Wednesday, November 2, 2005
Time to reconsider
In light of recent events, where every Russian, Minnesotian, and son and daughter of Baalei Tshuvah who was ever brushed against at a farbrengen or had his hat smashed at the Mikveh in Crown Heights is "exposing" Lubavitch, we need to reconsider our priorities.
We can trace all of these rabblerousers, troublemakers, backstabbers, and ingrates to one of several categories:
1) The Russian bachelor who feels he's been lied to and Lubavitch isn't perfect, worse, they're a bunch of Hungarians who don't understand Greco-Roman Architecture, and only TNLR has the right idea.
2) The fool from Minnesota who feels that the Rebbe should've used his contacts to save Raoul Wallenberg, the Falashes, and the spotted owl, if not he should've died (r"l) with the rest in the gas chambers.
3) The young girl who's lost her way and now uses her feel-good education to make teenagers feel good and comfortable in an irreligious environment.
4) The Sefardim, Frenchies, American Baalei Tshuvah, without whom such troublemakers such as a Rabbi at a certain institute for Baalos Tshuvah would have nobody to preach to.
THEREFORE, I PROPOSE A 10 YEAR MORATORIUM ON CHABAD OUTREACH ACTIVITIES. Meaning, no Boy or Girl, man or woman should be sent to a Yeshivah or Girls institute for the next 10 years. Chabad activities should be limited to doing mivtzoyim and/or teaching Nigleh only, preferably Artscroll/Metsudah/Feldheim. Anybody needing to go to Yeshivah should be sent to Aish or Or Someach. A person needing "Rebbe" guidance should be sent to one of the "Gedolim" such as Goldwasser and so on. The Rebbe nor Chassidus should not be mentioned.
This will make it a better life and Lubavitch for all of us.
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Better yet, lets make a "raynikung" Lets only allow Gezhe people to carry cards iding them as Lubavitcher.
Will anyone be left ?
how about this:
test everyone on Chabad history, Yiddish language, knowledge of basic concepts of Chassidus. Disallow those who fail.
Kurenitzer, will you?
The only thing that can be koveah seder hayom in Lubavitch is dem rebben's rotzein. What Tzig proposes is not lefi ruach malkeinu. Not even worth debating. Otherwise I would be all for kurenitzer's proposal. :)
How do you know it would not be לפי רוחו?
ווי ליינג נאך?
I would not be part of the New/Old Chabad, but at least those loonies won't be either. We'll then watch how Chabad WILL RISE AGAIN!
vi lang noch? ad ki yovei shilo!
Tzig - bechlal trachtst do tzu fill vegin dem "ma yoimru hagoim". Tracht beser vegen dem "veniflinu ani veamecho" un kediamri inshi - kak zei ale on't!
Ober bifrat vegen TA - bin ich mit dir nit maskim klal uchelal. Nit du kenst em un nit do farshteist em. Loz op't.
So what will happen with the maysdays for baalei teshuvah, buildings and the like ? Maybe convert them to Goldwasser houses for ten years. Hey, maybe R. Goldwasser can be the next Rebbe - after all es teilt ois lekach erev yaym kipur !
All the mishugoim should be sent to Breslover moisdois to join the already impressive collection there. Give them one way tickets to Uman ? Is there a Chabad house in Uman yet, by the way ?
Those who don't want to become Breslovers can become Goldvasser Chassidim.
Chabad owns Uman, no? didn't Asman buy it?
So now it's open season on Breslov, aye? I won't have it. Avremel and anon. you're both out of line here.
Who needs all these pesty BT's? They have the chutzpah to demand Lubavitch live up to its own espoused standards! No fun having these upstarts around reminding us of our Rebbe's ratzon!
Close our doors and become like Satmar. Exactly what the Rebbe wants.
hirshel tzvig, you are expressing sinas chinam. Time to do a cheshbon hanefesh.
That Rabbi of that mosod of female balay teshuvha made them into malcontents. He filled their heads with illusions, delusions, unrealisitc expectations of life in Lub land and years later some of them have woken up and can smell the coffee. When the chips were down neither he nor anyone else was there to help them with their new lives.
What can I say people?
1) I do not advocate not accepting new "recruits", so you cannot accuse me of Sinas Chinom, all I'm saying is that you should not teach Chabad, Chassidus, Rebbe, Moshiach etc. All it has done recently is make a lot of unlearned boors into self-made teachers and Mashpiyim. They in turn produce bigger boors and fools, only because the "Rav" doesn't teach everything he knows to the "talmid".
2) Send the crazy ones to Aish, OSomeach, Breslov etc. Let them have a good time with these souls. By "crazy ones" I mean people with obvious emotional and mental issues. This way they'll make trouble elsewhere.
mendel and Ahavas yisroel..right on!
Insomniac, get a life.
ht, You are very much out of line, and should consider getting a life too.
You posit that lubavitch worldwide idles operations because you have identified a handful of malcontent bloggers who each have a handful of followers? please. Your conclusion is that this will provide you with the Lubavitch that you want? A litmus test for lubavhood is not what siddur you daven from or what Lubavitch can do for me, but rather what can i do for Luvavitch, the Rebbe, Yiddishkeit, and last but not least Hashem.
"send the crazy ones..." when refering to Jews is just not jewish, so ht, how and why did you become such a not jewish, insular, wanna be lubavitcher? One thing for sure..you are another brand of disgruntled Lubavitch associated blogger not much different than those others that you listed in your post....I want to abandon this website but i will not leave you alone foor your sake.. or maybe i should send you to aish, or sameach per your recommendation?
you're the last person on earth whom I mean to alienate or who I want to misunderstand me.
Am I overreacting to another blog? maybe. But what I see from all the posters as well as from others is that Lubavitch has done a very shoddy job in educating its new adherents. We need to focus our attention on improving ourselves, all of us, as an existing body before we seek more.
You may say that this was not the Rebbe's derech, he always wanted more done, but one's thing's for certain, THIS HE DID NOT WANT.The Rebbe wanted quantity, no doubt, but not at the expense of quality.
What exactly do you think will remain of Lub. after your 10 yr. grace period, not mentioning Chassidus, Rebbe?
They'll probably come to terms that its all unneccessary...
I said Shluchim should not mention the Rebbe to new "mekurovim", not that Lubavitch should stop.
Tzig......funny you criticize the ba'alei teshuva in Lubab la la land but are no better.Though you went through the Lubab machine since a kid you have shown yourself to be a proster am ho'oretz and laidiggayer.Did you ever write any torah words here??(check out hirhurim.com to get an idea .I'm surprised you have had nothing to say about him yet)
Btw, what do you want from Goldwaser?The guy gets flack for being very respectful towards the Rebbe and chasidim in general(one of the few non Lubabs to quote and say over from the Rebbe)and in your book he is the antichrist.You are funny
1) I have not gone through the "system" since I was a kid. I spent relatively little time in Lubavitcher Yeshivos
2) This is not a platform for Divrei Torah, although some gedanken wouldn't hurt. Why not you?
Goldwater gets flack for robbing an old man, nada mas.
You know he robbed an old man, or you decided to believe one side,eh ?
Next you know, Someone will accuse you of robbing the alteh babbe down the street, WOULD YOU LIKE THAT?
'VELAMOH NIKREIS SHMO CHASIDO, Shoisoh chesed im chavroseho'
AND that's why it's treif!
(if you don't get the vort asked the guy who supposedly attended Telz for eight years)
anon, why the anger? You have it your way anyway, Vos badert dir that a Lubavitcher thinks otherwise? Di velt lacht duch seivi fun unz? Nisht azoi?
BTW if you know your zoological facts you will find that the chassida gets a bad rap - It's not true.
Now what? Were Chazal a bunch of Lubavitchers who couldnt even get basic information about the chasida right?
I'm not sure I understood your scientific zoological note,
but there's no way of being sure which bird is called Chasida.
Maybe R. Nosson Slifkin can help re the Chassida.
HT, you are correct, it all comes down to getting a quality education. I was given my 'frum stamp of approval' and it was at least 15 years later before I realized how many gaps were left in my Torah education. You see, it is like teaching music. There are two ways of doing it. The first way is to actually teach the music, to teach the student to understand its inner dynamics, so the student can then play any piece he sees on his own. The second way is to train the student to play music like a trained monkey, and teach him a series of songs, but he cannot make head or tails out of a new piece he may confront, because he was not taught to understand how music works.
The second way is how Machon Chana taught me: to jump through the hoops like a trained monkey. You keep kosher. Yippe! Next step. You read davening in Hebrew. Yippee! Next step. You can spout off some Chassidic phrases and studied three chapters in Tanya. Yippie! Next step. You married a BT guy who wears a kapato and he can say kiddush in Hebrew! Yippe! next step--you are a succesful BT. Now set up a Chassidic home and have a bunch of kids. You get a pat on the head and a Bye Bye!
Sadly, it has for lots of shluchim and for MC become all about quantity and keeping up the appearance of success and not at all about quality of education.
It's sad, but part of the blame lies at the feet of the BT who decides he/she's good to go.
HT, maybe, but most BT's do not even know enough to decide that, at least I didn't. And if they gave up dating, and have been alone for a while, they do not want to delay marriage or getting back on the career track for too long lest they do an aveira or simply get too old and miss the boat. It is easy to judge when you haven't been there. Imagine having a career you studied for and you put it on hold, then you realize it may be hard to ever pick it up where you left off. Imagine you had in your secualr life lived with the opposite sex, and you are now celibate. You want to have companionship, you want to earn your way. How long can you wait? Should you sit and learn till your 35-40 years old? For women the bio clock tics away louder and loouder each year.
And the these mashpiam and 'learned' people are pushing you through the system telling you it's time to move one, get married, get a life, and you listen to them , because they dangle the carrot of a spouse in front of your eyes. The mashpiam want more than anything to marry you off and show you off as another 'success' story. The sheitel to them is a sign that their job is done.
whatever you think of Rabbi M's politics does not diminish the fact that he's brought hundreds of women (and men) back to living a full Chasidishe life. For every disgruntled Talmida you'll find 10 or 50 happy ones.
Politcs has nothing to do with it. It is about his methods, ethics, breaching confidentiality, mind manipulation, and the neglect of student's psychological health issues. All this should be questioned, not just regarding him, but all shluchim. A shaliach may be the only 'helping profession' whereby they are not held to any professional ethical standards. If a psychiatrist, lawyer, or teacher, breaches confidentiality, even once, he could very well lose his profession forever. But a shaliach can do so and he/she not only will not lose his/her position, but may even be lauded as a great success. Ironic, isn't it? That could make being a shaliach the most secure helping profession in the entire world. If we are worried about Lubavitch getting exposed for its misdeeds, then perhaps it behooves us to go to the root of some of these misdeeds. I assert that the lack of accountability of shluchim and mashpiam is responsible for producing many of our so-called disgruntled BT's. Maybe they have something to be disgruntled about? Wouldn't it at least be the right thing to give them benefit of the doubt and look into this? Or are we so ideologically correct that we are completely above admitting to having any weaknesses in our methodology? If so then there will be only more exposes and we will all suffer for it.
wanderer, Rabbi M has not brought back nearly as many as Rabbi Manis Friedman, the king of BT women's movement!
this conversation wasn't meant to be focusing on the aforementioned Rabbi. I can understand that you're hurt and upset, but he's not all of the problem. I used him only as an example, and only with regards to his teachings, not to him as a person. I do not know enough about his approach with Baalei Tshuvah to comment on them.
His approach to the Moshiach issue I do know enough to say that it's childish at best.
The point is that the same is done by many others, many with pure intentions.
I merely raise the issues of ethics for shluchim. There is no overseeing mechanism, no censure, nor any penalties for shluchim who breach the basic ethical codes that are common to all other helping professions. Isn't this a problem? Especially since these types of professions are prone to abuses of power and mental manipulation.
That's not completely true. Shluchim are removed from posts, though not very often. Something like that would be difficult to implement, unless they're obvious breaches of Torah ethics, such as inappropriate relationships. Otherwise who would you complain to?
HT, it would have to be thought about but it could be worked out.
Breach of confidentiality is certianly an issue that would be fairly easy to deal with, either by a shtar, through a Beis Din, civil legal means, or all of the above. But if we continue to ignore these issue of ethics then we will continue to suffer from the exposes. (accent on the second 'e'). Too many shluchim, while mostly well meaning, are imcompetent or unethical and that cannot be good for Lubavitch in the long run.
just to add, it all comes down to this- too many shluchim feel they have a right and have carte blanch to do whatever they please, as long as they can rationalize it as being good for their mosod, anything goes. Breach of confidentiality, speaking loshon hora about their students and community members, is much more common than many realize. In the Chabad world, a shaliach with a 'succesful' record is given credence, while the student or community member he/she may be slandering is not. That is an abuse of power that would not be tolerated in any other profession, yet it happens everday in Chabad..
This is the Ultra Orthodox world. That's how things are done. Deal with it.
Tzemach just had a major temper tantrum on his blog, calling 150 posts stupid and his posters losers. Why? What a baby!
It seems that you've had a problem with him regarding breach of Rabbi-? privilege, why then did you not take action?
I tried. But at the end of the day no one, not even Rabbonim, will ever take a fair stance and look at all this objectively. The shaliach is always given more benefit of the doubt, and believed over the BT. And this happened to friends of mine as well, especially regarding shidduchim.
not yippy, but rather yip yip horay!!!! G-d created you with a design and a purpose and you were not living it before you found lubavitch.....Go back to your mother's OBGYN and get the slap that he didn't give you when you were born, wake up and then try to celebrate every minute of your current life breaking your back being thankful to those who helped you get this far....don't mock what you've accomplished nor your bt husband who is now gloriously able to say kiddush and raise a jewish family...could one possibly say more?
Enjoyed the post because it aludes to a dynamic in lubav that needs work..(i'm all for contructive critisysm) even though post logic is problematic.... Shutting down, or editing our message about the Rebbe is not the answer in general...although the meshichist message and parafanalia that israeli bochrim promote during mivtzoim tefilin or whatever should certainly be eliminated...You did allude to a real problem...we are churning out outreach shluchim and a typical bocheril is excited about this goal in life as a child, conquerig a city, building a CHabad house, etc....Our culture has not promoted raising educators to bring us up....we are too busy expending effort just to get other yidden in the door....the Jewish world is hemoraging over the last 100 years and the Rebbe went for broke because there was no other moral choice....maybe concurrently we could do a little something education wise for our children, ourselves,etc. on an institutional basis....inreach....but this is revolutionary in lubavitch and takes trmendous resources that lubavitch is not geared to contribute......maybe we could convert a litvish branch who has this kind of infrastructure into lubavitchers.......
everyone, i may have been unclear above..i'm not impugning shluchim who have visions of conquering cities..only observing that our culture is very one dimensional and like HT says, deserves some focus...
I don't care for the "Rebbe going for broke" comment. That was definitely was not the idea. We just messed up.
ht, semanitc..expresion only..doesnt mean anything negative.. 'we messed up' too simple...rather we collectively succeeded given the circumstances, but there are areas 'we' didn't focus on....YET!
Berl, you said:
"Tzig - bechlal trachtst do tzu fill vegin dem "ma yoimru hagoim". Tracht beser vegen dem "veniflinu ani veamecho" un kediamri inshi - kak zei ale on't!"
1) Der Veniflinuu farshtei Ich gantz gut, Ober es vert veiniger, bifrat az men lernt nisht kan Chassidus. Di klamke un di kashe fun T"T geit nur azei veit.
2) Gevisse Mentshen Un in gevisse feller ken men un m'darf onkakaen, Ober mit erenste mentshen vos villen niskarev veren un freggen kashes darf zein an andere tzugang.
Far vos darf mehn redden beis hakiseh shprach DO?
Onkaken iz lav davkeh in Bais HaKiseh
what I said was not semantics, You somehow blamed the Rebbe for "betting" wrongly and going for broke. I said we messed up and missed the point. It's quite different.
HT, OY OY OY, 'semantics' basically means understanding of words. everything anyone says and the understanding of or in your case the non understanding is semantics. I didn't somehow BLAME the Rebbe, nor did I say the Rebbe BET and went BROKE. You inferred these conclusions from my using a parave american expression. Furthermore if 'we messed up' as you put it, that could only come from not listening to the rebbe. I don't identify with your framing of events and don't believe there was a messing up per se, (because following the Rebbe is key), rather there is more work to be done....Lets look at the local facts before we get cooked up about the world and the Rebbe...who messed up right here?...who has so much ahavas yisroel that he calls yidden 'crazies' and says loshen hora in the name of Lubavitch on a medium that has the potential to reach millions of people the world over and is recorded for the public to access forever?....yasher koach!
Ahavas Yisroel does NOT mean allowing people of little intelligence (is that a better term) run rampant and ruin decades of the Rebbe's work
ht, since no one is jumping in the tent its just you and me to slug it out...(where is baal gyva?) The Rebbe didn't acknowledge seemingly non offensive language in refererence to yidden: like when a shliach said 'yidden with no background' or when other yidden said 'outreach'; what would the Rebbe say about you calling yidden 'crazies'...? answer a question please? The Rebbe's work continues by those who don't pontificate, but rather those who are involved with yidden on a seeminly mundane basis helping them do one more mitzvah day after day.....
well, then maybe I'm guilty overreacting. Can you find it in your heart to understand my frustration?
gee wiz, sure....my heart understands....no joke....we are all frustrated in golus.....Non principled uncontrolled expression of frustration (loshan hora/non ahavas yisroel, car burning..oops i mean yidden bashing) is osur, non flattering for the author, counterproductive, ...I'm suggesting that you cover the same topics but focus on issues and ideas in a principled manner (jewish)....Maybe run a few miles before you post...
if I could run a few miles I'd be 50 pounds lighter......
Can I say something even though I am not a Lubavitcher chasid.
In all seriousness the solution to the issue raised here is not closing the books on Kiruv etc. Rather Lubavitch today needs to do 2 things.
1. The Kloizenberger rebbe said that in the old country there were also baale Teshuva , but there they were involved in their own teshuva process and many of their aveiros were not just stamm aveiros, men darf arbeten af teshuva, BUT he added here in the US the Baale Teshuva zitsen in Mizrach und zogen daayos to others. Teshuva in the US and Israel is like switching from being a NL fan to an AL fan.
Thats a big mistake. Surely their children should be integrated, but someone who grew up in a secular home can not give deeos to a frum Chassidisher family in any inyonim.Yes there is kabbolas Mitzvoth , but the greater part of their upbringing and weltsanscahung remains in tact.
Next young people in classical Jewish society were not the hogei Daayoth , There was a concept of Ziknei Anash. Where are they now? They should set the tone not some teen agers from Israel or anywhere. These kids should be studying.
Kindly Do these things and Lubavitch will be on the road again.
A note the Belzer rebbe does BT work in Israel, and has had some success , but he does not wish to water down his chassiduth. These new comers are not encouraged to become chassidim , just Orthodox Jews.And to me that makes sense.
gut gezogt. Mottle Kozliner used to tell the Baalei Tshuvah in Israel, אכלת חזיר 20 שנה עכשיו תשתוק ל20 שנה.
Belz is different in that they don't have the whole concept of Hafotzas HaChassidus, which lubavitch does, so they don't need to make everybody a Belzer. Maybe Lubavitch should work that way for a while.
And whay IS it that the chassidisher velt ignores the BESH"T's letter "Lichseyafutzu mayonasecha chutza" and Lubavitch seems to have made it its raison d'etre?
K, good points, but...
K and HT; lubavitch in general focuses on getting yidden to do one more miztva with the practical goal of getting that yid to view the world through yiddish glasses. We're not even talking making them frum, so you're wrong in saying 'making them lubavitch'. Really...Poll any ten shluchim who are at least 30 years old and you'll see....
and furthermore, one could tyna that its a problem that lubavitch doesn't make more people into lubavitchers in an organized fashion....Poll all the english baal tchuva yeshivas/seminaries in eretz yisroel and you will find the MAJORITY of talmidim came into yiddishkeit thru lubavitch and were served up to aish and or sameach, etc...the infratstructure is shvach for a baal tshuva to become a lubavitcher....shidduchim also...one would thing with lubavitch so strong the world over, bringing people into the fold day and night, that there would be baale tshuva yeshivas and seminaries overflowing with shidduchim prospects.....the realty though is there is a huge hole...bt yeshivas are very limited...seminaries more limited, and thus prospects for shidduchim lessened....how there are as newly forged lubavitchers at all is absolutely remarkable...
that may or may not be the case, but how many students do all of these yeshivas and seminaries have COMBINED?.
There needs to be more than one approach to how to teach Baalei Tshuvah.
Hirshel what a rant!
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