Friday, February 16, 2007
Machlokes Haposkim about Miami
(Exhibit A, via Hydepark)
Chassidishe Rebbes have come out against any "young" person traveling to Miami Beach. They've also signed on all kinds of rules and regulations as to where you're allowed to visit in Miami, even if you're old. Places like the Boardwalk and the Zoo are off limits, as are condos facing the ocean. Read the Kol Koreh for the complete set of rules. North Miami Beach is permitted, according to the poster. The fact that every single flight to Miami and its environs is packed with seemingly G-d fearing Jews who supposedly respect and honor Rabbonim and Bnei Torah is somewhat puzzling to this blogger, but maybe you guys have an answer.
(Exhibit B, via YeshivahWorld)
Next we have an invitation to a Yarchei Kallah event organized by the Miami Beach Community Kolel, a satellite of the BMG at Lakewood. Some of the speakers there include a young Reb Malkiel Kotler, a few very young Avreichei HaKolel, a very young Rosh Hakolel, a very young Rosh HaMechinah Rav Zvi Eliyohu Meir Schmelcer, and presumably young people living in Miami Beach. There will shiurim for men and shiurim for women, and shiurim on all kinds of subjects. It seems to me that the Yarchei Kallah was made to coincide with the mass influx of Jews from New York coming to rest up in Miami Beach, otherwise why not make it in May or October? So not only are they not listening to the Vizhnitzer and Skulener Rebbes, they're encouraging people to come! So what's a guy like me to do; I'm nisht ahin and nisht aher, not a Skulener or Vizhnitzer, and not a "Ben Torah," what am I supposed to do, not go at all, or go and also go to the Yarchei Kallah. My travel agent is waiting for an answer.
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A certain shul was having trouble hiring a Rabbi that appealed to everyone. Eventually, the search committe decided to circumvent the problem by installing a computer database of piskei halacha. A congregant would enter his sha'aloh at the screen and then select an answer: Yes, No, Yes but..., There is a koolah that allows it, Better not to but b'sha'as hadchak..., and No problem. The computer would then search the database and find the Rov who paskened according to the stated preference.
Well, that works for me.
Wow, H, I'm stumped.
Maybe it's a plot - they plan to bust all the folks that come to the supposed "winter yarchei kalla" and expose them as flagrantly disregarding the gedeilim publishing their embarresment full with mug shots and pashkevillen costeing them community standing and any hope of good shidduchem (resulting in all attendeed haveing red-headed son in laws)??
Your last posting is classic Hirshel Tzig; Circus Tent at its best!!
Have a good Shabbos.
A Simple Jew
Hmmmmmmmmmm, it seems to me that the Right hand (gadol) dosen't speak to the Left hand (godol)...
I love the heter for zekanim!!! LOL!
the emes is Miami is a cherpah ubushoh. How anyone frum can be there is a mystery. On the streets there is loi sosuru.
:) There is a chance that the kol kore is a forgery or a very nasty pre-Purim prank. The Skulener, he should live and be well, was not in any condition to read and sign pashkvilkelach at the time that was issued.
I wish they would issue the same thing about Sydney so that we wouldn't get so many Meshuluchim down here in Tachton She'ein Tachton Lemata Mimenah!
I suppose this whole matter is strange to Chabadniks - as we all know that they have no yetzer hora at all. They can send their young bochurchiks to the most pritusdigeh places (Sydney Bondi Beach, Honolulu, Bangkok and all the disgusting Thai beach resorts where local shiksas and tourists and indeed Israeli backpakcerettes wander around like Adam Harishon kodem hachet, and not one Chabad leader bats an eyelid.
OTOH charedi and chasiddish Jews who sadly WERE created with a yetzer hora understand the dangers and are concerned about all the michsholim and re'iyos asuros that these places offer and at least try to warn their tzibbur off.
Seeing that you, Tzig, come from a normal background, surely you would know of these dangers.
A MO acquaintence who was in Thailand's Koi Samoi (sp?) beach resort during the kinuus hashluchim last year told me that the local Chabad House and restaurant - which is near the beach - was being run by Lubavitch Yeshiva boys.
He - no great tzaddik himself - was shocked and asked the boys, what about the temptations here of almost naked women everywhere? They replied it is true, and they try their best to control themselves!
Is this what the rebbe expected? This is the derech HaBesht? To expose chassidishe kids to such tinofes - and indeed make a whole derech and mivtza of it??
So rather than make choyzek of those who at least try to stop their young people travelling to such pritzusdigeh places, have a good look at your own community where such nisyonos are forced upon your youth.
you're obviously suffering from some kind of complex, but I'll try and help you out here. The point of the post was not to poke fun of the Issur to travel to Miami Beach. I fully understand it. I just had a dilemna whether or not the Kolel was ignoring the Issur or not. We all know that the Heimishe Tzaddikim all ignore the Issur, but they're allowed to, only the Lubavitcher isn't, right?
The point about Lubavitch sending their Bochurim to places you mention is totally untrue. They do not send young "Bochurchicks" to these places, and the Bochurim running the restaurant were of marriageable age and working for a family of Shluchim, part of which was running a Kosher restaurant for the thousands of Jews who come there. I suppose you would find it difficult to travel there and Halt zich ayn for a few weeks, but these Boychiks do a fine job. They're also there that when Di sheine Yidden from BP and Willy go to Bangkok צו זינדיקען דארט מיט די ז---- There's a Lubavitcher Shliach there for him when he decides to do Tshuvah and come to shul.
I see. Lubavitch bochurim of marriagable age kenen zich dreyen oyf di gassen and beaches of the ervas haaretz Pattaya and Phuket?? That makes sense to you, does it? Nice preparation for establishing a bayis ne'eman beyisroel. I suppose they can get tips from the thousands of Israeli backpackers of both sexes on how to run a yiddishe shtub.
Tzig, have you become such a party man that you REALLY don't see the problem with bochrim in Thailand and other such similar places.
I don't believe it.
Interesant that I'm a Lubavitcher and I don't know from any Phuket and Pakkayat or whatever other names you mention and you do. You the farzorger. I'll say again that I don't think they "drei zich oyf di gassen," but if they do then it's the responsibility of them and the shluchim who bring them there.
I'm getting sick of your auto-response to anybody critical of Lubab.'Willoby scheezel' brought up a subject that may have become jaded in the eyes of many a Lubab, instead of dealing with the issue that he brought up,if Lubab boys are exposed to things they should not be, you claim he has a 'complex'.Look in the mirror.
Bichlal, your whole post, is an attack against Oilem hayeshivos, but, obviously you know that the rabbonim who signed the anti-Miami kol koireh are Chasidish, not Yeshivish, so what is the 'setirah' you found?
In general the crowd going to Florida is not Yeshivish, it's actually mostly chasidim and MO.
Shygetz:The plural of PASHKEVIL IS pashekeviln, not the word that you twisted
Sadly they do. I was in the Chabad Bangkok restaurant (and Chabad House) last year - and it is indeed a gevaldig toeles for travellers, with minyonim and kosher food etc.
But to see young bochurim sitting at the tables 'shmoozing'/being mekarev female Israeli backpackers, was pretty disgusting. To give u an idea of the tzenius there, there is a box of shawls at the entrance - with the hope that some of these very underdressed girls have the seichel and menchlechkeit to put them on whilst in a religious environment. While I was there it seemed that about 30% did so. The rest parade in their very untzenius clothing. DEFINITELY NOT THE PLACE FOR A CHASSSIDISH BACHUR.
((((((((((((YAWN)))))))))))))) I purposely used that plural to show my umm..respect for these kinds of asher yotzor papierelach. Kush mir in tzitzis and get a life.
Willyboy, wake up - the Rebbe took on his shoulders a great responsibility, to allow his bochurim (yes, his bochurim) to go to ervas haaretz, betuchim bekocho shel oso Zokein, and to not be affected. That means he has tremendous shoulders, not your small-minded interpretations.
Businessman as well - does this mean that a Jew who dresses immodestly should not be exposed to Yiddishkeit? Will you walk out of a business meeting where a woman is dressed inappropriately? To you the site is disgusting because of your katnus hamochin, to me - I see a Gilui Elokus.
Tzig, as usual you ask great questions. I don;t know what the world would do without you!
BUT, please be advised that YW had BOTH of these posted on his site before Hyde Park did.
Fine post by Tzig.
A few points -
1) The kol korei seems to say that years ago things were okay, it's just lately that a certain stretch there changed to a beach. Are their facts correct ? I wonder. Years ago there was no peritzus there ??
2) Limayseh, Florida is one of the major Lubavitch centers (maybe #2 after NY-NJ).
3) They say that Miami Beach is beoifen kloli a city of harbeh pritzus vetiuv. What about NY?
4) What about other cities where frum Yidden live that in warm weather (which is not necessarily only July and August) are similar to Miami ? Should we all move to Alaska ? Even there they have a shtickel summer I think.
5) What about Los Angeles ? Are they going to take aim at that next ? Palm Springs ? תּל אביב?
Snag 44, aka YW:
I imagine that YW had it first, him being first with all the "REALLY IMPORTANT" news, like which R"Y gave a shiur at BMG, but I credited where I took it from.
"So what's a guy like me to do; I'm nisht ahin and nisht aher, not a Skulener or Vizhnitzer, and not a "Ben Torah,"
The plight of a Lubavitcher in eylem hazeh. Between a rock and a hard place. Between Litvaks and Chagas Chassidim.
עס איז שווער צו זיין א ליובאוויטשער....
Ad mosai ???
To all the satmarers here business and non business people, what the heck did the holy Birech Moshe and his cousin the Nirarterer ZTL,ZYA. do all their life in Miami Beach? The day after Simchat Torah they left for good, they started going there when they were in their high 30's,gezunte ferd, forget about "Shovevim" ,they were officialy supervising a big hashgacha as Meal Mart, that they didnt attend almost the whole winter,
And also their holy Uncle was visiting their afer the Introduction of Shovavim Parshas Vachi,
I see I made it on to today's Yiddish Wiki! pssshh. Very nice indeed. Check it out
The complaints about the bochrim are hilarious. Yes, there are genuine reasons to be concerned about young men in these situations. I've been there a number of times, and I have good reason to know the extreme care taken by the administration of Chabad in Thailand to avoid the possibility of any scandal. These bochrim are largely protected by their dress and their duties: it's not like they hang around bars wearing T-shirts and baseball caps. I would frankly be more worried about bochrim in New York and Yerushalayim, who have endless opportunities to socialise with Orthodox girls in all sorts of venues without anyone noticing.
The funny bit is Willoby's friend. He was visiting Koh Samui (a Thai island known for its beaches) and he's concerned for *their* spiritual welfare?! I don't expect that *he* was dressed in a black suit and hat, or that he was prepared to live on tuna and crackers, the way these bochrim do when they travel. If he was in Koh Samui he wasn't just passing through Thailand: he was there for something that he couldn't find in the resorts of Miami or Hawaii. I only hope he was there with his wife, V"DL.
This issue is overblown like many others. Reb Pinchos Korizter zy"o says, that one of the sharp signs of the Golus is the increasing amount of chumroys, which not only prolong Golus, but also goyrem more dinim (shoyresh of the chumro is din). While going to pritzusdike places is totally weird, making all kind of "screw nuts tighting" (something like making separate sides of the street for men and women) in attempt to prevent such problems, not only doesn't prevent them - it goyrem dinim.
To the Self-Hating Jew AKA Herschel Tzig:
Firstly you owe me an apology.
You have accused Snag44 of being myself.
It's not as you yourself wrote in a different thread, but quite the contrary. It is YOU who is the notorious liar, but we are all used to it already.
In closing get off your high horse and stop being sooooo proud of your self that you made it wikipedia.
It was most probably YOU who put it there.
1) the name is HIRSHEL, not Herschel.
2) I have very good reason to believe it was you. If it wasn't then it wasn't. I would apologize, but you were pretty nasty in that comment, so you lose the apology.
3) I do not write in Wiki, Yiddish or any language, so I would not be able to put the story there. But you knew that too, yet you chose to accuse me of underhanded tactics only you would know how to do.
Happy Presidents' Day, SNAG.
How was Y.W supposed to know whether you write on wiki or not, yet you clame he knew you can't.
You are so circular in your Lubab 'logic'.
For the record, I believe that you did not put yourself on Wiki, it's probably Noam S, who did
using your logic I would say that you write for the Yated, because how was I to know that you don't!
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