What we have here for your listening pleasure is two parts of audio of a debate (for lack of a better term) between Rabbi Immanuel Schochet of Toronto and a Rabbi at
Or Someach in
Yerushalayim. His name is not mentioned as far as I remember. The student was seemingly perplexed, and at a crossroads in life, not knowing whether to go learn in
Maayanot Yeshiva or go to back home to the States (or was it Canada?) He was told by his Rabbeyim at OS not to join Chabad because they're basically not accepted by the Torah World. (He includes Breslov in that category.) The student lists all the
Taynes that his Rabbi had against
Lubavitch and the
Rebbe. Well worth a listen.
Part I needs to be listened to with the volume turned up, Part II is much better. It seems like the tape ends just as they were getting into it, which seemingly is always the case, I guess the guy didn't bring enough tape with him. Rabbi Shochet seems to be the right guy for this task, owing to his
Litvishe Heritage - He
Shtams from Telz - and his relationship with many, many of the
Litvishe Rabbonim and
Roshei Yeshivah of today and yesteryear, including many of the supposed anti-Chabad.
Let me know what you think. Thanks to Akiva of
Mystical Paths for helping me out with the uploading.
37 comments:
so how did you upload this big of a file. can you share the secret.
After the holy shabbos I'll listen to the file
The OS Rabbi is refered to in the "debate" as Rabbi Kaplan. Sadly, the recording runs out just when it starts getting soemwhere.
The OS Rabbi is refered to in the "debate" as Rabbi Kaplan. Sadly, the recording runs out just when it starts getting soemwhere.
Thank you Tzig!! R. Shochat sounded excellent.
Poopik
no big deal. Go to esnips.com and create a free account. Then upload your content to their site. They give you 1GB. They then give you a URL (web address) for the file hich you can post as a link or better yet, you can upload it with a media player like I did.
Good stuff. i have this recording myself for about 4 years.
I heard that Aish Hatorah started to give TANYA shiurim on Tuesday nights! the reason they say they started to do this was in order to keep away bochurem from Mayanot who also gave a shiur at teh same time. but at any rate it is still an amazing thing.
For better hearing, download files and set equalizer at the 1khz range only all the way up, all the rest down.
I am slightly confused: Is the first part the student with Immanuel. and the second the Aish snag with Immanuel?
Essentially the snag says: I don't like Lubavitch, because someone bothers me on the bus about them!
I can't get part two to work . . . I like how the OS guy goes ballistic towards the end.
The intellectual dishonesty is painful to hear. Immanuel is trying to make a point about the actual administrators of the Chabad international organizations. Then this fellow throws this massive red herring of "who says if it's the Rebbe's writing..." and wastes ten minutes of time. Immanuel has to debase himself to discuss the Rambam's view of eidus etc. That was totally unnecessary! Basically, I see it as a ploy by the misnged to eat into Immanuel's speaking time. A dirty trick.
Now I happen to think that Immanuel's defence that it's a minority is less than true. Yechi is discouraged, but even most of the most "anti" shluchim are of the belief (read: hope) that the Rebbe will come back in the early show of Techias Hameisim and be the Goel Acharon. It is impossible that Immanuel doesn't know this. But that's beside the point.
Why is it so impossible for two people to discuss something honestly?!
I got a copy of that tape as well, and the way I was told by the ba'al dovor himself the story went like this: the boy became niskarev to yiddishkeit through Lubavitch (first Ivy League Program and then Mayanot) especially through Rabbi Shochet. He interrupted his university studies and went to learn at or Someach. There this Rabbi kaplan started spewing dirt and insults against LUbavitch and the Rebbe in class, saying that Chabad is outside the realm of Torah and the Rebbe is totally dismissed by all the gedolim as a nobody, neither talmid chochom nor tzadik. This confused him, and he felt that obviously then everything is fake and was ready to drop yifddishkeit and go back to university. As he was still in touch wit mayanot, they told him to wait for Rabbi Shochet before making any decisions, as the latter was expected in Israel at that time to teach at mayanot. He waited, they discussed the issues and decided to confront Kaplan directly, going to his house. First kaplan denied that he ever spoke against Chabad or the Rebbe, but the boy confronted him with the actual events and he had to backtrack and admitted it with the excuse that it was in response to questions. Nobody knew that the boy was also secrtely recording the whole conversation for his own record. In the end that boy went back to learn in Lubavitch, was a talm,id metzuyan and finished semichah, became (and remains) very involved in kvtzoim and became a big baal hashpooh even with a crowd in Williamsburg (at his wedding some time ago there were a lot of streimlech who participated in the simcheh!!). I think he maried into a very choshuve :ubavitch family of chassidim-bneiTorah.
BH there was a beautiful end to this story, thamk you for sharing it. The boy actually sounds honest in the tape - affected by the snags, yes, but prepared with a list of questions and ready to hear the answers. Kaplan sounds like Bill Clinton - history is meaningless, truth is meaningless, only my identity carries any value.
It is absolutely hilarious that snags believe what true Lubavitch ant-establishment (read: anti-Rebbe) believe. Does that make them snags?
Hmmm
stop with the "snag" talk, please, you're scaring away the customers. But it was a nice ending if that was the case.
They don't believe what the anti-Rebbe Lubavitchers believe, they just use that to further try and embarrass Lubavitch and the Rebbe. It helps their cause, that's all.
Interesting story, don't know if the details are true.
Yehupitz:You call the 'snag' guy, names etc, when it comes to Shochat, you nicely say that his claims that the messianics are a minority are 'less than true' ?What gives?You are being two faced.
Btw, the meshichist thing and the craziness this has brought out, plus the fact that almost every yeshiva includes a meshichist element is what most regular folks have against organized Lubavitch(a lot of the other fights are local politics , money issues where both sides are not clean)for Shochat to not realize this or not be candid about it is very unhelpful for the cause.Btw, his 'defense' against Berger was based on the meshichists being a very insignificant part of Lubavitch, something which is not true at all.
The end of the mayseh with this guy 'having a lot of mooshpoim in Williamsburg' sounds like absolute nonsense.We need Moondschien here!
Yehupitz says,
Why is it so impossible for two people to discuss something honestly?!
Because as the Rebbe said many times, they have no geoin Yakov. Lubavitchers (Shluchim) are themselves confused and afraid (of losing money etc.) that"s the REAL truth.
By the way, many of the taanois against Lubavitch is probably true but there is a reason for that..
Why are they confused? Back to square one. Because Chabad has no worthwhile leaders. I'm not just repeating a mantra, I really believe and know this is the core of Chabads problem. (That's why we need a revolution to get rid of the present crap.)
Our present leaders (sic) Krinsky Kotlarsky Shemtov are fighting between each other ( did you hear the latest fight with the Shluchims office and Kotlarsky..?) and the only thing that concerns them is power and money. Moshiach, carrying out the Rebbe retzoinois are the furthest thing they are concerned with. If it was, they would have a little bitul and put natzchonus behind them .
Rebbe, mivtzoim for all of them is a front to have a job and draw more money and more power.
The example they have shown since Gimmel Tammuz it not just deplorable it's outright criminal.
And for the most part Shluchim are brainwashed not to stand up and do something about it. The Rebbe this the Rebbe that...
If someone is not following what the Rebbe said, and the biggest point, is that Sholom is the most important aspect of being a Torah Yid and Chossid, you have nothing to be afraid of criticizing this bastard.
You have a Mitzva to avert the Chillul Lubavitch and call a spade a spade.
Now I'm getting all worked up. I better stop.
RE:
"The Mooshpo'im in Williamsburg" may be North Willy, where the "artists" live, no?
about the Shochat defense against Berger: I would say that the majority of Chabad are NOT ideological hard-core Meshichisten. They believe or don't, and if proven wrong will not still say "too bad, this is still what I believe." Most have been taken advantage of by overzealous Meshichisten in the Moisdos and do nothing about it. Most people are powerless to do anything. So in reality Shochat is right.
Shliach
so basically what you're advocating is to get rid of Krinsky, Kotlarsky and Shemtov and put in Messianists, right? and that'll help Lubavitch?! in what way exactly? have you been paying attention at all?
The 'mooshpoim' are NOT N.Willy, at least in the story, they come with Shtreimals i.e ffb's.
The N.Willy is pretty new to, bekitser there may have been shtreimals at the wedding (if the whole story is not a 'moshol')who were people who helped the guy out(but why a shtreimal not on shabbos?)Or family members of the Kallahs side, and koyodua, chasidim wear shtreimals at family weddings.
More mistaber that the 'details' are fictitious, similat to other 'well known' maysehs that turn out to be totally untrue
Shliach
Easy on calling people 'bastards', it does nothing for your cause.
Hirshel
What you say regarding Schochats defense , I just don't get what you are saying.
My impression of Schochats defense, which was on the web a couple of years ago, so I may not recall it well enough, was the use of big english words, with little actual toichen plus the untruth that the Meshichistens numbers are negligible.Well, today at least that is so far from the truth and the meshichists ranks INCLUDE members of his own close family
Tzig, in one easy paragraph you do shliach in? Your skills improve every day!
anonymous, then I am glad that you do not need to rely on your poor memory of Rabbi Schochet's defense, and can actually listen to it again, now. And shliach's goal IS to have them declared bastards, how will he accomplish that without calling them bastards?
Your skills improve every day!
I try mine best.
anonymous,
I call them bastards AFTER I stated their transgressions. Did you read?
Tzig,
Did I say anything about Moshichistim?
I said that the current leadership has created, lets even say (very generously) "inadvertently" a tremendous Hashpolo to the name of Chabad in the world. It's no secret. The Veltishe, MO. Yeshivish, Reform, Conservative, all think of Chabad over all, a lot worse than before gimmel Tammuz (and I'm trying to be very guarded with the way I say things)
The only ones to blame are the ones who stand before the spotlight and "take the credit". There needs to be a revolution in Chabad and vote in NEW leadership Ish (im) asher ruach Elokim besoichom, that they can find ways to deal with all the factions peacefully.They can be peace seekers rather than mecharchev riv and, it's my way or the highway.
Krinsky Kotlarsky Shemtov are not Rebbes,( I know some would like to think so) and this isn't Russia, so the only way it will work is by being a mentch. Is that too hard to expect, from Chassidim?
Find the common thread, find where we all agree on what needs to be done and focus emphasize on those points. Not the current chayos hasodeh who have no morals (Halocho or mentchlichkeit) and they are vultures animals of prey.
And I say to you, Mr. shliach, that as bad as the current leadership may or may not be, if we hold elections we will vote in people without an ounce of selflessness in them, without an ounce of common sense in them, without an ounce of ability of sensitivity to the Rebbe's horo'os. In short, probably people like you.
to Shliach
it looks like you lost lately a din torah with a head shaliach.
'In short, probably people like you. '
More probable that they'd be like you....
Re details of "rest of the story" by anonymous at 10.52am, I checked it out and it is correct. Boy's name is Manuel Stauffer. He married Menachem Blau's daughter a year ago, and there were a number of streimlech at his wedding of his mushpoim - wearing streimlech in his honor. Yossie Jacobson of Choivevei Toiroh can give you more details about him.
His Mushpo'im married since and now wear Shtrymlech? that was quick!
Ein kamocha kainternet for bringing the light of day...
I guess we can say with finality - Emannuel won this argument.
What story has panned out?
The anonymous 10 52 wrote '' became (and remains) very involved in kvtzoim and became a big baal hashpooh even with a crowd in Williamsburg (at his wedding some time ago there were a lot of streimlech who participated in the simcheh!!). ''
A lot of shtreimlach of his mekurovim???Now why would his 'mushpoim' be putting on shtreimels?You would really be pushing it to think that a fairly new ba'al teshuva, who probably knows little yiddish etc could interact with the Willy chasidim and even be MASHPIA on them, c'mon who are you kidding?(I know it's Purim next week but still..)Eloh mai, they are non religous that he was mekarev?Hodroh kishyah leduchtah, why in heaven would Lubavitcher mekurovim be wearing shtreimlach?(So they did it just as 'shtick' to be mesameach choson vekaloh, eh? So what has this got to do with chasidim in Williamsburg?>)
Folks, parts of this story, if not the whole thing are a good old fashioned 'Bobeh mayseh'
Hmmm, interesant where you see light, I see confusion.We know zero about this story, for now at least
yom tov in deine hoizen, he gives details which can be verified or not. Go verify, if you care, but your efforts at analyzing shtreimelach don't change anything.
Shliach
Kol happosel bemumo poisel.
Being that u are disillusioned, doesn't mean that every shliach is. Do u learn Chasssidus daily? go to Mikva? Carry tefillin with u when u go out? maybe u do, possibly don't, sometimes the inspiration is from simple things.
Your suggestions (elections) as to who should lead Lubavitch will get us Kuti Rap or the like.
It does sound like u have a bone to pick with Krinsky/Shemtov, but, believe it or not, the rebbe put them in that position.
Also keep in mind that when the greatest crisis of the Rebbes leadership took place - it was Krinsky/Shemtov that the Rebbe trusted the situation too.
A shliach
if I remeber correctly its still a very contentious matter who put krinsky any where else but driving a car.
The Rebbe told off Shemtov plenty times. He never did anything in his mokoim hashlichus and is out for nothing else but money in crown heights
His excuse to milk Perelman all these years.
when did Shemtov do anything else but try to make a name for himself. Lets not get into the politics and years it took to build bais rivkah.
I f it's so tru that the Rebbe put them where they are why would they never go to a Bais Din and proudly show their credentials.
I think many valid points are being made and people are genuinly afraid to publicly say anything out of fear of reprisals.
men burchet but when it come to tachlis everyone is afraid.Elections is th e way the Rebbe himself advised we should do things,
I f the majority voted for Kuti than that's what the people want.
what you're also a communist who knows smarter than everyone else.
Leave it up to the Ramada to make chorev.
Contention is in the mind of the conspiracy nut...
Dear Sheluach
Do you believe in certified legal and halachic will?
This car driver thing is demagogery at its worst,
Now is the time of year for VeNahapoch Hu, and making from Shliach a Mishloach... A new custom for Head Shluchim to follow.
B"H
The deal with the Streimlach simply put is as follows: There was a group of Chassidishe who he was in contact with before he became frum. They were totally blown away by the fact that he became a Baal Teshuva and in the relatively quick time in which he learned Yiddish (Yes he learned Yiddish and I was actually there on his birthday one year when he said an entire Maamar, Baal Peh, in Yiddish fluently. They all arrived with their Striemelach (it was Moitze Shabbos) and were all dually impressed, and couldn't believed it.) Mystery solved. I love the way people on this blog jump to their own conclusions with no facts. Enough said.
Is there a way to download these files?
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