Monday, September 14, 2009

Doing it, Russian Style...



We talked about the Polish and Hungarian/Romanian, and how they did or didn't pass on what happened to them during the Holocaust, resulting in their descendants often having no knowledge of the matter. I promised those who disprove me that I'd bake them an Hungarian kugel, and so far I got two requests - rather, two people telling me that I owe them one. One of them tells me in a private e-mail that his zeide - a very, very proud Socialist - spent 5+ years under occupation and in prison and concentration camps, and it was his steadfast belief, in SOCIALISM/COMMUNISM, that carried him through. Among other things he was a human mine detector for one of the armies. It may have been for the Soviets, I don't remember now. Not what one expects to hear, that a non-Torah ideal can keep you strong, but whatever. That zeide did tell his grandkids, maybe because he saw himself as some kind of hero, or he believed in a strong Jewish identity. So we need to discuss the Russian Jew, frum Jew, and see what his descendants know, and if they don't, why that's the case. Me not being of Russian descent, despite my e-mail address, I'll do the best I can under the circumstances, and base it on what I've seen, read and heard from people.

When the Nazis stormed the Soviet Union on June 22, 1941 hundreds of thousands of our brethren were stuck. Before they realized what was happening they were trapped under the Nazi jackboot and were basically resigned to their collective fates. The areas that were immediately occupied were Lithuania, "Litvish Peylen," Western Belarus, and the Western Ukraine. Those living further East or North had time to make plans to get out of Dodge. Most headed to East to the Asiatic Republics. Most Lubavitcher families that made it out were either in Samarkand or Tashkent, and there, for 3-5 years, the cities thrived with activities; learning davenen, farbrengen, despite the terrible conditions there and despite the Communist regime, albeit not like in Russia and the other European Soviet Republics. After 3-5 years in Bukhara most of the Lubavitcher families made it out in 1946 when they were able to escape with Polish passports, due to Stalin allowing all Polish citizens trapped in the CCCP to return home. The end result is that for the SURVIVING families there often was no Holocaust, not in every case, but in many cases.



There WERE many great Chassidim, towns and families that were completely wiped out. Great ones like Reb Itche der Masmid, Reb Chatshe Feigin, Reb Berel Kurenitzer, Reb Yaineh Poltaver, some of whom died a horrible death and weren't zoyche l'kever yisroel, and some who died of starvation and managed to have a place where their descendants could come and daven. But at least as far as survivors are concerned it wasn't Poland and Ger or Aleksander or Radomsk. I also think that Russian are far lesser sentimentalists, at least they were. They had suffered enough under the Communists and were glad to get back to normal. Perpetuating the pain and suffering was not what they were looking to do. I'd venture to say that were it not for the Rebbe, nobody would have written their memoirs. It goes against the grain of what Chassidim were taught along; namely not to make too much of yourself or your deeds. The Rebbe was the one that recognized the need to record and remember what happened, so that their descendants and all of us would never forget (and revise) that chapter in Jewish History.

49 comments:

Anonymous said...

For those who don't know, R' Chaim Stein Shlitah, one of the last MiSnagidish miracle worker, was in Samar.. during the war. No, not with Yumtuph Ehrlich, but with R' Mordcha Zukerman, ZT"l the bavuste tzadik yesod oylam.
Chabad didn't want to write about the war because they don't want their little soldiers to detract their feeble minds from the real Persecutors; Snags (except those who think respected LR), Stoliners (also from the early days) and more recently, historicaly, Satmar.

Oh, and even without LR's prodding, they used the 'everyone else was farkalyed except us'- don't forget that because we are mivatel to the Rebbe.

Anonymous said...

Heshy,
Again,I asked you nicely and again you choose not to pay any attention to my question.
The question was:Vi past ess far dir to be a member of a shul that claims and inscribes a sefer torah mantel with the rather interesting claim that the Rebbe is still "Nosi Hador" and where are the rabbonim of the shul?Are these rabbonim agreeable to this interesting message, to say the least, that the Rebbe is still somehow Nosi Hador? To me and many others it would be challenging to see these rabbonim in a positive light if they went along with this Nosi Hador message.
(I also asked that even if some kind of rational answer could be found for the claim that the Rebbe is still nosi, why would you write that on the sefer torah?What has that "fact" got to do with anything)
I really hope that you will respond.Ignoring this, to me at least, means you are not comfortable with this subject, which again reinforces the question why you would want to associate and even promote such a shul and rabbinate.
All the best for now and looking forward to your addressing this subject

Anonymous said...

How many Chabad families, at most, were saved by fleeing to Asia? I'd venture to say many, many more stayed in there towns and were wiped out.

Anonymous said...

Wasn't it the FR who suggested that Chassidim should write memoirs? The Rebbe continued and encouraged.
Kvcht

schneur said...

There is some much to write about this subject. Firstly millions of JEws were killed by German Einsatzgrupen in the Soviet Union , that includes Eastern White Russia, the Ukraine and Western white Russia.
I posit that a clear majority of lubavitcher (Chabad, Nusach Ari, Kopust, Tmimmim categories) Jews were also killed .
The survivl of some lubavitchers in Soviet Asia was a miracle for them, but pales to the number of Jews of all kinds who were killed including the relatives of those who survived there.They all ahd brothers and sister, parents and uncles who were murdered .
Make no mistake about it there was a Holocaust by the Nazis in the Soviet Union.
Don't get angry for me but Lubavitch did not talk about the Holocaust. I never knew that a Mendel Horenstein existed or that he was a kadosh with his wife until 1968 when I was reading Toldos Maharash. The rebbe's brother Berel was killed .Thatw as only revealed in recent years. I even think his maternal grandfather was a vcitim !
The Rebbe was not interested in talking about the Holocaust because he was into upbeat things , and as he said some one who is "mores Chore" should not be in my daled ames. The goal of Lubavitch was to create an American chassidic group with pop advertsiing in a youth oriented culture. In that case no wonder he had little connection with the KZ camp survivors and others who survived. These people needed rehab and care and Lubavitch was in a major rush shall we say a major offensive -Lechatchilah ariber- miten hanzen shturem und trask , to stop and care for these lost souls who spent time in gehenem.Although he may have talked about the survivors once or twice he never organized activities aimed at the survivors like lets say the Gerer rebbe, the Bobover, the Satmarer, the Kluizenberger Rav and even in his own way the old and physically feeble Belzer rav ZT"L. And don't say there were no children of Lubavitch people among the survivors. Even in my town of NH there were dozens of such survivors , when i talked to them years later they clearly came from Nusach Ari backgrounds.Many Jews from the Kurenitz, Gluboke region survived as partisans and many came from Chabad backgrounds , few reconnected and even fewere got any kiruv from the early wave of Torah Vedaas educated "shluchim". In the place where I grew up NH, the local American born Brooklyn educated Lubavitchers ignored the hundreds of survivors in NH , demanding huge sums of money for tuition in the 1950's less than 6 years after these people arrived from gehenem. Then these same men by and large sought out some freak professors and students from Yale to be mekarev , rather than hundreds of Survivor families. Ater all these people were at Yale ! and spoke Englsih !
Perhaps it was different elsewhere , but I as a son of 2 camp survivors felt a complete disconnect in the local Lubavitcher school. In the 9 years I attended and many more years my 2 brothers were there the HOLOCAUST WAS NEVER MENTIONED(I am not tlking about teaching the Holocaust , just mentioning it !!) by the melamdim and th Headmaster Rabbi Dr. MH., while at home thats all I heard about ... Where was the Rebbe when this was going on ??
In Lubavitch history , the following events are more important than the murder of 6 million Jews : the Communist War agaisnt religion, the lubavitch struggle aginst them , the years in Soviet asia etc. Most important is the rescue of the Rebbe and his family never mind that at the same time 6 MILLION JEWS were MURDERED. Yes there are all heroic chapters in jewish histoy but pale next to the real gehenem that the Churban represented.
I know its Elul, but I did not raise the issue of the Holocaust, I am just sharing my feelings as one who has a Lubavitch background and whose parents were THERE.

Anonymous said...

to paraphrase someone else "Nur der Rebbe, Shtendig der Rebbe, Alz Der Rebbe, Tumid der Rebbe, Veiter der Rebbe, Vider der Rebbe" Vchu'

Tell me , is it true, that the Rebbe is (was??) a Tzaddik in Atzilus Briah Yetzirah Asiyah, and the rest were klenere. If its true, say it loud and clear.

What would R' Mendel Futerfas answer to this question "Ver iz greser, Moyshe Rabbeinu oder der Rebbe"? Please give me verbatim, vi Achashverosh said to Mordechai, Al Tekh'sar Davar.

It is time for R' Mendel to shine.

Anonymous said...

Hershel,
Thank you for posting my question about the new sefer torah in Tzemach Tzedek and its mantel with the Nosi Hador statement.
Can you address the question of how the rabbonim allowed it and if you are comfortable with it?
Thanks.

Anonymous said...

schneur
what a foul mouthed message for the new year, to describe the Rebbe a true oihev yisroel as some Michael Jackson type of a guy,

Anonymous said...

Anon
Is their halachic problem to write on the Rebbe nosi hador? if you will find a halachic dilemma I will answer for Hirshel.
on chassidic hyperbole you dont have to answer, its his feelings and they like to express it. no Rov ever checked on any Rebbe today if you can call him Kevod Kedushas, if he is really a kodosh in his way if eating and in his bedroom so there is no proof for that neither ..

mordechai said...

Schneour,
Firstly get some good kosher soap and wash your mouth and brain out for daring to think and even worse to lepoel write such disparaging remarks on The Rebbe .
After you've done that go to 770 and ask mechila from him

Anonymous said...

Schneur
where did you see for instance the Beis Yisroel having deep feelings for elderly survivors, he was surronded all his life with bucherim not even married guys,

Anonymous said...

schneur
didnt the Rebbe have the beis chabads open Kolel Levi Yitzchok for the elderly

Anonymous said...

Schneur,
my father is a Auschwitz survivor all my melamdim were survivors, all the adults in my shul were survivors and the shoah was never mentioned by none of them,it takes a lot of gall for a New Englader Yankee to preach to survivors how they should come to terms with their past, obviously most of them made a different decision then the new englander yankee.

Anonymous said...

Anon,
"R' Chaim Stein Shlitah, one of the last MiSnagidish miracle worker"
1) Who is he?
2) Isn't Reb Chaim Kanievsky and his Rebetzin the miracle maker

3)can he resolve our dire economic matzav?

yehupitz said...

I think the phenomenon of not giving the Holocaust "its due"is unrelated to Lubavitch.
Now I don't know anything about Lubavitch School's treatment of the Holocaust, but I do know about others, including survivors themselves.

If you want to assign responsibility for silence about the Holocaust among Jews during the 50's, 60's 70's and 80's, the survivors themselves share it. My grandparents were survivors. Based on purely anecdotal evidence, I think most people with survivor parents and grandparents will acknowledge that the survivors moved on with their lives and did not dwell on their experiences at all. I am not even speaking of those who totally clammed up and didn't say a single word about it till their last year. I speak of survivors who would share information if asked, or would give over details in occasional conversations with close family. These people moved on extremely quickly. I think any talk of Holocaust curriculum or "talking about it" would not have fit the consciousness or culture of the survivors themselves. I'm surprised that anyone who knew real Holocaust survivors in the 50's and 60's could suggest that such a program could happen.

seen it all said...

Anon,
"R' Chaim Stein Shlitah, one of the last MiSnagidish miracle worker"
1) Who is he?
2) Isn't Reb Chaim Kanievsky and his Rebetzin the miracle maker

3)can he resolve our dire economic matzav?

I don't know anon and his connection to R' Chaim Stein, but based on the shmutz he writes erev RH, he's definitely not his talmid. R' Stein is a soft-spoken RY in telz, who due to the machlokes has been sidelined from the top 10 gedolim list. After WW2 he helped numerous chassidim get visas to the USA, including some relatives of mine. He's never made outrageous statements about others, therefore u don't hear about him.

Anonymous said...

Yehupitz
Its my belief that 90 % of survivors that stayed frum were not ready to be philosophical about it, since they were not ready to judge the kedoshim if and when they have some kind of way to grasp the schar veonash issue, the churban was so vast and no chazal or seforim hakdoshim with a concise answer, Reb Refoel Muller in his laymen way of thinking discussed the issue at length and alot of frum survivors felt he is a idiot

schneur said...

The truth or at least a varient opinion is difficult to hear.As I said I did not initiate this discussion in Ellul, the host did , I am sharing my feelings as a son of 2 KZ camp survivors .
If you don 't like my feelings , please give me a scholarship to a Lubavitch rehabilitation center to help me think correctly.

Anonymous said...

"He's never made outrageous statements about others, therefore u don't hear about him."

He actually never saw anoyone who didn't 'bruk' untill he came to America. Chasidim were not part of earlier life and therefore, in comparison to other MiSnagdim, he doesn't dislike/hate/suspect/view as boors Chasidim.


He was never really on the list-despit4e the mofsim. But, yes, he has been sidelined to some extent.

'anon,
"R' Chaim Stein Shlitah, one of the last MiSnagidish miracle worker"
1) Who is he?
2) Isn't Reb Chaim Kanievsky and his Rebetzin the miracle maker
No he can't help the economic crises; not all miracles involve daimonds and gashmiyus. You are probably from those who ask about their personal needs in their prayers. Others pray for their name to be back on the Lubavitcher mailing list- Mendy the Golem helped many become good little Snags.

The truth is, that it was not 'in style' to speak about the war until many years later. L's didn't preceede anybody in the recording the war thing. Of course, if Lubavitchers did it, they had the backing of LR.

Chabad exploits the sufferring of many Jews and uses it as a catylist to promote the Lubavitch version of Judaism; only chabad remained faithful under duress, Volozhin closed because they had a haskalah problem and many other slogans that those Russians inundate their schools with.

Read on how in a dictatorship: there are photos of the leader/icon/demogouge plastered all over the schools, they write letters to their leader, the kids chant daily in a singsong the names of the royal family, the kids write polemics about their leader, there is no middle class, it is the leader and all else are equal, they don't respect personal ingenuity and creativeness (bitul?) unless it is used to contribute to the cause of the leader/collective group, there are a lot of war mottos/lingo/terminology used by everybody (even the kids) they exnscript the kids at a youner age than other groups, they are very suspicious of outsiders, they fight with people and mish arayn in things on the other end of the world, they think history started when their movement was created, they have parades flounting their power, they exagerate the numbers of their followers.... I am just getting warmed up

Anonymous said...

it is not true about the Bais Yisroel of Ger who would "have tea" (one on one private meetings) with survivors or would meet them privately in hotels in Tel Aviv. To disenfranchised chassidim he would request that they send him their children as can be seen in the gerrer shtieblich in EF and CH.

yehupitz said...

My experience with Holocaust survivors applies to the frum and to the non-frum equally.

Shneur,
It is not difficult for me to hear any opinion of yours. I have always looked forward to your comments as much as I look forward to actual blog posts.

I hope one day to meet you in person and just listen to you.

Anonymous said...

Anon,
so what kind of Mofsim does Reb Chaim Styen perform, I never heard of Rochniusdige Mofsim,
what exactly is you hangover with the Lubavich mailing list? Mendy the Golem?

Anonymous said...

Didn't the Rebbe sit for hours hearing all Jews from every spectrum, didn't he answer letters for every jew on the globe.

Anonymous said...

Anon,
RE the Beis Yisroel involvement with the survivors,
Hypothetical if the LR would do the same think as talking to them in order they should send the kids to his yeshivahs, the type of people like shneur would claim the Rebbe is a opportunist he uses people and then throws you to the dogs.

Anonymous said...

Anon 712

I was referring to the BY who realized that these survivors (amulidiker gerrer chassidim from before the war) were shells of their prior self from the horrors of the war - that they should at least send their children to him to rebuild gerrer chasiddus as was in the survivors' own youth prior to wwii.These survivors were contemporaries of the BY and chassidim of his father the IM- so your point is irrelevant to think that he was an oppurtunist - he was rebuilding Ger from the inside out - not the opposite

Anonymous said...

I am named after someone who died al kiddush Hashem. I don't even know where. I was never told by my grandparents, and only found out many years later, without really knowing any details.
During my 14 years studying in various Bais Yaakov schools we never had one single lesson on the holocaust, and half the teachers were survivors. They were students of Sora Schneirer, and they wanted to continue their mission and go forward, without dwelling on what happened and getting stuck there.
One uncle once retold how he escaped the camps, but it was more of an adventure story. Anothe r aunt would scream at night in her sleep, by day she was the most regal and productive woman, never dwelling on what she went through.
So how does Lubavitch become responsible for this??
About whoever has a problen with Nosi Hador, you don't have to like it, or agree. Either you get, or you don't. Who appointed you to be our supervisor?

Anonymous said...

Anon 7:35
you didn't understand my message, I said only that people with sinister minds as... will twist everything in a cynical vile fashion

Anonymous said...

The last blogger unwittingly gets to the essence of the discussion. She writes,"without dwelling...and getting stuck there."That was the message all the "greeners" got in this country. If you discuss the holocaust we'll get stuck in a black hole from which there is no return.Neither the frum or secular community could handle the enormity of the holocaust. The survivors got the message either directly or on an intuitive level.This silence must end.we have to deal with the fact that Europe is filled with the bodies and ash of millions of our brothers and sisters. If this means nothing , then tell me what in this universe does have meaning. A Guter Yor alemen.

r-w said...

SHNEUR: I truly enjoy most of your postings here and other blogs. You do bring in a lot interesting unknown or lesser known data and historical info (whether relevant or not, but mostly "juicy"...).
Yet when it comes to Chabad, and specifically the 7th generation and its Rebbe, you unfailingly go amok to the point that one must conclude that your abusive comments display a sociopathic personality disorder, a clear case of clinical psychopathology (and I speak as a professional). It appears that you must have had some "traumatic" experience (real or perceived) with contemporary Chabad, and feel the need to bash in a clear way of what we call "explosive personality".
Your contacts and conversations with strawBerry, or Shimmy (Webster: 'wheels' vibrating abnormally...)you take as infalible revelation, feding your personal pathology and totally forgetting the jaundice underlying them (did you ever speak to the recently deceased rabbi Fuchs, Barry's chavrusa in Otwozk? Probably not, to close to home and uncomfortable...). In the context of Chabad and the Rebbe you are consistently, and no more than a parallel version of Scottie Rosenberg.
I cannot accept your anticipated response that you feel obliged to publish the truth, and do so (of course) leshem Shamayim. No yerei Shamayim,, and no true pursuer of truth, would speak (let alone write) the way you do [and don't tell me 'well, Lubavitchers write in similar tone about misnagdishe gedolim;' my response would be simply (a)then they are indeed no yerei Shamayim, and (b)in any case two wrongs don't make a right].
Shneur, I don't write this to bash you, but to plead with you to reconsider your attitude for your own sake [personally I am not affected by the rubbish, even if it is painful to see how lowly some people get], especially in these days of teshuvah - for a new start, to become, as Rambam says, a new, better person. Ketivah vechatimah tovah - and le'alter liteshuvah to you, all of us, and klal Yisrael, and then it will be le'alter lige'ulah!

chanie said...

tagged you.... chassidsavoda.blogspot.com

Anonymous said...

"About whoever has a problen with Nosi Hador, you don't have to like it, or agree. Either you get, or you don't. Who appointed you to be our supervisor?"

I am not your supervisor but since I am a member of The Jewish People I thought I may have some input about who my Nosi should be and not being on this earth now is a disqualifier.

Anonymous said...

R-W

From reading Shneur all the years I sense their is something negative in his conscious from his early years in Chabad new haven

Anonymous said...

Anon,11.54
could be you are right the wounds were still raw,

Anonymous said...

To:RW. If you are speaking as a professional then the olem is entiitled to know who you are and what profession you practice. To use a diagnosis asd a means of argumentation reminds me of Uncle Joe [Stalin}. You owe someone an apology before the Yom HaDin. A gut Yohr.

anon1 said...

"reminds me of Uncle Joe [Stalin}."

Very astute and telling comment coming from a nephew of that Uncle. Didn't know that family was into yom hadin-themes. In any case: apology for what? I don't see any insults in r-w's post, just (like your own) his personal observation and conclusions - which you can take or leave - after all you can have 4 or 5 psychiatrists or psycho-analysts arriving at different diagnoses or judgments. KSVT to all.

anon2 said...

agree with anon1. besides, any "profesional" (i.e. educated, rational person, not necessarily a health-care worker) would conclude the same thing - it is so obvious. a git yohr to everyone.

Moshe L said...

anon-1 or r-w (whichever one you are)

Listen up Sir,
Do you think that doing a hatchet job with a psuedo psychological "analysis" of the poster Schneours mental health does us Lubavitchers any good?

He stated facts as he saw them argue with them if you may without going personal.
As a Lubavitcher I agree with Schneour that the Holocaust was not discussed often if at all and almost no mention of the the Rebbes' brother and brother-in-law and other family members who suffered at the hands of the Nazis.
Schneour is one of the few posters who is both knowledgeable and quite objective although we may not always like what he has to say.
Tough

Anonymous said...

I reread Rw. Sociopath, psychopathology. A page from the people who gave you the Gulag.This is a new low.

yehupitz said...

A smart rov once told me "Every rov has his blind spot.". Now obviously everybody was born with a yeitzer hora. What he meant was that even intelligent and clear-minded thinkers have certain issues, or sometimes it's a person, in which circumstances make them less than clear in their thinking about that issue or person.

I don't want to 'analyze' Shneur, whom I respect. So I will say I am defending him. Shneur's "blind spot" is derivative of the fact that he was a close friend of Barry Gourary. Like a good friend, he defends him and his honor. His friend had a bitter fight with "Dor Shvii and its nosi". There is a letter Shneur wrote to Jewish Action some twenty years ago that demonstrates this. I believe that this is the shoresh of the different kinds of less-than-totally-respectful statements Shneur has made about "Dor Shvii and its Nosi". This explains everything. Occam's Razor. Kvod Shneur B'Mekomo Omedes.

I wish Shneur and the whole gang here a Kesiva V'Chasima Tova.

Anonymous said...

is a MiSnagid who learns Chasidus but doesn't like Lubavitchers like the lonely tree that fell in a forest?

Anonymous said...

point to ponder

Barry claims that LR asked him to go against his father. Was Shneur also asked?

Anonymous said...

Moshe L
I don't believe you are a Lubavicher,
plus all the anti Chabadniks were upset whenever the Rebbe mentioned his brother,
what kind of language was that, that Rebbes close cicle were pop culture people, would you Call Rav Chodikiv, Rav Mindel, Rav Rotstien and Rav Quint...Youth oriented Culure

Again A shona tova for our great Shneur

w-r said...

I note the various reactions to my post. Looks like some people have problems with reading comprehension. I have no quarrel with Shneur, nor for that matter with his view of the treatment (or lack thereof) in the Charedi world or Chabad. He is entitled to his opinion even if we, or I, see it differently. My critique relates exclusively to the continuous disrespectful and crude way he speaks of the Lubavitch Rebbe. Religious Jews, nor refined non-religious Jews, don't speak that way about gedolei Yisrael regardless who they are/were. When seeing that he does so consistently, time and again, that provides evidence of a definite complex he has in this matter of unwarranted and inexcusable behavior, which obviously must have its roots in some traumatic experience. And yes, this is falls into the category of psychopathology and a sociopathic disorder. To my critics this may sound insulting as obviously they have no clue what these terms mean. I bring this to Shneur's attention so that he should work on that even if whatever past experience he had may make this difficult for him. I have no reason to hate, or even dislike, him and sincerely wish him well in everything. As I said, I enjoy most of his postings and find him a well of interesting information, but this nonsense has to stop. Shanah tovah umetukah to Shneur and everyone else, with full internalization of everything that Rosh Hashanah signifies (including to be ma'avir al midotav and to start with a clean slate).

Anonymous said...

yasher koach for your story re the ME on chabad.org, beautiful

http://www.chabad.org/holidays/JewishNewYear/template_cdo/aid/951088/jewish/One-More-Blast.htm

מענדל said...

To the fellow who is worried about nosi hador. Check out the gemara about shimshon being shofet for forty years. IIRC twenty of them were after he brought the house down on himself.

Kesivah Vachasimah Tova.

Mendel
הירשעלע
ווי גיין די הכנות צו בנין המלכות?
א גוט געבענטש יאר בגו"ר.
מענדל

Anonymous said...

"Check out the gemara about shimshon being shofet for forty years"

Where is that gemorah?

Anonymous said...

Baba Maisah 23b

מענדל said...

See yerushalmi sotah perek alef halacha ches.

מענדל

Anonymous said...

schneur i envy your oilem habo. youll be reunited with your friend Bere the book thief and a few more characters and you may even get yechidus with Stalin ymach shmoi.