or:
Actually, he died from illness, but I mean in a spiritual sense.
Towards the conclusion of the Farbrengen of Purim 5713, the Rebbe said as follows:
[כהקדמה ובסמיכות לאמירת המאמר, כאשר רצינות ודביקות מיוחדת נראתה על פני קדשו - פתח כ"ק אדמו"ר שליט"א וסיפר:
בתקופת המהפיכה ברוסיא לאחרי מפלתו של הקיסר, הורה כ"ק אדמו"ר (מהורש"ב) נ"ע להחסידים להשתתף בבחירות שנערכו במדינה. ובהתאם לכך הגיע למקום שבו התקיימו הבחירות גם אחד החסידים שהי' מופשט לגמרי מהוויות העולם, ולא ידע כלל מה מתרחש במדינה - שהרי צריך הוא לקיים את ההוראה של הרבי, וכמובן, לאחרי הקדמת טבילה במקוה וחגירת אבנט, כראוי לקיום הוראה של הרבי. לאחר שעשה מה שצריך לעשות בשביל הבחירות, כפי שהורו לו חבריו - ראה אנשים עומדים ומכריזים "הורה", ועמד גם הוא והכריז: "הורע, הורע, הורע"...
(כל המסובים עמדו והכריזו בהתרגשות: "הורע, הורע, הורע". ומיד לאח"ז פתח כ"ק אדמו"ר שליט"א ואמר את המאמר[167])].
Man, I wish there was a tape of that Farbrengen, but alas!
Chassidim zenen klug, and they saw that this was an extraordinary event happening in front of their eyes, they seized the opportunity.
The same or next day Stalin died. The news was only publicized days later, with the reports only being at first that he was "ill", and only later that he died.
In Chabad they say the Rebbe "killed him".
Meanwhile, only minutes away in Williamsburg:
The singer/composer Reb Yom Tov Erlich z"l, had a custom of burning effigies on Purim, something I don't see the point of, but neverthless, that's what he did. He would always ask permission of the Stoliner Rebbe, Reb Yochanon z"l. On Erev Purim 5713 he asked if he
can burn Stalin's effigy, the Rebbe replied:
"מיר האבען אנדערע וועגן ווי דאס צו טאן"
So, according to RYTE his Rebbe "killed" him.
So who gets the credit here?
59 comments:
Efsher Moreinu haRav Schach zt"l hot em geharget ven er hot mechadeish geven a gevaldiger shtickel Tayreh in der tzeit ?
Translation - for the Yiddish impaired - Maybe Moreinu HaRav Schach zt"l killed him when he was michadeish a powerful piece of Torah at that time.
Efsher Moreinu haRav Schach zt"l hot gezogt a 'bombeh' in zein shiur damelst un dos hot em geharget (maybe Moreinu HaRav Schach zt"l said then a 'bombeh' [Yiddish for bomb - meaning like a powerful explosive intellectual revelation] in his shiur and that killed the rosho) ?
to say it once wasn't enough, you had to repeat that?
besides, there were greater geonim than him, even later, but then for sure, who may have come up with greater chidushim...
This could be a good example to contrast how Litvaks view the world vs. (at least some) Chassidim. Chassidim assume that it was their Rebbe that did it, a mofeis of sorts. And who else could do such a thing, other than the Rebbe. Litvaks, on the other hand, realize that things can happen (spiritually) in other ways. Not everything needs to be an open mayfes from the Rebbe.
I've heard of Torah protecting you nad the surroundings, but to go on the offensive, dos nisht.
"besides, there were greater geonim than him, even later, but then for sure, who may have come up with greater chidushim..."
Ein hochi nami. Ken zein. I just mentioned Maran zt"l since I know of the special chavivus that some people here have for him.... ;-)
It could have been a bombeh from someone else.
It's a big efsher whether Moran was mechadesh anything with that kind of power
Surely the combined power of Tzaddikim storming the Heavens brought about his downfall. Why do you think it has to be a solo-job?
And no litvak has that kind of power. Anyone who still opposes the derech hachassidus is a dinosaur fighting a battle that was lost, and who's ideals were already disproven...
Isn't it a waste killing Stalin after he was to blame for 30 million peoples lives.
Tzig, thanks for the deep, deep anecdote.Pity that they didn't kill Hitler when it would have saved the 6 million.
Grow up, please...
I've grown as tall as I care to be.
This seems to be the general question: are we to believe that a Tzaddik has any spiritual "powers" (so to speak) or not?
The brave anonymouses here obviously think, NO!
The general fact is that MMS was not a Tzadik, but there is no question by any simple jew (even he stays anonymous on your blog )that a TZADIK has the attention of Hashem and Hashem listens to him,
Anon:
In english, the words "fact" have a meaning. You should look it up.
Unless you have a tzaddik-omiter in your home...
Hey HT,
Shouldn't "Hurrah" be spelled hey vav alef [space] reish eyin?
"It's a big efsher whether Moran was mechadesh anything with that kind of power"
The point is, do you not agree that an important piece of Tayreh, liamitoh shel Tayreh (nisht stam gehakte narishkeit), has a great kayach ?? I don't necessarily mean Yeshivishe Tayreh - how about a yesod hoemunoh or a yesod in hashkofoh ? Does something like that, in your eyes, have less kayach than a few people chanting hurrah, that you have trouble accepting such a possibility ?
facts are twisted by constant brain washing, according to my dictionary ,Annon
" Anyone who still opposes the derech hachassidus is a dinosaur fighting a battle that was lost, and who's ideals were already disproven... "
Ershtens, I wouldn't start up with a dinosaur. Dos iz a beryah mit zeier shtarker kayches.
Tzveitens, I think reports of the battle being lost and ideals alleagedly been disproven
are incorrect. Kuk zich arum a bissel, see all the problems among Chassidim today - from the many internal battles, to messianic mishugas, to dropouts (see new book 'the unchosen'). Doesn't look that great.
" Anyone who still opposes the derech hachassidus is.....fighting a battle that was lost".
Ever see the newspaper headline saying 'Dewey Defeats Truman'. ? You remind me of that. ;-) Did you perhaps work for the Chicago Tribune at one time? ;-)
Anon
lummir zoggen that EMMS was a great Lamden, the gretaest since the Gr"O, but wouldn't he have to proactively go after Stalin in order to kill him? Do we have a record of this happening? or maybe he was a BaalShemsker Rosh Yeshivah who did everything like the great Onov that he was, bahaltenerheit?
c
" Anyone who still opposes the derech hachassidus is a dinosaur fighting a battle that was lost, and who's ideals were already disproven... '
Ok, if by derech hachasidus you mean, the many normal chasidic groups such as Gur,Belz,Vishnitz etc. part of our gorgeous Jewish mosaic, you are right.They are here to stay, have proven that they are not about to chance central tenets and have been part of authentic Yiddishkait for over 200 years.Lubavitch is different, has always been different and was always under a certain shroud of suspicion.The undeniable genius of the two central figures in the Lubavitch dynasty namely the founder R'Shneour Zalman of Liadi and his grandson R'Menachem Mendel, the Zemach Zedek kept the wariness under wraps.Actually most of Chabad followed the Zemach Zedeks other sons each of which became a leader in his own right who were much closer to rational Judaism.A major break with the traditional Jewish world started in the early 40's and aS history has shown has really grown into a scary cult, deifying their leader, annonting him as the Messiah, during his lifetime and/or deciding that he did not die eleven years ago or Judaism does embrace the idea of a second coming for moshiach a very Christian doctrine.
In Summary:Chasidism has proven to be a legitimate viewpoint.Lubavitch has disintegrated into a scary cult incorporating alien ideas into their dogma.The rabbis were on to something when they saw the strange doings years ago
'lummir zoggen that EMMS was a great Lamden, the gretaest since the Gr"O, but wouldn't he have to proactively go after Stalin in order to kill him? Do we have a record of this happening? or maybe he was a BaalShemsker Rosh Yeshivah who did everything like the great Onov that he was, bahaltenerheit? '
So now you are building a whole 'kashe' on the 'fact' that the Rebbe 'killed' Stalin!??
You are a fool.If the Rebbe 'killed' Stalin, he should have woken up a bit earlier and 'killed' Hitler too! But......enjoy your fantasies, and remember to pick up your dollar from the Rebbe this sunday. (don't forget to take your thorazine either)
This is really tiring
If I was a Gerrer Chossid and had snags saying that I'm an OK guy, I'd be worried.
The truth is that the GRO was just as scary and suspicious as Chassidim. He basically rewrote Judaism with his new minhogim, but he's allowed to.
HT said:I've grown as tall as I care to be.
Then you are deep trouble my friend, for you believe you do not have to grow anymore,and this is the beginning of yor donwfall.
Baal Givah
I was being literal....
please think before employing your keyboard...
People
nobody asked to believe anything, so if you don't go away, please, before I hurt someone.
On another note, can anybody really confirm that the Red Sea was REALLY split? I mean, isn't that a little far-fetched?
Avremel ,
So there is nothing in Chabad that worries you, eh??
The thousands of young men running amock in 770 Screaming 'long live the Rebbe', not scary? The same morons giving out 'kos shel brocha' from the rebbe, not scary?Reports splashed across the media in New York about a major fight regarding the foundation stone , which on a plaque above it referred to the rebbe as deceased, which your morons cannot accept, not scary??Twenty four hour guards over that dumb stone at a cost of hundreds of thousands, not scary?Scariest of all the crazies succeed in breaking that dumb stone, despite 24 hour security.
Potz, get your head out of the ground and smell the coffee!!!!Chabad haS become the laughing stock of the Jewish world. One of the few things that the orthodox world agrees about:Lubavitch haS lost it
Am I the only one who noticed that every thread here ends up basically the same way...
need vacation,
how about a shot of tequilla as well?
"The thousands of young men running amock in 770"
You have got to be kidding...
There's no need to exaggerate here, please.
You say that we need to take care of the problem and then when they do it's crazy because they're spending money to protect it?
You're right on one thing, I'd go about it differently, but I'm not in charge, and maybe that a good thing.
Then again, if they decide to throw out all the troublemakers, they'd such hang out outside, holding vigils etc. and then the chilul hashem would only be greater
Chabad has plenty of time to laugh at others too, never mind. We're not the only ones being laughed at, א חצי נחמה
"Am I the only one who noticed that every thread here ends up basically the same way..."
That's because all these side ta'anos (moshiach, etc) just skirt the main ta'anoh on Lubavitch; namely, that we have our own poskim, r"l.
Can't we all just get along?!
on vacation
what do you mean?
Hirshel,
You must be on the right track here. You're finally drawing out all the Kotleristim, Sveinikers and Begeristim ver villin krichin in himil tzu kushen der shor shenogoch in punim arein
in the chevra kadesha we have a joke that goes like this : when Hashem gave the mahlach hamaves his job he was very sad.he told Hashem that everyone will hate him and he'll have no friends as the grim reaper to which G-d responded "don't worry noone will ever blaim you!"
Amshi
you're speaking in riddles again, what's the connection here?
HT
or was it...
R' M.M. Gefner from Jerusalem.
In his biography - I forgot what it's called - the credit is attributed to him, and his Chevra Tehillim.
so now we have a 3rd guy claiming it was him. Was the Beis Yisroel involved in that, I know he was on other ocassions?
HT,
I had a long conversation with a "choshuver yungerman" in Lakewood, and I said: Let's say I'm maskim about issue A (that you are correct), do you still have a problem with Lubavitch. Let's say I'm maskim on issue B, etc.
What I finally drew out of him is that the taynos against mivtzoim, kiruv, etc, are because other gedolim put their emphasis elsewhere, so how dare the Rebbe establish different priorities!!
Avremel, you know and I know that most of the youth is either meshichist or pro meshichist, that the meshichisten are the only ones that really care about the Rebbes inyonim for example they were the only ones to demonstrate in a vehement way against the disengagement and Sharon (it's not a plus in my book since I think the Gaza evacuation was needed, but at least they are consistent.Also please don't tell me Druckman the non meshichist did something:that's one guy)Basically they are the 'real Lubavitch' and they are crazy......very crazy and they will take over, just as they 'own' 770.
If I was a Chabasker I would be saying to myself 'seems the guy from Bnei Brak was onto something'
The venerable Mashpia Reb Shlomo HaCohen Zarchi Shlit"a once said that pi---n in Mikveh iz di gringste zach, i.e. To go and scream Yechi and to protest disengagement is easy. So if the Meshichisten want that claim let them have it.
What about Hashem ???
Kurenitzer
what do you mean?
Vacation,
One "choshover Yingerman" does not Lakewood make.
But, to tell the truth, I've had many conversations with many "choshover yungerleit" there, and also not yungerleit, and they, most of them, are quite warm to chabad, their rosh yeshivas (past and present) notwithstanding. And we share a common disgust with the present "rot" that emanates from certain sects within anash.
As for anon,
your a punk. you opened your eyes on this world yesterday and you've got it all figured out. The fact is you know nothing. Not Lubavitch, and not Lakewood. You know only what you've heard from the guy sitting next to you or worse. I can trot out hundreds of bochurim that are learning b'hasmodah, nigleh and chassidus, and spending their friday afternoons putting t'fillin on other yidden, not kaherin' zich ois playing basketball. And they don't need and are not looking for your recognition. Stick around a little and learn something ON YOUR OWN.
But we've heard this before, it starts with not sleeping in the succah, then it goes to "bittul torah and huben tzu teen mit der gaas", and now there is a new straw man to attack. Its still the zelber micharchei riv and the zelber machlokos. And if its not Likutei Dibburim, now the mittler rebbe and the Rebbe Maharash are treif.
And as for that noch anon, you are also a viper (or a fool or misinformed) because the alter rebbe hut gelitin der zelbe freintlicha makos from the misnagdim as the Rebbe.
Bottom line - der zelbe R' chaim vi amul (who refused to sign on the CH' and saw the wheat thru any chaff that "may" have been) zenen heint, and der zelbe avigdor v'chaveirav fun amul zenen oich heint.
Rav Avigdor meint ihr.
ihr? why, thank you.
Maran HaRav Avigdor, ztz"l. Rav of Pinsk.
I thought the "Jewish doctors" poisoned him, silly me.
Gro'nik iz gerecht !
BPUNBOUND,
I've been watching your posts and realized that I was missing Something in the picture.Supposedly a Chaim Berlin grad with such hate towards the yeshiva world?
Well you answered that question today:You are a CHABADSKER! you are 'allowed' to be an ingrate.Reminds of someone who claimed their father 'learned' 8 years in Telz, but has obviously not taught his son about 'bor sheshosiso mimeno mayim al tizroik boi even' or basic hakoras hatov.Well maybe he was not learning to much there so you can blame him for not 'knowing' about basic mentchlichkeit.
On the other hand maybe you never learned in Chaim Berlin and you are just masquerading as such.Whichever the case is, you became Chabad or were always Chabad, those basic mentlichkeit rules of not being an ingrate don't apply, So feel free to spout your drivel
If I may
BP, if he is a YRCB grad, needs to show hakoras Hatov only to them, and not to the entire yeshiva world, same goes for me.
HH,
Firstly, let me thank you for choosing a handle, as it makes it much simpler to respond, alleviates confusion, and is "menchlich".
As far as following my posts, you couldn't have given them even a scant reading if you conclude I harbor a "hate towards the yeshiva world". Even the post you responded to indicates quite the contarary. Furthermore, a clear reading of my earlier posts regarding CB would yeild that
1) I recognized and appreciated that there were some really teirer yidden there (hardly hate)
2) I had some insight that would have been hard to come by if I had not been there (unless I have some obsession with the place).
As far as the stunning conclusion "You are a CHABADSKER!" (oh my!), further proof that you haven't been following my posts for any appreciable amount of time. That realization is hardly an insight worthy the emphasis that you add.
As far as gratitude, I thought I was quite complimentary to RYH. And I will say for the record, I am very much makir tov, and futhermore had and have good friends and aquantices in CB, and for that matter in LW, Mir, Pnvh, Mir Y., Novardik etc.
No, my friend, what I hate is blind hatred, and that is what I found, in a systemic way, in the so called "yeshiva world". And I can say that I didn't experience this at all in a personal way when I was "there", as it wasn't then pertinent or directed to me. So the impresions of what I saw and heard I can report in an objective manner (granted, jaded somewhat by present day bias, but I'll stand by my perceptions nonetheless)
Now what I gathered from YOUR post was that you hadn't so fully experienced or thoughtfully considered the "world" you yourself feel so compelled to defend as to be taken seriously. Because to this reporters senses, I have found "there" a rather patronizing tone towards Chassidus in general and a downright sinah towards Chabad in particular.
As I said, I am aquantinted and friendly with, and have shared meaningful conversation, with many of the "yeshiva world" and I found absolutely no animus towards chassidim or chassidus, quite the opposite. (and as I posted previously, we have also shared an abhorance for the "rot" that has always existed in one form or another, as I am sure you feel for the "rot" that exists in your "world". We all have "boils" that need lancing, wouldn't you agree?). I have found companianship and respect from those of the rank and file (and a bissel hecher) that use their eyes to see and their heads to think. And their feelings toward me are recipricated in kind.
But I have also found a systemic, top-down sinah that seeks to inculcate and propgagandize in a way that is invideos, malicios, deceptive and downright dishonest.
And, as I said, that sinah is not only for Chabad, but is mainly directed torwards them because they are an easy target (partly our own doing).
And, yes, I lay this at the doorstep of (less than) a handful of individuals, who for some (you pick the) reason, felt a need to stoke the fires of a machlokos that was long ago extinguished. That I HATE.
These are some of my impressions. If you have impressions to share, by all means. But lets drop the hackneyed, tired cliches and the borrowed, practiced diatribe. Its a waste of good time and certainly brings no glory upon the very cause you wish to champion.
Re "Who killed Stalin? " and the different people claiming credit - I am reminded of the expression 'success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan'.
Hirshel Tzig said...
I've heard of Torah protecting you and the surroundings, but to go on the offensive, dos nisht.
I was thinking about this comment of Hershel. To put his comment into different words, one could say that we know that Tayreh is magnei umatzlei - ober meheicha teisi going on the offense ? Although at first glance he may seem to have a point, limaaseh there are places where we see the importance of kayach haTayreh even for offense. Limoshol by Yehoshua and Ai - the malach came to him in a threatening way admonishing him re bittul Tayreh. Miyad ...'Vayolen Yehayshua balayla hahu bisaych ho'emek - milamed shelon biumkoh shel halocheh'. Also, the heiliger Netziv (yo, mit zeiner peyes ;-) writes about the kayach of Tayreh binaygeia milchomo.
But even if the above were not so, who says the matzav with Stalin der rosho was only 'offense' and not defense for the future ? By the way I have heard someone claim az er hot gehat a Yiddishe mamma (oder efsher bobbeh), ober ich veis nit ayb es iz stam a bobbe maaseh or what.
Nu, zol zein.
he had a Yiddishe Shvogger, (and wife?)
I mean to say that Hakol biydei Shomayim, The prayers of thousands of Jews in Russia were answered by Hasem and Stalin "hot gepeygert" at just the right time.
During WW2 S talin gave refuge to 500,000 Polsih Jews fleeing from Hitler. In the introduction to one of his books in English none other than the militant anti-Communsit Menachem begin offers thanks to the Communist state for this deed. At the same time our great nation would not admit a Jew to its shores. Most of these survived and later left to the west in 1945. That is how the Anash left then disguised as Polish jews who were eligable for re-patriation.
The Zviller rebbe reb Shloimke Goldman of Jslm who himself suffered under the Red rule said that Stalin had many zechusim for his destruction of thousnads of Tifles (churches ) in Russia . Go figure the ways of Hashem. By 1952 Stalin's usefullness had ended. He had aided the Polish Jews and recognized and armed the new state of Israel. Then he was ready to peyger like a dog.
"isn't it a waste killing Stalin after he was to blame for 30 million peoples lives.
Tzig, thanks for the deep, deep anecdote.Pity that they didn't kill Hitler when it would have saved the 6 million.
Grow up, please..."
Actualy, he was killed just before the cilmination of the infamous doctor's plot
see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot
"The point is, do you not agree that an important piece of Tayreh, liamitoh shel Tayreh (nisht stam gehakte narishkeit), has a great kayach ?? I don't necessarily mean Yeshivishe Tayreh - how about a yesod hoemunoh or a yesod in hashkofoh ? Does something like that, in your eyes, have less kayach than a few people chanting hurrah, that you have trouble accepting such a possibility ?"
A vort of ranting (ober un alimus) is not by any means li'amitoh she torah", lihavdil elef havdalos the ma'amar of Putim '13.
p.s. it's a very deep ma'amer.
"Tzveitens, I think reports of the battle being lost and ideals alleagedly been disproven
are incorrect. Kuk zich arum a bissel, see all the problems among Chassidim today - from the many internal battles, to messianic mishugas, to dropouts (see new book 'the unchosen'). Doesn't look that great."
just pointing out, alll that can be said about the litvaks too, or especialy.
well maybe not messianism, it's not that extreme, but with kanievski who knows?
"Actually most of Chabad followed the Zemach Zedeks other sons each of which became a leader in his own right who were much closer to rational Judaism"
fact checker?
if not for tzig all other branches of chabad would be bli zecher klal uklal
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