group actively convincing others to join their side will be met with major resisatnce that will breed hate, eventually.
What do other people think?
Satmar Rov never used this words on Rav Kook, in his teshuvas on Shmita he quotes him as Horav, your ignorance is astonishing
Chesky, the homoginisation of Jewry is something has spread universally across the board. Today the 'Yeshiva' movement that was born of solely Lithuanian stock is made up mainly of Hungariand and Polish Jews disenfranchised from the war. Sefardic communities, once very different, have been lumped together as eidos hamizrach . . .
In the past people defined themselves by the customs and culture of the town or region from which they came; today when every block in Boropark has another Rebbe, and Lakewood is a melting pot of different backgrounds, we cling to superficial titles and such bunk.
Rav Geldzheler in his sefer Emunas Yehoshoua has interesting tidbits about Homel and his FIL Rav Desler, When he arrived in Homel he was told that he should only daven by the Chabad Chasidim in town since the misnagdishe shul is a beehive of haskala. O Obviously the biographers paid by the Desslers in Ohio don"t mention this episode as many other info they like to avoid. Dessler was a big neshama that Hikkir As Borio
Your facts don"t hold water chasidim were always separated from Misnigdim, Look Warsaw Ger/ Gezundheit, Munkatch Reb chaim Sofer, Uyel and the Lev family. for Ukraine look at the sefer on Rosenbaum and town of Plushanitz printed by Berel Levin.
Anon - in Belarus and Lita, Chabad mingled rather openly and married in with the other Yidden.
What do you mean that the yeshiva movement was made of solely Lithuanian stock? Actually, already before the War the "Litvishe" yeshivas closer to the Chasidic areas in Poland had many boys from Chasidic backrounds.R'Elchonon had a whole group of chasidishe boys with their levush!You can see pics in the book by A.Sorasky.The Mir had many Poylishe,Hungarian and Yeckes.
Telz was very Litvish and only had some Lubavitcher backround boys such as R'Shmuel Levitins sons,The Gunick brothers
right, Chesky, and in most of those Yeshivas, save for Baranovitch and Novardik, they were made to get rid of the old world levush and beard. The only reason they weren't in Baranovich was probably cuz the Slonimer Rebbe lived in the same town and he wouldn't be too happy...
Firstly take a name.Secondly explain yourself a bit better.What are you trying to say:That Chasidim did not interact with Misnagdim?In most of Poland it was almost all chasidim, so there is not to much interaction to talk about, in parts of Russia and Lithuania that had chasidic groups like Lubavitch, Karlin, Slonim, the "seperation" was not very significant.People intermarried and lived in close proximity
How many hungarians do you know from MIR ? Lorencz and Berger(Mishkolcz Willi)
Chabad had his period of dillution till Tomchei Temimim brought back it original fire, then you could see some intermarrige. From my reading many zichronois of lita there was no lovefest between the two campls.
I will take a name the day I will feel so
we might not be that patient as to wait till YOU decide. Choose a name now, please.
"A theory I have is the Lubavitch Outreach/inreach, where Lubavitchers insist on trying to get other frum people to join their ranks."
Having grown up in CH during the forties and early fifties, as part of one of the few Lubavitcher families living in CH at the time, I can attest to the fact there was no attempt by Lubavitch "to get other frum people to join their ranks".Most Lubavitcher of the older generation lived in East NY,Brownsville,the Lower ES and Williamsburg.In fact most of the tzibur davening in 770 during those years were non Lubavitcher balei batim.Yes there was Release time ,Mesibos Shabbos and others that were aimed at non religious element in CH and else ware.Shlichus, as we know it today, was with a few exceptions non existent.Most of my classmates again were non Lubavitcher simply because there was a dearth of yeshivos at that time and came from the areas mentioned above.
Sad to say the real blow up between Lubavitch and the Litveshe,yeshivishe velt began with the Shanghai episode covered with so much acrimony and accusations that we have read on this blog.I know this sounds somewhat simplistic but it is the core root of the problem that has festered to long.
Nobody forced anybody to join a yeshiva at the time it was a given that if you chose a yeshiva you''d look like the rest of the talmidim.
Btw, as a Lubavitcher I would not be talking so much about boys being "coerced" to have a uniform Lubavitch look.How about R'Tuvya Bloys kids, do they wear shtreimels or have peyos?Almost all the Yerushalmy Lubavitch boys wo studied in 770 took on the Lubavitch look sans longer peyos, with some notable exceptions like Twersky the Rachmasrtivkas son who's father apparently asked the Rebbe to tell him not to change the chasidish levush.
Just recently a boy I know from the Ohel, who was a Gerer got engaged, the first thing he did by the engagement was to put on a 'kneytsch' hat.Chesed Halbershtam and his brother removed their levush and peyos too.Don't criticize others for the same "sin"
Btw today in Lakewood and every other Litvishe yeshiva,chasidim proudly strut their stuff I think Lubavitch could learn from this
Anon3 "the real one"
Listen, I don't know what happened on Dean St, I do know that Lubavitcher actively tries to reach out to Frum non Lubavitchers.There are whole institutions set up for this.
If you believe that what happened in Shangchai is the root cause, why did Lubavitch sush it up?Don't you think it would have been better to take it on than allow such terrible hate to fester??
Btw, in the other thread about Shangchai, based on the letter at least, Lubavitchs' hatred should be against Rabbis Kalmanovitz and Shmulevitz, when in reality the biggest "villain" in Lubavitchers eyes is R'Kotler and he is not even mentioned! Seems to me that Shanchai is just an outgrowth
One at a time. I apalogize in advanse if I don't answer 'ahl rishon rishon, v'al achron achron'.
Satmar Rov never used this words on Rav Kook, in his teshuvas on Shmita he quotes him as Horav, your ignorance is astonishing'
Kinly identify yourself, mayn tayerah breider'.
In the Michtavim from the Sakmar Rav he refers to Rav Kook as 'ish tzar v'oyev... duroch kashyusoy kioyev...' I don't remember if he refers to him as Rav Tzar v'oyev. You can check it up. Mir Dachsach, it was written to R' Yosef Chaim (Zonenfeld, not the heyntekeh R;yusef Chaim)
Look at Mosheyan Shel Yisruel re: the Rav Kook saga and how he justified someone calling out Yimach Shemoy after his name.
"To Maybe A Litvak,
You dont make us look very good and i think you should stop pretending to represent the teyreh velt.'
Notice the use of the word 'us'.
A few lines later, he says
"Reb Ahron hated the freediker rebbe, but that was personal."
That sentence was written by an outsider. Nice Try.
"Questioning the lubavichers gadlus bateyreh just sounds silly.
Not only are you an outsider, but you are one of Them. You equate not considering him # 1 with questioning his Gadlus BaTeyreh. Very Telling.
What a conspiracy monger, your theories should be used for UFO sigtings
"Especially, when any objective observer recognizes that the most learned of the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s opponents were not exactly his superiors in Torah knowledge, put mildly"
"Whether the LR was the greatest of his generation, or only 'one of' the greatest, is, by definition the SUBJECTIVE opinion of the respective individual(s)."
Please, do me a favor. Before we can continue this discussion, please confirm that it was always the same 'Mike' writing this and his/your identity wasn't stolen like anon the 3
"I do know that Lubavitcher actively tries to reach out to Frum non Lubavitchers.There are whole institutions set up for this."
The only institution that remotely resembles that which you describe is Heichel Menachem in Boro Park which does not actively recruit others to Chabad but does attract those that are interested in the study of Chabad Chassidic philosophy and are mostly from other Chassideshe kreizen.
As to RAK he was much to clever an individual to put his negative views of Lubavitch in writing.Their were some very disparaging remarks that he made about the RAYAT"Z that I would prefer not to put in writing and even Lakewooders do not deny.
-Chesky you are mistaken in your comparison:
A chiddisher in Lakewood is just that, a chassidisher bochur who happens to learn in a misnagidshe yeshiva. He feels no desire to become a misnaged (for obvious reasons), and though his attitude and style may be effected by his his surrounding, he will continue upon his chosen path.
A bochur from a different background, who is now a Lubavitcher, wishes to take on the minhagim, levush etc. of Chabad . . . hence - for right or for wrong- the reason for a change in appearance.
"is Artscroll about to discover a vault of hidden 'ksovim' that will somehow 'prove' RAKs supposed superiority."
Ever hear of Machon L'Mishnas R'Ahron. Have you ever went through a shtickle? How far through did you get? How much time, besides for preparing the sugya (with open texts) did it take you to go through two or three columns?
"Ok, MAL, (or are you 'Maybe just a Brainwashed Idiot'):
I'd thought it was just your horrendous spelling, but I see you have a problem with basic command of the English language, so lets try this again:"
Maybe they aslo brainwashed me not to care about proper spelling. Maybe they threw that in with grammer, proper expression (verbal and written), vocabulary and precision in language; particualarly to syntax and form. WHUHT?
"but I see you have a problem with basic command of the English language,"
Your new post, like the previous post, is in a very high, sophisticated, elaberate.. etc. English and your attempt at clarification is an exercis in futility, unless you write in a more simple and coherent manner; for the plebians.
"so lets try this again:"
Yup This is de-ja-vu all over again. I could've predicted a bechinah of 'kikelev shuv el kiyoy' in your post.
Anon 3 "the real"
I'm in the unenviable task of arguing with someone who has been on planet earth much longer than myself.
After this disclaimer,I will attempt to answer.
I find it difficult to believe that you actually claim that Lubavitch does not actively try and reach out to Frum non Lubavitchers and that Heichal Menachem only "remotely resembles" such a description.Maybe my wording was wrong,Lubavitchers call it "hafotzas hamaayonos" which according to Lubavitch is what''ll bring Moshiach.There are many individuals involved in such outreach.
About your second point:I asked you that if Shanchai was the reason for the alienation between Lubavitch and the Yeshiva world, how come R'Ahron Kotler is the big "villain"in Lubavitch when he is not even mentioned, to which you answered "he made disparaging remarks about Rayatz" What has that got to do with Shanchai??You claim that Shanghai is the "root cause" not disparaging remarks.Which one is it?
Lastly, you claim that R'Ahron made disparaging remarks that even "Lakewooders don't deny" :How would I be expected to know if what you saying is true? Who are these "lakewooders" that don't deny what "he said" (I also don't know how the can deny things that were never put into writing and presumably not known.I.e how can anyone deny that somebody said something if we don't even know what he said?)
So lets go back and try and understand what causes such terrible animosity, shall we?
Even if what you claim is the "root cause" didn't it happen 65 years ago, isn't that long enough to patch up?On the other hand if my theory is correct i.e there is a constans attempt to infiltrate yeshivos and communities to win them over to Chabad, than it's understood why the tension still exists.
The Moshion Shel Yisroel(Gelbman)is a cronological Liar
"Examples of the difference between OBJECTIVE and SUBJECTIVE"
Start the Drumrolls.
"The fact that the LR exhibited unparalleled (by any verifiable standard) mastery of pshat / remez / drush / sod, quoting verbatim for thousands of hours without any open text infront of him, quoting verbatim for thousands of hours without any open text infront of him, and the fact that many of these expositions were incredibly profound chiddushim in shas & poskim (particularly the siyyumei mesechtos, of, for exmplae mes. eruvin, gitin, & r"h), is an OBJECTIVE fact."
"unparalleled (by any verifiable standard)"
By 'unparalleled' you mean that he was # 1 or you mean that based on all the 'verifiable standards' that you are aware of, it is unparalleled? Please be clear
"quoting verbatim for thousands of hours without any open text infront of him,"
Is a telmprompter in the back of the room considered 'infront'?
Did he take a break in middle of the thousands of hours?
(Regarding the thousands of people who were listening: what percentage of them were able to follow the bulk of the sichos- w/o prior knowledge of the sources?)
"and the fact that many of these expositions were incredibly profound chiddushim in shas & poskim"
The 'fact' that it was 'profound' is also an objective standard? What do you mean by the word 'many'? Some of them weren't profound? And, btw, how much is 'many'?
"(particularly the siyyumei mesechtos, of, for exmplae mes. eruvin, gitin, & r"h), is an OBJECTIVE fact."
It was only an objective fact regarding those mesechtos and not the others? Please enlighten me
"Now, MAL (MABI?)s claim that RAK was the 'Gaon Hador' is not only, by definition, SUBJECTIVE, it also reeks of unsupported speculation."
Mike. I guess you weren't even born the day before tomorrow. Every (or 'many', v'dal)'bar bey rav' have heard that Gaon Hador was the Gaon Hador.
"Why RAK more than RYBS....because YOU say so?"
Why did a 'Bob like you pick the Bostener. Why not R' Moshe? Doesn't your propoganda consider R' Moshe to be an admirer of The Rebbe?
"Most people I've spoken to who knew the both of them, are adamant that RAK was a great gaon, but not anywhere in the league of R'Yoel the SR."
Let me guess. The people you spoke to have kikrazeled pahyes.
"Why should anybody take your claim seriously - because you were stupid enough to question the LR's havono in torah ?!"
Interesting: the same person who continoually calls it 'my claim' is the one who doesn't realize that havunuh is pertenant to this discussion.
Additionally, Mike the 'Bob, seems to conflate 'not having the world's greatest havunuh' (vis a vis the Gaon Hador)with 'questioning' the havunuh.
Please, help me out. I am like the proverbial person drowning in a sea of ignorance and lack of huvunah, and needs some one to extend to me a branch of life.
Does The Rebbe have more yediyos than the Rogochover (who didn't publish nearly as much)
Does he have greater havunuh than R'Chaim Brisker?
(BTW, you owe me a token of gratitude for incorporating the word and concept of 'havunuh' in your lexicon and world view. I hope you understand. V'dal)
Parenthetically, the Gaon Hador said a seven prong shtickle (shmaytzeh?) on each night of sheva brachos.
At a later date, he met the Rogochaver on a train and told him that shtickle. It only took him an hour to tell it to the Rogochaver. The latter asked him who he was, to which he answered 'a Balehbus fuhn Kletz', to which the Rogotchover replied s'is nisht shlecht for a balehbus'.
"As to RAK he was much to clever an individual to put his negative views of Lubavitch in writing.Their were some very disparaging remarks that he made about the RAYAT"Z that I would prefer not to put in writing and even Lakewooders do not deny."
He was smart enough not to write it, but not smart enough not to tell it to people who can keep their collective mouths shut?!
Definetly not the Gaon Hador
(Maybe he only wrote it to people that were smart enough not to tell others about it? Maybe leters do exist somewhere? Maybe Maran didn't have time to write all those letters and just made slight variations on letters from the Gaon Hador? The possibilities are endless)
The Moshion Shel Yisroel(Gelbman)is a cronological Liar'
It seems like Rabbi Kalmanowitz and the Lubavitch mishpachos, are in agreement on who is considered a true ben Torah?
Why did the Litvaks hold funds from the Luavitcher bachurim?
Did they want to see them die?
They were aware of the terrible situation and they knowingly allowed the Lubavitcher(s) to die?
Would they have sent funds to Temimim if the Mir yeshiva wasn't there?
Did you delete one of my posts?
teleprompter was just a joke. ich bin shildik
"I would imagine that some of the Yidden may not have been to happy with their modern dress either,"
Of course, the picture of the Lubavitcher Bochurim in Shanghai shows that other than the beard, they were dressed the same as the Mirre students!
I counted at least 2 lange rekalch, that's like the Mirrers?
just a correction the ukrainian famines caused by stalin were in the 1930's. there was a russian famine in 21 caused by the civil wars but it wasnt caused by stalin
Tzig, on a serious note
The Bundists claim that they had a chelek in the Shangchay hatzaloh; heard it from one of them, not from a Litvak. Might of been only regarding getting them to San Fran
Do you know if they stake a claim in the saving of the Chabad buchorim?
Did the Lubavitcher bachurim also go the San Fran? Just Curious
Also, how did they fheer with the safek yom kippur. Did they keep two days? Who did they ask?
Interesting, Toplin, a Lakewooder who wrote a sefer re the time line- in the intro, says something how the Brisker Rav came out with a different day for Yom Kippur than a certain Mizrachi rabbi (very long name). Since many people over there followed the psak of the Mizrachi rabbi, the different day, he didn't want to anounce his psak, taht would cause people to fast. He was worried about the pikuach nifashos.
There are a lot of kashyos on that version, particularly, the Chazon Ish came out with his psak, etc
Again, what did the Chabadtzker bachorim do, any clue?
(And those recklach must have been years old, in the photos, that was before the Made by the Chinks days
Thanks for the info, afdfc.
The Lubavitcher Bochurim were very close to Reb Shimele Amshonover, zt"l, and were told to follow his advice. (Some say that they just saw what the Mirrers did and did the opposite, but that may be an attempt at humor only)
I believe they all went through San Fran; that was the only way, as far as I know.
Do you mean Tikutzinski? He wasn't Mizrachi.
Which Bundists exactly? The Arbeiter Ring in New York?
-MAL I believe they kept one day Shabbos but avoided doing any malachos d'oraisa on the other day. Yom kippur I'm not sure.
The bochurim wore their rekalach despite the age and conditions of the garments because the FR had told them not to change their levush for kurtze rekalech or the like.
I think it was the Arbeiter Ring. don't remember, honestly, only that they were big into yiddish and had the worst sinah for yiddishkeit I have ever seen.
Don't remember the name. T, was a yerushalymer, wasn't he?
What I remember is that the Rov played hardball with him. He dissemenated a public rebuttal on the Chazon Ish, the Chazon Ish answered him back and then he wanted to answer back the counter. The Rov stepped in and threatened him that hill go out with the gantze tekifus against him if he doesn't back down, something like that. Might be similar to the R' Noel saga with the Chazon Ish on eyruvin
Tzig, btw, I mentioned before, that once heard that the Amshinover considered taking R' Leib Bakst for an eydem over there. If anybody knows if that was true, or feasible, please send smoke signals
I once saw a documentary about yidden in Shangchay in the war. Only around a minute was dediacted to the frummer over there. Who supported everyone else? Did they suffer from epidemics
BTW, my impression is that all the frumer lived in close proximity to each other; maybe the same ghetto.
There is a story where they were considering moving locations to a safer place. Due to the fact that the transition would entail a lot of Bittul Teyreh, R' Chatzkel was against it. The end of the story was that the other city suffered terribly from Allied bombings; something like that. Hey, if all the frumer intenionally kept together, you know what that meant? That the Mir yeshiva's decision to stay, indirectly saved the live of most of the Chabad bachurim.
I know of a Mirrer, who in the later years of his life, when he lost his daas, iz nisht given ba'm zinnen'. He would repeat to himself, again and again, the words R' Chatzkel said at that juncture and at that crucial point in the history of Klal Yisroel: 'Teyre iz der grester shmirah'.
"I find it difficult to believe that you actually claim that Lubavitch does not actively try and reach out to Frum non Lubavitchers and that Heichal Menachem only "remotely resembles" such a description.Maybe my wording was wrong,Lubavitchers call it "hafotzas hamaayonos" which according to Lubavitch is what''ll bring Moshiach.There are many individuals involved in such outreach."
You spoke of "many institutions"to which I replied that I only know about one such institution which is Heichel Menachem.The use of the word "remotely" was used because 1)Heichel Menachem is focused not only on the study of Chabad Chassidus but on the philosophy of all branches of Chassidus.2)there is no one running through the streets of BP to "chap nishomes".Whoever wants to avail themselves of the study of Chassidus is free to do so of there own volition.
The words that RAK used in his denigration of the RAYAT"Z came about as a result of the Shanghai episode.I was told so by a number of Lakewood individuals who were proud of in their retelling of this dismal episode and the words that RAK used.If you choose not to believe it, thats your right but I know it to be true.
The hour is late and as much as I would like to explain the concept of "kisheyofutzu maynosecho chutzo", I'll have to leave that for another time.
Did Reb Chatzkel have a shaychus with Reb Shimele Amshinover?
Don't know. I'll be able to find out in a few days
what happens in a few days?
I am serious now. Would you believe that one of your Rebbes, the FR or the other one, would be callous to the lives of other yidden? Would you believe it, if someone claimed they heard his followers boasting about it? Would you believe it, or would you say, either it's a fabrication, or there is much more to the story?
Keep in mind that the Gaon Hador was heavily involved in the saving of a lot of freyer yidden and some mishumadim
please email me at firstname.lastname@example.org
How did the meeting between the Tzig and MAL go?Can we get a report?
Hopefully being the Tzig is a Hunk used to a bissel breitkait the beer flowed freely,the Russians you know are a wee bit "carg'
I thought it was the Polish who were "carg," no?
Re the Rebbe and Kremenchug --
There was a "B'didi Hava Uvda" from R' Ari Smith in Kfart Chabad about 3 years ago. It was either about the Sridei Aish (RYY Weinberg) or R' Chaim Zimmerman and the Rebbe (interviews with their talmidim?), and clearly he does mention that the Rebbe learned for a bit in Kremenchug (not TT).
There is a theory, that the reason as to the Rebbe never meeting the Rebbe Rashab (although he was 18 by the latter's histalkus), and -- if you want to take it a bit further -- the fact that the Rebbe never learned officially in a TT branch [aside from his home-tutoring which surpassed others]-
may be attributed to an Ayin Hara etc. (similar to the Alter Rebbe seldom to meet the Besht, spare at age 3).
Maybe A Litvak,
but certainly a loser,
with no real answers,
he choose a doozer.
Why don't you answer Mandels questions ?
Address the issue he raises [basically that you pick and choose your gedolim at will] and a normal debate can proceed. He made a very simple point, just answer him if you can.
Your right.I really am not privy to exactly what occurred during this dark period.However I am sure about the words RAK used when speaking about the RAYaT"Z.This is no fabrication of the "Lubavitcher spin machine" but is wll known and was confirmed to me by a number of Old Lakewooder talmidem and I kid you not.
Figures. MAL and the rest of his brainwashed clones will defend any cruel vicious and unjewish behavior as long as its directed at somebody else. But question the credentials of his arbitrary gaon hador, and he gets in a tizzy with no answers.
Maybe A Litvack or maybe just a 1/2 litvishe mamme & 1/2 poylishe construction worker. That would explain why he cant answer a few poshute shaylos. Or maybe too much cholov akum did it to him?
I counted at least 2 lange rekalch, that's like the Mirrers?”
On AVERAGE the TT Bocurim were dressed more conservative. But there wee bochurim with ties, light suites and hats etc. So while in general the TT Bochurim may have been more conservative in dress, there was nothing amongst the Mirrer Bochurim that you wouldn’t find amongst the TT Bochurim (although perhaps not to the same extent). But it makes it unlikely that dress was a major issue.
RE Yom Kippur. They ate less than a shiur on the second day. A few fasted straight for two days.
In Mandel v. MAL:
Thousands of yungerlait in Lakewood spend hours every day in critical thinking, and "many" believe that they are the real geonei hador.
The thousands of chasidim in Lubavitch believe that "shchina medaberes mitoich groinoi shel moishe", and would never voice a hava amina that the Rebbe might be wrong in anything.
Now you tell me which audience are the more objective judges?
If one looks closely at the initial arguments, (I use the word 'argument' very liberelaly)Mike the *'Bob made a subjective assertion
*Both parents were 'Bobs, unless he had a geyrus
He claimed that the Gaon Hador was clearly inferior in Torah knowledge to the present Rebbe and then rambled how judging scholarship was subjective, etc..
That assertion was never proven.
It is crucial to your beliefe system that the 'detractors' were no where near The Rebbe in learning, hence the irrelevance of their opinions, etc.
The opinions of the Gedaley Lita re: the Geoynes of the Gaon Hador is meaningless to you. After all, they were all Litwaks just patting each other on the back. They never would have held like that if the Gaon Hador didn't shave, right?
Me personally, if there was another Gaon, who was greater than the Gaon Hador, and was probably a lamed vuvnik/secret identity, then my belief system is still not shaken. I won't have to increase the dose of Valium.
I thought Maybe was the Gaon Hador. You mean there are thousands like me?
in Mandel vs MAL
Mandel made the initial allegation, therefore the onus is on him to prove his position, right?
your poetry give poets a bad name. V'dal
By Chabad, the ikkur was always on the aveydeh aspect of nister. (Pnimius was a heichy timtzah) Many of the old school Kabalists in other circles looked elsewhere for the real limud of pnimius.
To clarify: Only "many" think they are the geonei hador, not all the thousands.
As the only member of Ir Hakodesh to grace us with his presense, I vote for Maybe as the geon hablog
Friendly: I assume you mean Lakewood? He's far from the only one...
you're somewhat of an enigma to me here. You seem very much at home with Lubavitch concepts and terminology, yet you often sound so anti!
There indeed needs to be more of a discussion here about Kremenchug and Lubavitch in general; maybe soon.
A little bird happened to tell me last night that D Eliach, infamous author, in his latest book writes about Lubavitch and Kremenchug in not such a positive manner. Leave it up to him to find trash, after all he is a trash collector.
It is already Monday, so I think it is already time of the 'vort' of the week.
1. The Kohen Gadol made a hagruluh with the two sieyrim. Zugt der Rebbe, one Sihehr was LaHashem and the other was Laazuzel (to Eisav, V'dal). Anybody with an 'ehver' is bothered by why on Yom Kippur are we fahnumin with the Azuzel. There are many answers to this question, ahvul gahm ahniy wants to be migaleh my cheleck in this
2. We know that the left hand symbolizes the mekbel (eyshuh) and is also Midas Hadin. The left hand is mirachek, hence the siehr that was picked out by the left hand of the Kohen Gadol, was 'sent out'. Conversely, the right hand was mivarehr the siehr LaHashem with was used as a karbon and a kapuruh, two things that are both (really one) instrinsict acks of Hiskarvus. Korbun brings is closer (hence the name kurbon) and a kapuruh is mechpaer on sins that make a pirud between us and Kaviyochel
3. Let's continue this 'kavh' further. A chuchum will listen and enjoy.
4. Everybody on this blog have heard many times that the yesod of the sin of Adom was the eyruv/intermingling of toyv v'rah, bad and good. Additionally, it is well known that our aveydeh is to be misaken the chete Eytz Hadaas. Hence, our avoydeh, bayfen pnimiy, is to be mivarer the Rah from the Tov (or vice versa).
5. Now we have a better understanding in the inyun we adressed in #1 regarding the necessity of the siehr lazuzel on Yom Kippur. On the holiest day of the year, the biggest avoydeh is to seperate the bad from the good. This is a heilegeh aveydeh that can only be performed by the Kohen Gadol. (Whose 'left hand' is superior even to the right hand of the Sgan, look at begining of Turaph Bikalpey
6. Now we have another 'licht' unto why the Kohen Gadol had to be completely involved in prishah and taharah, for a time before Yom Kippur. The seperation of bad from good can only be performed by someone who is completely absorved in Kedusah, with no outside and secular influences. Only such a person, is in a position to have clarity on what is 'rah' and the way to rid and speperate it
7. In the years in the midbar, the kohen Gadol had the ability to enter the kodesh kodoshim when ever he wanted. It was no coincidence that this was at a time when the klal was learning full time. V'dal
8. We have seen an echoa of this phenomenon in our times. A certain Adom Godel, who dedicated several decades of his life to total immersion in Teyreh, was zoycheh to have a 'bechinah' of Yom Kippur the whole year. He was zeycheh to be mivarer the rah, seperate it from the toyv, and through that process, he cleansed the Toyv from the outside influence that remained michutz lamachaneh
8. The stronger right hand continuouslly brought the toyv closer to der Aibeshter. Like the siehr lazuzel, the toyv was closer via the 'harchuku' done with the left hand
9. The words of a chuchom are sweet
Hirshel my dear,
Why so tight-lipped about your midnight rendevousz with MAL....we're itching to hear some details.
I need said MAL's approval to discuss the details of our meeting...
I'll try and address your deficiencies one at a time, as you obviously have difficulty with the bigger picture. Hopefully you can then digest a point at a time.
1. I didn't hear that the Divrei Yoel was a bigger gaon than RAK from anybody with ringle-peyos - I heard it from a frumme litvak who learnt in the best yeshivos, is today a very wealthy lawyer, who sits all day without a yarmulke (even on the walk to his car - the sky must qualify as 'tachas kippas habinyan!'), eats salads in treife restaurants (never the dressing c"v), and is a big macher on various vaadim. Oh, but he NEVER misses a day of daf-yomi (I assume he puts on the yarmulke for that).
His hate for the LR is second only to yours (he was well brainwashed too) - the LR's agenda of 'geon yaakov' and proud Judaism doesn't sit well with this ben-teyreh - he loves the company christmas party way too much for that.
Why not write up a some kind of report of your meeting, run it by MAL for his haskomo and report back.
I'm working on it AWS.
Can I ask you to tone down the rhetoric?
MAL never said he "hates" anybody, you actually come across as quite full of "hate"
Also please spare us your twisted logic: "You heard from a frummeh Litvak who doesn't wear a kappel"
There is no such beast as a "frummeh Litvak" who does not wear a kappel.You probably mean either a fellow who once attended a black hat yeshiva or a grad of YU in both cases nobody would call them "frummeh".
Secondly, the mere fact that he attended some yeshiva gives him credentials to decide who was the bigger go'on?
Thirdly, why do you get side tracked about the lack of kappel, the salad he eats and the company kratzmech party?
Hey, you sound like a kool-aided,'Bob baal teshuva who is totally ignorant of the Orthodox world beyong Lubavitch.
And now, MAL, onto your more bizarre assertions, again, one at a time.
1. In my very first post in this discussion on the קיינע בני תורה thread, I acknowledged RAK's geonus. What I said was that there were many other (depending on whon one asks) equal or greater geonim / manhigim who disagreed with him on many key issues. You seem unable to accept this, as it doesn't jive with your broad education, and thats too bad.
2. You then sought to bolster your jihad against chabad by introducing various other litvishe rabbonim who hated chabad as well. To which I pointed out that nobody in chabad (nor many other groups) really cares, even as each group believes its respective path to be 'the' derech - no big deal.
3. The original issue at hand was whether (even if some 'godol' approved it) it was ok to exclude lubavitcher yeshivaleit from pikuach-nefesh funds. Instead of admitting the possibility that your 'godol hador' du jour may have made a mistake (if it emerges that this is what RAK sanctioned- I said IF), you chose to shoot the messenger by denigrating the LR and stupidly arguing that he somehow lacked in 'havunuh'. Do you realize how patently absurd this sounds- someone whose awesome mastery of torah, on hand all the time- all of it, should have his understanding of torah questioned by someone like you or your peon programmers ?! So all the thousands of hours of quoting verbatim and teaching torah, and siyyumei mesechtos, and rambam, and biurei chassidus and zohar, and all without an open sefer on the table.....not to mention the many recorded meetings with rebbes and roshei-yeshivah, where the LR picked up whatever inyan they were discussing and even gave chiddushim- all this total mastery is questionable because your little bomb-shelter and wardens didn't 'hold' of him?!! Even you must realize how bizarre this sounds. Wake up Toto- we're not in Kansas anymore.
4. Which led me to the fact that you can't distinguish between the 'objective' to the 'subjective'. This is quite unfortunate for one who's probably convinced himself that he has a gemoro-kop. And again, instead of addressing my point, you chose to hide behind juvenile insults (which I've gratuitously returned, albeit with the benefits of some education).
5. My initial point having been, and remaining, that irrespective of who is/was ultimately right or wrong, different shittos are entitled to their opinions al-pi-torah, and that doesn't mean we should try to starve those who disagree with us. I did question certain of your 'gedolims' ahavas-yisroel, which you've very kindly confirmed for us in the last few pages, by parroting some of their hateful invective, as well as the multiple sources who can assure us that they do/did indeed hate (the) chabad/LR.
Zu torah vezu schoro?
More soon, I'm sure you're a glutton for punishment.
You seem to enjoy writing long rambling posts...........
I don't think anybody here enjoys reading them.
Try some brevity for once
On the issue of my yichus, for MAL and his partisan intellectual ilk.
First of all, it doesn't really matter who's saying something, provided it's oisgehalten un farklert, so why the silly insinuations. I will tell you this much- I shtam from a more serious line of bnei-torah than (probably) any of you here, my father was the star talmid of a certain litvishe RY who has departed quite some years back, and I was raised on the line. I was not, however raised on hate, rather to respect the right of all frumme yidden to their shittos, and that we don't get bigger by standing on anybody else. You people might (again) bother comparing the writings/talks of the LR during the 50/60/early 70's where he inveighed strongly against the shittos of R'Kook and the zionists, but remained totally respectful. Shas is full of examples, and just one is, as I mentioned earlier, 'boshni midivreichem beis shammai'(chagiga 22b). This was always the derech of chassidim, generally "ne'elovim v'einom olvim". But let's face it, R'Yehoshua wouldn't have made it in todays yeshiva-velt - he didn't hate enough people, issue enough cheromim, etc.
"Bobs r funny! said...
You seem to enjoy writing long rambling posts...........
I don't think anybody here enjoys reading them.
Try some brevity for once
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My posts all assume an IQ of at least 95. I'm sorry if that excludes you.
"my father was the star talmid of a certain litvishe RY who has departed quite some years back,"
Wonder who decided that he was a "star".Must've been very objective.
Mikey,I feel like I'm back in the infantile stage, arguing who's father is stronger.
What is about 'Bob that attracts infantile kool-aided morons to join it's ranks?
Great defender of the "faith"
"And now, MAL, onto your more bizarre assertions, again, one at a time."
It is the real 'Mike'. It is obvious from the degrading and condecending ad hominems. Talk about bittul
"I acknowledged RAK's geonus."
Good thing you acknowledged it. I am impressed. This shows that you respected him, and subsequently, all of your criticism is one big 'vuhn des veggen'. That is clear
"What Mike said was that there were many other (depending on whon one asks) equal or greater geonim / manhigim who disagreed with him on many key issues."
Did you forgot your statement that the LR's criticisers where inferior to him in Torah Knowledge
Every one knows there were disagreements. Must be that you were michadesh that the others were greater than the Gaon Hador. You offered conclusive evidence supporting that notion? I guess Tzig deleted those posts
"You seem unable to accept this, as it doesn't jive with your broad education, and thats too bad."
Another condescending and sarcastic statement. In middle of sefirah, nuch dme tzu? (Only Litvaks have a constant 'itch' remindier to the severity of the days we are in. V'dal) You obviously never read the Gaon Hador's shmuezen on misas talmeday R' Akiva.
"2. You then sought to bolster your jihad against chabad by introducing various other litvishe rabbonim who hated chabad as well."
Wow. What a gross distortion and misrepresentation of Maybe's comments. The intellectual dishonesty is appalling. You have no shame. I hope you are a rachmon or a goymel chesed. V'dal
(BTW, the Rov held that lacking one siman is proof that one is not a yid, Rachmunah litzlan. Please produce the proper doucmentation that you had a RCA geyrus. V'dal)
You, mayn tayereh, was the one who provided us with a list of 'good Litvaks'. (Hey, isn't that oxymoronic). I demonstrated that the people on your lists did not satsify your standard of 'good'.
V'oyd, I mentioned comments that were critical of the shitas and honhuges and you conflated it with hate. What is next, those who argued with the Gaon Hador also hated him?!
"To which I pointed out that nobody in chabad (nor many other groups) really cares, even as each group believes its respective path to be 'the' derech - no big deal."
That ain't gonna work in this forum. The 'Bobs exhibited greater expertise in Maran's letters than any Litwack on this side of the Atlantic
MAL VS. MANDEL
You need to answer his questions directly, if anyone can take you seriously. Why can't you tell us what proves RAK being greater than any other Gadol in his time?
Maybe if you lightenup the tone, people will be more open to your points.
Anonymous Maybe A Litvak said...
"I hope you are a rachmon or a goymel chesed. V'dal
(BTW, the Rov held that lacking one siman is proof that one is not a yid, Rachmunah litzlan. Please produce the proper doucmentation that you had a RCA geyrus. V'dal)"
So based on this MAL & half of Ponevezh are not really yidden?
WOW. I thought you guys only try to delgitimize ithers, LOL. (NOW TELL US ALL YOUR HATE IS REALLY LOVE!)
"3. The original issue at hand was whether (even if some 'godol' approved it) it was ok to exclude lubavitcher yeshivaleit from pikuach-nefesh funds."
So far so good. You presented the Chabad view of facts with a high degree of clarity
"Instead of admitting the possibility that your 'godol hador' du jour may have made a mistake (if it emerges that this is what RAK sanctioned- I said IF),"
I actually provided certain cogent arguments. Look at what I said regarding the sugyas in the end of Horeyos.
You guys are drooling over that IF. That comports with the nisht-farginin and knowledge in your heart of hearts (or a safek, next to your hirhurey avodeh zarah, V;dal)that the Gaon Hador was, how do I say it, the Gaon Hador
"you chose to shoot the messenger by denigrating the LR and stupidly arguing that he somehow lacked in 'havunuh'"
The present Rebbe was the messenger? Again you are being unclear. Do you work for the State Department?
For the last time: Maybe never said that the LR 'lacked' havunuh. (Incidently, this conversation has one questioning how much some of the listeners actually understood the amamorim. V'dal)I said that in shatzing up Geoynes, 'havunuh' is a material element and Mike has not adequatly adressed
"not to mention the many recorded meetings with rebbes and roshei-yeshivah, where the LR picked up whatever inyan they were discussing and even gave chiddushim"
Yes, he was a genious. But there were many people who could dazzle or hold their own, on the spot, with big yidden, on any sugya. R' Ahron Kreizer (Who der Bostener considered giving over his shiur to) or R' Shaya Shimanovitz and many other bney Teyreh who were in Shangchay in the war
"all this total mastery is questionable because your little bomb-shelter and wardens didn't 'hold' of him?!!"
What are you talking about. What bomb-shelters and wardens?
They all agread that he was a genious. He couldn't have such an influence if he was an intellectual lightweight.
"Even you must realize how bizarre this sounds."
Nope. I am brainwashed. Even though he wasn't the greatest posek, he still is Mashiach, because he is the greatest leader
"Wake up Toto- we're not in Kansas anymore."
Toto was also sleeping? Don't remember
Rav Schach spread enough hate so the lubabs (or anyone else) doesn't need to be expert in his letters to see that. Just look at you, aren't you what Rav Schach tried to breed ?
ps. as so many keep asking you, why can't you, clearly please, so us lesser benei teyreh might understand, answer his questions ?
The Gedoley Lita considered him to be the Gaon Hador. After the war, the Rav held like that to. What more do you need?
"I acknowledged RAK's geonus."
Good thing you acknowledged it. I am impressed. This shows that you respected him, and subsequently, all of your criticism is one big 'vuhn des veggen'. That is clear"
I think all that is clear is that you throw insults to cover for your lack of real answers, and that Mike has no problem acknowledging both sides of a coin. Plenty of gedoylim disagreed with Rav Ahron on many issues, and his insults didn't become anybody elses problem. Nor do yours.
"4. Which led me to the fact that you can't distinguish between the 'objective' to the 'subjective'."
Actually, I humbly questioned your 'objective' standards. Instead of enlightening me, you insult my lack of havunuh. You must really hate me
"This is quite unfortunate for one who's probably convinced himself that he has a gemoro-kop."
No. I didn't conince myself, I was brainwashed that I have a gemarah-kop
"And again, instead of addressing my point, you chose to hide behind juvenile insults (which I've gratuitously returned, albeit with the benefits of some education)."
What do you mean? You were educated in gratuitously returning insults? Do you have certification that varify your credentials or the shiksa threw that out together with the RCA papers
Maybe A Litvak said...
The Gedoley Lita considered him to be the Gaon Hador. After the war, the Rav held like that to. What more do you need?
Monday, April 27, 2009 2:54:00 PM
How about some proof. Its ot like anybody signed a Kol Koreh accepting his authority,certainly not the Rav (whom I follow and believe was the Gaon Hador). Or do you just make stuff up ?
would you say that he was the GH even in the times of Reb Ruven and Reb Moshe Feinstein?
"5. My initial point having been, and remaining, that irrespective of who is/was ultimately right or wrong, different shittos are entitled to their opinions al-pi-torah, and that doesn't mean we should try to starve those who disagree with us. I did question certain of your 'gedolims' ahavas-yisroel, which you've very kindly confirmed for us in the last few pages, by parroting some of their hateful invective, as well as the multiple sources who can assure us that they do/did indeed hate (the) chabad/LR.
Zu torah vezu schoro?"
I already adressed your (sole) and initial point on that post.
I never gave you any quotes from the Gideayim that were hateful. Nor did I make any hateful remarks. I made choyzek, but I don't engage in virulent diatribes.
"More soon, I'm sure you're a glutton for punishment."
You punished me already by mimicking my unique style of numbering and my, rather broad, poetic liscence.
I hope the future punishment is less severe.
Why don't you quit while youre only 1/2 exposed. Your vile manners and vicious nature can only come from one place, and it isnt a Bes Midrash.
Disgusting, and during sfira of all times.
I wonder how MAL is going to answer the challenges. He claimed that 'huvunuh' is crucial and he also said that we need an objective test. Since there is no objective test to proove 'havunuh', it is impossible for MAL to proove his claim, right?
"How about some proof. Its ot like anybody signed a Kol Koreh accepting his authority,certainly not the Rav (whom I follow and believe was the Gaon Hador). Or do you just make stuff up ?"
The choyzer in R' Ahron's shiur said that R' Ahron was conveying, through many of his shiurim, that he was the greatest Gayn.
"I was not, however raised on hate, rather to respect the right of all frumme yidden to their shittos, and that we don't get bigger by standing on anybody else."
I don't believe that you were raised on love. Look at gemara end of Succos.
Remind me: where you the one who referred to Rav Svey as 'Elya Svey'.
"You people might (again) bother comparing the writings/talks of.."
'You people'? Is this a white supremist blog?
Lighten up on Maybe,
He's still trying to figure out who R' AC 'Noel' is.
I liked that "Noel" reference, but thought it was a פליטת הקולוס
Tzig you need to check your history. Kremenchug was a large city not some back water shtetel and had 3 large groups of Jews : Litvishe Yidden who emigrated there and that includes the 2nd category Chabad Jews. Native jews that is Ukranian Jews mostly Tchernobler followers. The food problems in the Ukraine was not rampant until much much later.
Rabbi Chaim Zimmerman the nephew of rabbi BBL reports seeing the nasi hador learning in kremenchug in the litvishe yeshiva for several months....
Tzig, what are you talking about?
I said 'eyruvin' intetnionally
Yes, but you said 'Noel" unintentionally. I hope. His name was Noe, or Noeh, not Noel.
He didn't know who ACN was when he was mentioned on an earlier thread re: the CI....The 'Noel' reference wasn't unintentional because he still doesn't have any idea who he was.
Our Maybe friend was spotted then for a bumpkin and he hasn't disappointed the audience since. Give him enough rope....
I hope he atleast had the decency to treat you to a imported brew, not any cheap domestic garbage!
Imported? um, um
Actually All he had was shul instant coffee....
Then again, I should've brought the beer, so I guess it makes me look bad. But it was 1:15 in the A M, and the beer was warm, so what was a brother to do?
your too generous, as always. If you recall, he invited you. He should have sprung for the 'refrshments'.
So he's cheap, in addition to discorteous. Figures.
You're very kind, Kalman.
maybe we can make a shtikkel Melava Malka or a Thursday night cholent get together for the Oylem?
You just brought a tear to my eye!
Yesterday Tiferes Shebetiferes, today an offer to fabreng with da Tzig.
What a week! (and it's only Monday)
I'm glad I could help make you week a little brighter
Great defender of the "faith"
What is your point?What "faith" are you referring to?If your referring to Lubavitch is there something I said in defense of what I deem to be right rankle you? I fail to see anything positive or negative in your pointless statement.Before you write stop and think.That is if you have the ability to do so.
These posts, with a variety of fleas discussing and judging the gadlus of gedolei Yisroel, are not only disgusting, and proof that the participants have no connection to Torah and yiras Shomayim, but even from a "secular" point of view breached all boundaries of decency and boredom. Enough with this garbage.
Let them consider that each one is merely reflecting his own mirror-images, and all the defects they claim to see in their targets are simply their own. Enough is enough. There is no contribution here of insights in either Torah, chochmoh or history - just plain unadulterated garbage.
Schneour to the rescue!!!
As always Schneour backs up with some "real" facts.
As I suspected Kremenchug was a large city, and actually checking up on the previous post on Kremenchug that Tzig linked from 2006 there was a Jewish population of 30 thousand (not the 15k I had guessed)I''m pretty sure now that it was not a "mostly" Lubavitch town, though as Schneour points out there was a significant Lubavitch or probably more accurate Nusach Ari contingent.As another poster Berl pointed out earlier due to significant secular pull a large percentage of the youth was not exactly frum...
So,after prefacing all that.....
The yeshiva refugees were not seen in light of "Misnagdim", because A)The city was multi faceted, multi nusach
B)The Jewish Struggle at the time was not over which rebbe you had, what Nusach you davened!It was very physical, with a world war not very far away, many Jewish soldiers part of the war AND very much spiritual, with probably most of the youth being pulled away from traditional Orthodoxy.The yeshiva refugees, were seen as very much on the side of the yIDDISHKAIT.
Therefore all the prattle about "the modern dress" etc, is total nonsense.
Schneur - let's not underestimate the Chabad presence in the town - though perhaps not the original inhabitatents of the town a presence must have dated back towards the very begging of Chabad. The Mitteler Rebbe was living in Kremenchug at the time of the Alter Rebbe's passing, and many chassidim of the Tzemach Tzedek lived there
"Maybe A Litvak said...
The Gedoley Lita considered him to be the Gaon Hador. After the war, the Rav held like that to. What more do you need?"
One more bald lie from a very desparate liar. Have you no shame ?
Schneurs fact on Kremenchug are weak and not founded on facts
To use a very litvish word: RIBBEINISHLEILEM! Why don't you people grow up? For a change the choshuveh commenters are at least pretending to be focused on "facts." Mazel tov. Now here are some more facts for you poeple.
Approximately .2% of the world's population is Jewish. Less than half of them can be considered ShTu"M by even the most charitable standards. Being generous to a fault we can say that 0.1% of the world's population keeps a significant number of mitzvos. Less than half of those people are frum enough for you people i.e. culturally chareidi, levush includes hat every shabbos at minimum. Thus, still rounding up more than is responsible, about 0.04% of the world is frumme yidden. Is it really worth spewing all this hate at each other?
Where did the post with video go? I loved it!
JEM took it down. it'll be back tomorrow, iy"h.
Annonymous. I fail to see any documentation , notes or prooftexts as to anyhting stated on blogs by anyone.. Shall I give you citations?
Noch dos eychet ?
Kfar Chabad magazine itself published the gaon Reb Chaim's memoirs as to the Nasi hador studying in Kremenchug in the eylemshe yeshiva.
The hunger in Russia was much aklter although i willl concede the Civil War in Russia at this time also affected the food supply , but epidemics were a much more serious issue.
Finally Kremenchug is simply not a shtetel.
Finally some of what is written here transposes K for Jerusalem when the Slobodka bachurim arrived there, but as another commentator pointed out Russia in the early 1920's was not Jerusaelm of the same period, the youth even the Chabad youth was lost except for the few hundred who went to TTL and even there ...
Zimmerman was a Ilu but not a Bar Samcha on episodes, the facts changed according to his whim, it was discussed lately at length on the Seforim Vesofrim site. I think that many Iluim suffer from the same symptom.
When R' Chaim'n was on the lam and was in the same town as the Rashab, he was offered to give a shiur to the Chabad chevrah. The Rebbe said he shouldn't give the shiur, because it might cause the bachurim to become oys Chabdnikers. Was the level of miseras nefesh for chabad so great or this story couldn't have happened?
Kalman, you never fail to adress the substance of the issues.
I doubt you spent considerable time learning * his seforim. V'dal
* I suspect that I could omit the word 'his' and the sentence will still be true. There is no evidence to suggest otherwise
The ma'aseh with R' Chaim is lahadam. It is poshut not shayach b'metzius in time and place. There is a story, however, with R' Chatzkel Abramsky. He went for a probe shiur in Lubavitch. In middle of the shiur he rolled up his sleeves and said Un yetzt vet men zich nemen tzu der rambam. This was seen as a heder hakovod to the rambam IOW a lack of sensitivity to kedushas hatorah of the rishonim, and he was not hired. benogea to R' Chaim, I heard that when he was niftar the Frierdiker Rebbe (before his nesius) came into zal (yeshiva) a farveinter and told stories about him. (minhag chabad is not to be maspid but to tell stories about the niftar). Umesaymim Betov.
It reminds me of the story with the Chafetz Chaim when, in middle of talking to R' Elchonen, plutznik, he said that the Bolsheviks couldn't get Rav Abramsky. When the later met R' Elchonon, some time later, they figured out that the statement was made at the time of his unexpected release from Siber.
The story goes:
RYA came to give a shiur in the Yeshiva in Lod in the early 50's, in connection with some sort of Vaad Hayeshivas some such.
The 'boys' were already a little rambuctious, after Der Dayan made a grand entrance. The Hanhala attempted to keep thing decorous and quited them down.
About half way thru the Shiur, RYA let loose with' " Der Ra"ch (Rebbeinu Channanel) zogt azoi, ober ich zag...". Well the bochurim, having never heard a Rishon treated with such 'kovod', couldn't contain themselves. The Hanhala was beside itself and begged them to keep things dignified.
As told by Harav Yisroel Friedman, who was there.
"מיינט איז דאך אז רבינו חננאל זאגט ניט ווי איך"
I believe were his exact words
Anybody know the story of Rav Ambrasky and the dream with R' Akiva Eiger?
I read your maamer and I had difficulty understanding it. Can you please explain it? Can you say it on a level that thos who are unfamiliar with those concepts, can actually understand it?
Anyways Hirshel, its not as good as when YF says it over.
What happened to the thread you had up briefly, not the video?
I had something up other than the video? the שב שמעתתא?
it's under construction. It will be up soon, iy"h.
"Bobs are funny! said...
Can I ask you to tone down the rhetoric?
MAL never said he "hates" anybody, you actually come across as quite full of "hate"
"What is about 'Bob that attracts infantile kool-aided morons to join it's ranks?"
And you come across as quite full of "love"?
"The story goes:
RYA came to give a shiur in the Yeshiva in Lod in the early 50's, in connection with some sort of Vaad Hayeshivas some such."
Wasn't there a similar story with Maran but with a different twist to it?
Mendel. About Rav Abramsky . He came into the shiur room (Zal) roled up his sleeves took off his kapote and off went his hat and said Lomir brechen a Rambam. I don;t thik the issue was the honor of the Rambam rather that traditionally chassidim learn wearing a beged elyon and possibily with a hat.
I do not know what the custom is today in TTL but in mos other chassidic yeshivos the bachurim wear their begd elyon.
Its mashma that in those days TTL also had the custom to learn with a kapote on and certainly not in short sleeves. that's why the Rashab sent the Slutzker rav packing.
he story does not end there, but I'll leave something for another time.
LUBAVITCH ONLY RAISED MONEY FOR ANASH.
THAT WHY THEY ANASH WERE EXCLUDED FROM VAAD FUNDS.
CHECK IT OUT
Anon When you write it all in Caps like that, it must be true.
"LUBAVITCH ONLY RAISED MONEY FOR ANASH. THAT WHY THEY ANASH WERE EXCLUDED FROM VAAD FUNDS.
CHECK IT OUT"
Two reasons why Lubavitchers were excluded from Va'ad Hatzolah funds 1.) the refusal (al pi the horah of the rayatz) to join any Yeshivah, but to remain a group of bouchrim on their own 2.) the campaign the Rayatz was waging against Va'ad hatzolah in the USA. Check out Frank Riggs book for more detailes!
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