Tuesday, April 27, 2010
?למה נקרא שמו ברוך דוב
"בפרבר פודליבצה שבעיר זו (סלוצק) נולד רבינו הגאון רבי ברוך דב לייבאוויץ בחודש כסליו תרכ"ד"
"In the village of Podlivce, in this suburb of Slutsk, was born our Rebbe the Gaon Reb Boruch Ber in the month of Kislev, year 5624"
The line was taken from the book מלאך ה' צבקות, about the life of Reb Boruch Ber Leibowitz, zt"l, Rosh Yeshivah of Knesses Beis Yitzchok Kamenetz-Litovsk. published several years ago. Ok, so they know the town, they know the month and they know the year. I would say that they probably know the day too, wouldn't you? So why would they not post it? Here's what I heard from an eynikel of RBBL just today. Reb Boruch Ber was born bein hashmoshes between the 18th and the 19th of Kislev. So what does one who was born between the yohrtzeiten of Reb Boruch'l Mezhibuzher and the Mezritcher Maggid get named? Boruch Dov (Ber)! Simple enough and very practical, if you ask me. But I guess the one who put this fine book together had a bone to pick with Chassidim, even of that generation, and even the great Chassidic Masters, and he would have none of that in his book. Which is sad really, since RBBL was such a great unifier, one who everybody of all kreizen cannot help but have respect, and they had use him when causing such strife and divide. If that's the case - that it's simple revisionism of the first degree - then it's a crime against humanity. Plain and simple. The eynikel taynes that he heard it from Karliner Chassidim decades ago.
But think about it for a moment. Nowhere in the book is there any mention of his father's connection to chassidim at all, so why would Reb Shmuel name him in their honor, dates not withstanding? Yes, he (RBBL) davened with a gartel later in life, but that was RBB only, and only after spending some years in chassidic Kremenchug. (by the way, his daughter would sleep with that gartel under her pillow for the rest of her life - azoi heilig iz dos geven ba ihr...) I doubt that most Litvishe nit-chassidim knew the yohrtzeiten of chassidic luminaries, no matter whom. Maybe they knew about Yud Tes Kislev. But according to our resident sage Reb Schneur a chossid was not allowed to stay the night in Slutsk (!) - which made Reb Cheskel Abramsky a de facto Lubavitch hater - so why would they honor the Rebbes there. OK, so this was a suburb of Slutsk, so maybe there they were allowed to spend the night...
What say you?
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צבקות: that's how we say it and write it.
What geza Chasidim was his family from? Karlin ? did they drink Pumsh on Cha-yat Kislev?
Before the war the misnagdic world would never use such a stupid name for a biography
The book has a great story: Reb Burech Ber's response to Chasidishe boys in the yeshiva who said that one of the older bucharim was not yoytzey tfilin because he had a big chup.
he started wearing a gartel because when on datche when he was an avel. he davend with the minchas elozor, who asked him to wear it beforr the amud. ... ... ..
Wonder whether the story you heard from BB.Grozovsky is true.
As your usual 'truthful' sel you never mention that the grandson happens to have drunk the "koolaid".
You continue to build a whole buiding based on your assumption that if this maaseh is true the author of the book knew it....
Well,well...I"ll give slack,you have a feeble mind after all.
sen it all:
I did not hear it from BBG, you ________
looks like your skull full of mush can't handle the fact that there's no Chabad connection to the story.
which geza chassidim? I don't know
Din in Shulchon Oruch.
Chazon Ish wore a gartel.
I would be very surprised if the b.maaseh is true.Same nonsense was claimed about R'Shneour Pines,as if he had a family Lubavitch connection.
R'BB had nothing,nada,zero to do with Chsides.He was an ehrliche yid and the Lubavitch practice is to try and claim that yiddishkait started with Lubavitch.
So for the sake of historical truth the leader of The Conservative Movement,president of JTS was
שניאור זלמן שכטר
Named after----- and from a Lubavitcher family
now go away.
I must contribute to the discussion, what i had personally heard from a descendant of R' Boruch Ber (actually a respected Lubavitcher chosid in Yerushalayim) - that he indeed was named jointly after R. Boruch of Mezhibuzh and the Mezritcher Maggid, as his family was from a chasidishe kreiz/area.
I then asked him, so why is it omitted in the bio - he smiled, Nu it's part of the agenda..
"I then asked him, so why is it omitted in the bio - he smiled, Nu it's part of the agenda.."
Said by a Lubavitcher with no "agenda".
"he davend with the minchas elozor, who asked him to wear it beforr the amud "
is this story in the book?
isn't the short guy from Kamenitz Israel family that lives near toras emes a einikel? (forgot his name)
Seen it ..
"R'BB had nothing,nada,zero to do with Chsides"
if you are definite then how can the other story be true, you ferd
What agenda are you talking about?
An anti Chasidim one?
If you read the book (I"m sure the tzig did not, he always mouths off...)you will see that he writes in detail that there were quite a few chasidim in full levush in R'BB's yeshiva! Something quite unusual in Litvishe yeshivos (and might I add Lubavitch, were the Poylishe boys in Otvock did not keep their Chasidishe levush for very long..)
So I don't see the agenda there.
If you are talking about an anti Chabad agenda:What does "hiding" being named after the Mezritcher Magid have to do Lubavitch..?
And now what is most probably the truth.....
R'BORUCH DOV was probably not named after R'DOV BER, the hypothesis is an unlikely one.Someone put the birth in Kislev with the second part of R'BBs name and made a chulent.Could it be true?Sure, but anyone building whole stories based on such a weak basis is probably a member of the naive society who believes in numerous conspiracies.
Sorry, I won't accept a story from a great grandson about a person who was born 154 years ago especially since the scion is not exactly "unbiased".
If someone can substantiate this WITH A real source I"d be less skeptical.After all Lubavitchers don't expect objective people to believe ALL the stories and agendas against Chabad,do you???(even though there is no lack of REALLY crazy stories in Chabad that are unfortunately true and involve lots of damage control,right?)
Rbb has an einkel in yerushalayin R Lichtshtein whose father was RBB eidim who became a heise chabadsker. this einikel is a tremendous machnis oirach and has many brisker bochurim over for seudos.
TO ALL YOU KNOW-IT-ALLS:
please come up with an answer as to why the DOB is unknown, when they know everything else.
I read it cover to cover and reviewed it yesterday. You're welcome.
"Sorry, I won't accept a story from a great grandson about a person who was born 154 years ago especially since the scion is not exactly "unbiased" "
then the whole book that was written 152 years after he was born is nonsense,
Every normal Yiddish family has a tradition on the names where they come from, maybe BP is different
R'Don Ungarisher s-i-l of R'Reuven Grozovsky s-i-l of R'BB has a little Chasidishe netiyah,his grandkids don't shave and wear gartles.
I think two grandkids of R'BB got involved with Chabad.BBGrozovsky got hooked in Philly and another one lives in Yeshusholayim and has many yeshiva boys as guest on shabbos
Come up with a reason why all the chasidim are fighting over when the BAAL SHEM TOV was nifter,although you guys know "everything about him"??
And you show what an ignoramus you are, many people had no idea when they were born, you did not get a birth certificate from NY City hall like today so your father can run and apply for food stamps for you
The book has recollections of talmidim and original documents, it's not the infamous Zichroines book with gebebteh mayses vus zennen nisht gefloigen.......
comparing the Besht's time to RBB's is what? asinine? juvenile? take your pick.
most people knew when they were born, they know when they had Bar Mitzvah. At least the men.
Why is comparing R'BB's birth to Beshts assinine??Because they had computers in 1866?
Because birthdays held any importance for anyone,especially for non chasidim?
Because Chasidim have always made a BIG DEAL over yohrtzaits and not agreeing on when the founder of the movement passed away, means nothing?
Who is the yold here?
You know,Tzig, you better not get into a fight with me over history, because you have such an overwhelming disadvantage.I can just bring up the Cherson genizah, or what the FR claimed that he saw in the boydem of the Altneushul in Prague,despite the very clear facts to the contrary...
There is a relationship for these two posts as perhaps my "good" lubavitcher (until tzig of course) was this ainekel fellow Lichtshein who had lots of bochurim over. He also served Southorn Comfort very chilled, and for a bochur going through a long zman who usually was with people who held Southorn Comfort to be trief....it was definitely "Kol Ma Shbal Haboy Omer, Asei" and a good time was had by Snagville and his buddies on that long ago Friday Night.
you have the "advantage" with those 2 catch phrases
נישטא ווער ס'זאל לאכן
So to summarize what I learned from this post:
*The author of the bigraphy of R'Boruch Ber is a sonei/yisroel/chasidim/lubavitch
*Tzig has a Deep Throat informant bebeis R'BB
*Tzig is always right
*Snagville loves Southern Comfort
Finally, Tzig, keiner tzvingt dech nisht.You wanna believe in Cherson and the Goylem, gezinterheit!
Don't expect me to take your "lessons" in "history" seriously,though.
(btw, speaking about נישטא ווער ס'זאל לאכן
I recently saw a "mechueh" from Rabbi Druckman,a Lubavitcher rabbi, rabbi of Kiryas Motzkin iirc about how a dare anyone claim that the Goylem story was made up by the famous forgerer Yidel Rosenberg, when the Rebbe brings in a published letter in the Igros that F.R went up the the boydem in the Antneuy and saw the remains.Vedal)
Since when is the Golem a Chabad issue? it was known by generations of Klal yisroel before Rosenberg came on the scene? He just created some legends that go with the Golem?
By Klal Yisroel the Noda Beyuda or Reb Akiva Aiger are well accepted in klal yisroel even tough they fell in the trap of a maskil as the publisher of the Besomim Rosh,
What exactly is the kesher of Reb Borech Ber biography with the chesrsoner geniza you imbecile.
Wow!!its amazing how you summed up our Hirshel in 4 lines, what a talent
since you are very good at Rechiles (obviously by the isser of loshun hora is not on chasidim Its not "Oise Mase Amcho.. or in Brisk Loshen Horah iis a mitzva especialy in front of a chumash..)lets get the facts. Did Lichtstien give the Triefe mashke Bemizid, or then it wasn't known yet that its Trief?
Let's go through some of your false claims and ignorant remarks:
-The FR instructed the many Poilisher bochurim (constituting the majority of the Yeshivah) in Otwock to keep their levush - it's noted in R' Shimon Goldman's 'From Shedlitz to Safety', and as someone who spent time around many Otwocker Talmidim, I can testify to the pont.
-Cherson Geniza: see here
- Prague: You obviously have no clue what the Rebbe said. Perhaps look it up before you make yourself look like a fool.
Anyway, why did the Netziv wear a gartel?
U missed the boat. I never said the story as if he was a Choteh Umachtee just that he insisted it was kosher and we should enjoy and we did. Memory is not great of that night for obvious reasons but I think it was that he had old Schoreh from before they started mixing wine in it. BTW, I never learned in Brisk.
attacking my character and calling me names may make you feel good, but they sure don't answer the questions posed here.
TO all the doubters as to the names-
I am the Anonymous of 4:47. Besides HT saying he heard it from an eynikel today, I will disclose that the person who told me is an ur-eynikel, R. Lichtstein of yerushalayim himself..
More re Golem, this is the pianuach of a handwritten note of the Rebbe (printed in the Kfar Chabad several years ago. I just emailed the tzilum to HT to post oline):
במענה לקונטרס שמחברו ניסה להטיל
ספק ביצירה הגולם ע"י המהר"ל מפראג כתב הרבי:
בנוגע לס' נפלאות המהר"ל והאגרות וכו' שמזכיר- לא עיינתי בהן ובמילא איני מחוו"ד בזה כלל..
ובנוגע לעיקר הענין (שהמהר"ל עשה את הגולם) – בעצמי שמעתי מכ"ק מו"ח אדמו"ר
שראה הנשאר ממנו – בעליית ביהכנ"ס המהר"ל בפראג. ודיבר עד"ז עם אביו כ"ק אדנ"ע וכו'.
הקושיות שבהמצו"ב על הס' הנ"ל- אין נוגעות כלל בהעיקר, כי מכו"כ עשיריות שנים
לפני ההו"ל של הס' הנ"ל הי' מפורסם בתוך בנ"י שהמהר"ל עשה גולם, ואפילו – אצל
הא"י (=אינם יהודים), ועיין בהס' בהספריות (כמצויין באנצקלפדיות) להחזיר המצו"ב.
הפס"ד בשו"ע: בכל דרכיך דעהו: מה יתוסף אצלו (=השואל שי') בתומ"צ ע"י בירור הנ"ל ?
thanks for clearing it up and Fougedabodit
You are an amusing guy.Seriously.Reading your partisan rants makes me chuckle.
The Cherson Genizah is a documented fraud accepted by everyone,besides you know who,right?
Your nonsense about the Goylem makes me think that maybe the Goylem had a twin...
I shudder to think what goes for "history lessons" in Cheder Lubavitch in Monsey
tell me: why do you feel the need to go off on a tangent and address totally irrelevant topics?
Why can't you stick to the topic at hand?
You are not comfortable with the topic? Hagiography is part of the Lubavitcher curriculum after all
Listen, you built a whole building attacking the author of the biography based on circular logic.He "must have known that R'BB was named after the Mezritcher and R'Burech" blah,blah..
I firstly asked you why you were so sure, after all you don't really have a reliable source,right?
That is how we got to this Lubavitch view of "history" based on false assumptions and circular logic.
What you could have done is related a story that you heard from R'BB's grandson, asked the bloggers what they thought about it.Instead you turned it into a sordid story of conspiracies...
What a horrible way to live, seeing nasty "snags" behind every tree.You need help.
It's an interesting world we live in!
There is a yid in tefiseh (not entirely blamless,mind you..)he belongs to Chabad and his biggest supporters and I mean REAL supporters who have raised many thousands of $ help him are none other than the editor of a newspaper founded by Chabads biggest foe.The important difference is that Chabad was only a theological enemy, but when push comes to shove and a yid needs help all party affiliations are set aside.
Can't you Lubavitchers grow up (yes I mean you Hirshel and Mottel..)and leave your old 200 year hate from a long forgotten machloikes behind??
The Rebbe used to always quote "memenu yir'u vechein ya'asu".Your "biggest" enemy is prepared to brush aside recent history away and step up to the plate, while some Johnny-come-latelies who joined Chabad recently are the biggest haters.Unless the reason they joined was because they needed someone or something to channel their rage against .Could be something going back to childhood.
we're talking about a book published three years ago, and it seems like it's not Chabad that can't forget....
But a nice plug for Lipschutz, G-d bless him.
"we're talking about a book published three years ago,"
Do you suffer from Adult ADHD?
You totally did not understand a word I wrote???
You claimed the author "knowingly" left out information and you have no evidence of it!
(Why would I be plugging pinny lipshutz?.I mentioned a fact, that's all.Wonder what you did for Rubashkin or the guy in the mizrach)
NO, MY FRIEND
so far you've gone off on two tangents.
HIS EYNIKEL was discussing his zeide with some Lubavicthers, and brought it up. Nobody was poring over "snag" books looking for blog fodder.
You are not answering my question.
You accused the author of "covering up" the "fact" that R'BB was named after the Mezritcher.
How do you know that he knew and he covered up?
I am not accusing, the EYNIKEL, who proudly has a picture of RBB on the wall in his dining room, accused them. He bases it on the fact that they know everything else BUT the day, which makes no sense, since the year would be less important and significant than the day. Take it up with him, or better yet, try and find out if THEY'RE covering it up.
Thinks BOROpk - you insult me, my education (though I've never been in Monsey longer then a day) and then say that I keep the hate going! Ha!
It's obvious from your commens that you still haven't read what the Rebbe actually said about the Golem . . . and I doubt you looked at the letter in igros on the khersoner geniza either . . . Sad.
Sorry about the personal attack but for me there is nothing more infuriating than partisan subjective people.When it comes to Chabad that is what you are.I"m sure that you and Hirshel could be nice guys and we could get along as long as "hot subjects" are not discussed.
Just a small "he'ora" about levish in Chabad that ALL the talimidei Otvock changed into short jackets and cut off the long Poylishe style peyos.When did it happen? I don't know,I know that R'shimon Goldman leorech yomim wears a modern jacket and no peyos, same thing the rest of the Poylishe Chadskers from Montreal.So somewhere down the line they felt uncomforatble with traditional Jewish garb.
About the Genizah:
In the comments to the thread posted by Hirshel about the Geniza you can see that the "defense" of the Geniza was torn to bits.The Geniza btw, is used as a classic example of a forgery and everybody agrees about it.
The Goylem claim is laughable,it really is.
Either you I missed some lines on the post or you edited it.
This part : "If that's the case - that it's simple revisionism of the first degree - then it's a crime against humanity. Plain and simple. The eynikel taynes that he heard it from Karliner Chassidim decades ago."
Now I see that I was right about the "impeccable source".The source is not even a family kabolo, it's something "he heard from "Karliner chasidim".Wow, that really sounds like something you can vouch for!!!
(to make it clear I"m being cynical here)
*Also, don't you think that even according to you and your fellow partisans calling this a "crime against humanity" is,eppes, ah bissel ibergetribben???
as ibbergetribben as some of your rambunctious statements, yes.
I didn't edit a word you wrote.
He says he heard why he was named Baruch Ber years ago, from Karliner chassidim (I guess they're also posul l'eydus, right?) and then 30 years later he asked the question why in the "official" biography they knew of no birth date...
By the way, nice hack job on the Otwocker. You're a piece of work.
I did not accuse you of editing my post, I was talking about YOUR post.
I never noticed earlier that the "source" for your "source" was "heard from Karliner chasidim".
So you asked if they are possul leydus? Since I don't know them I can't answer.What min hastam is the truth is that when you ask the "karliner chasidim" they will probably tell you they cannot vouch for it.
Anyway, "kah haben sho'el".Why does said "eynikel" need to bring "proof" of his great grandfathers birth from anonymous "karliner"? (and since when are they the "mevinim" on R'BB?)Why couldn't he say he heard it fro R'BBs son or R'Don Ungarisher or others???
I guess that is how reliaBLE THIS IS.
Karliner clebrate Chai-Yat Kislev, which is maybe why they told him. I doubt his mother would know her zeide's birthday or discuss it if she did. But the researcher sould know it - if he so chooses.
any thoughts on what you lied about the Otwocker?
There is a yingerman in Bnei Brak or wherever, trembling in his boots, scared of being dragged to the U.N High Court in The Hague accused of "crimes against humanity"!
נישטא ווער ס'זאל לאכן
"The Cherson Genizah is a documented fraud accepted by everyone,besides you know who,right? "
where is the geniza related to this discussion, Did Hirshel Tzig sell it to someone? did the Lubacvicher Rebbe forge it? he bought a "fradulent" item from some dealer thats all, How about Yitzchok Refoel A choker on Chasidus believed in it. how about the Piaseczner quotes in his works. Again, where is it related to the RBB biography? You are an idiot that comes to recycle your drek with every new post
-BoroPk: So let me get this. You have nothing against me, yet -though I never made a statement about any "hot subjects" (I only commented on your misinformation)- I deserved an ad hominem and offensive attack by dint of the fact that I am a Chabadsker? Cute.
As someone who spent a considerable amount of time in Montreal, it is very clear to me that you are either ignorant or a lier.
Rabbis Hendel, Gerlitzky, and -l'havdil bein chaim l'chaim - Greenglass all had leinge rekalech. Rabbi Hendel wore a rabbonishe hittel, not a 'normal' Chabad fedorah - Hendel had peios, as does Greenglass to some degree.
As to the fact that they "felt uncomforatble with traditional Jewish garb" - to say such lies about them . . . you had better go and bet mechilah from them . . . You're one sick man.
I would probably do some research about when some of the Montreal 9 restarted wearing langeh reklach.Likewise to the "to some degree" peyos..
Of course some Lubavitcher rabbonim wear rabbinic garb, but that is by dint of their position.
Agav, the type of hat is not as important, it's the traditional Jewish langeh rekel and peyos, that yidden were moiser nefesh for.
It's no secret that when Twersky of Rachmastrivka became an associate his grandfather blew a gasket and "marched in" so to speak to "headquarters" eliciting a promise that the grandson won't start dressing "modern".
Today the "hallmark" of a successful shliach is a nice blue shirt, brown shoes, rebbitzen dressed to the nines and his boys with geshnitzsteh berd, buttons open to the pipik and jeans
keep showing us that your prescription ran out a few days ago..
we went from RBB
to Golem to
to Shluchim's dressing habits
-BoroPk: You are a lier and a charlatan. See this picture of Gerlitzky in his you to see his leinge rekal.
As I said, you had better ask mechila from the Nine Shluchim . . . because you're preparing one hot Hell for yourself to roast in.
How about answering why the "eynikels" farfetched story has to be "backed up" by anonymous "Karliner chasidim"??
You answer "doubting whether his mother would know, or be prepared to discuss it" does no hold water.There are no other family members who know this "deep secret"
Why didn't you ask this fellow why he needs the testimony of strangers, who are not exactly known as the biggest mevinim on R'BB's birthday (besides for it taking place 154 years ago).
As you are supposed to know blog discussions meander, that is why we got to discussing how "reliable" Lubavitch history is.Unfortunately, once you hear their stance on Cherson, the Goylem,R'Moshe ben Baal Hatanyah etc, you realize that it's not very reliable.
But they do serve good vodka and scotch and their kideishim/farbrengens, so not all is so bad!
I've give you credit for being quick with evidence.
Apparently R'gerlitsky is wearing chasidishe levish way back.
We don't know when that happened, though.But I'll agree that maybe some of the Otvocker continued some inkling of chasidishe levish
What percentage of the survivors of Otvock, via Shanghai kept their Chasidishe levish?
Ulepeleh that you bring R'Shimon Goldmans testimony and he is a scion of Gerer chasidim,while he himself dresses in a modern manner
Gerlitsky kept his
Raichik kept his
Wineberg kept his
Hendel kept his
but you have a problem with Goldman, who never even learned in yeshivah in Otwock! he joined the group in Vilna, having run away from Shedlitz after the Nazi invasion!!!!
what about all the hundredsds of sheine Baaleibatim in BoroPark and elsewhere who changed their levush, are they also on your holy chopping block???
"what about all the hundredsds of sheine Baaleibatim in BoroPark and elsewhere who changed their levush, are they also on your holy chopping block???"
Firstly I don't have a chopping block
and secondly the people who changed levish don't claim to be big chasidim and mekishurim,thirdly,I the people you claim kept their levish dressed their kids modern, but I"m not so sure they kept it.You knew them when they were 80 years old, I want to know what they did when they were 20+
Lest it sounds like I am mezalzel in the Montrealer Otvocker, totally not true.They were and are very respected individuals.We probably disagree on quite a few things, but I have a lot of respect even for Rav Hendel z"l, who despite being a heiseh meshichist was an ehrliche good person.
I showed you a picture at +20 plus. Get a life.
"It's no secret that when Twersky of Rachmastrivka became an associate his grandfather blew a gasket and "marched in" so to speak to "headquarters" eliciting a promise that the grandson won't start dressing "modern".
its not a secret because it never happened
whats your problem with changing levush? if the shulchan oruch has no problem and chassidus chabad has no problem, so whats all the hollering all about? Reb Moshe writes in a teshuva that its all irrelevant in the USA. Even the Satmar rov writes in a argument that Leshoinom, was for before Matan Torah the Rebbe's shita wasn't that levush will save America.
In my younger years in BP I learned in one Beis Hamedrash with a big Masmid a old Poilish Jew from a Gerer household, he was still slightly affiliated with Ger of today. He learned before the war in a Navardok offshoot in Poland. When he went to Navardok he and many Gerer Friends changed to short jackets. Their were many Chasidim that consulted the Gerer Rebbe on the short beged, he answered short and sweet "that with a short jacket you see better the Tzitzes".
"but I have a lot of respect even for Rav Hendel z"l, who despite being a heiseh meshichist was an ehrliche good person."
you really gained alot of respect in my eyes for respecting Rav Hendel, and I envy Hirshel for having such a respectful person writing on his blog
A few quick comments. Firstly, as a descendent of a prominent Slutker family (my grand father actually was the melamad for Rav Boruch Ber and his siblings) I have to say I find this story incredible and unbelievable. Slutsk was one of the four cities making up the acronym “Karpas”, four staunchly Misnagdic cities which had no Chassidim what so ever. In the Pinkas Slutsk memorial book, one of the writers writes that until World War One brought Polish refuges to Slutsk, they had never even SEEN a chosid in their lifes. (see a cute story there about how one room in the schul hof was given over to Chassidim. One day they called on of the regular residents in for a ‘tenteh’. After he entered some one ran outside to call in a second ‘tenteh’. When he asked for an explanation he was told “it takes two of you Kalter Litvakes to make up for one chossid”).
So the chances of RBB stemming from Chassidim are next to zero. His father also learnt in Volozin at a time when Chassidim did not do so. And once fired a melamid because he made a disparaging remark about the GRA (in the Artscroll RBB book. Not the best source).
Is it possible that a family of Litvakes decided to name their child after two chasidissh luminaries? Unlikely. Firstly, out of sight out of mind. Even if they were aware of the existence of these Rebbes, it is highly unlikely that they would have known the Yartietz etc. And just who said over the story. At the time RBB was born he was an ordinary baby. Who remembered? Not his family (I also check with some grandchildren). Is it possible that RBB told it over to some karliner (where did he meet him) and not his family? Possible but unlikely. If there is any kernel of truth, it is that some Karliner decided that that is the reason it worked out that such a great tzadik had this name.
i want to know what Issac Balbin has to say on the topic?
What were the other 3 cities in Karpas? This sounds very interesting !
My mother also came from a town near Vilna where she never met a Chasid until after WW2 in the DP camps in Germany.
There is a well known tamid chacham and academic who is very religously devout but comes from a family devoid of a Chaabd connection whi is named for one of the rebbes because he was born on a yuma depagra connected to that rebbe.
Solomon Schechter of JTS was called SZ but his father was not a Chabad chasid rather they were mi Geza Chabad , by the time Schechter was born there were no lnger any Chabad chasssidim native to Bessarabia or Moldavia , just the shuls were still there.(Of course some moved there from White Russia like rav Zirleson and Rav Avrohom Schneersohn.
what happened to families of Chabad chasidim in Yaas as reb Moshe Yitzchok? I remember that on the Ravs siddur there is a haskoma of a Rav of Faltichan? who was he ?
I had heard the story of RBB being named after the Rebbes awhile back, from a friend, an ainekel living in Boro Park ( he named his own son after him ).
I went back and verified it with him again, and he said that is the kabolah in his family.
Not to sure about all the theories espoused here, this fellow is as close to the source as one can get.
it could be that slutzk was Chasidim Rien as Twistleton is writing, but maybe his father married a Slutzk girl but he was outsider from a slight chasidic family?
Than you for adding to my argument in a concise and convincing way.
This post is a "poster boy" for the paranoia fed in Lubavitch circles.
As Twisty said the chances of the story being true are quite slim.For me most damning is the source quoting "heard from Karliner Chasidim" and not from family.So, could it be true?Sure!But Hirshel already "accuses" the author of "hiding the fact" and "crimes against humanity"!
I also find his circular logic funny:Since the authorS knew everything about R'BB, they "must've" known when he was born and who he was named after, therefore there must be a cover up!
Yold leyben! Maybe it's punkt farkert?Maybe because they know all about R'BB they also KNOW this story is another maaseh mit a boydem??
This post was dumb and very kool-aided paranoia.Sorry.
read the comment from today at 12:30pm
BoroPk: you still have as of yet to explain your own lies and circular logic re:the nine shluchim. If you make no attempt to explain your lies about them- why should we take anything else you say seriously?
I read that someone claims it's a kabolo in the family.However you DID NOT KNOW THAT WHEN YOU POSTED!
What bothers me is not whether R'BB was named after the Mezritcher, it's your paranoia .It's a paranoia given over in farbrengens over mashkeh.I"ve attended many farbrengens and there is a common thread of allowing terrible hate and accusations to fly.
The machloikes between Chasidim and Misnagdim is over.In fact it has been over for more than 200 years.The only place it is regularly stoked up is in Lubavitch.
To that agenda I loudly say:Booz,booz, shame on you!
Mr. truth detector (aka BoroPk)
the eynikel may have said it this week as well, I don't remember, but now that we hear that it's a family kabboloh as well, can we believe it, please?
this was a nice conversation, respectful and all. The tidbit was mentioned, and RBB spoken about with the greatest respect. no kool aid and no paranoia. I'm sorry you've had such negative farbrengen experiences. I feel fr you, but I can tell that those experiences seem to be clouding your (maybe otherwise sound) judgment.
hershel i think you should post the videos of pinny lipschutz last night speaking in lakewood about sholom rubashkin. they can be found on www.lakewood246.com or youtube
Please you showed me a picture of Gerlitsky in a chasidishe coat and I admitted that he went with one.Though I"m not sure at what stage.
About the others I don't know.
I've known a few talmidei Shanghai and none of them went with Chasidishe levush.
Btw, if you really wanted you could bring up pictures from bochurim in Otvock and you"ll see that they dressed like the rest of Chasidei Poylen with peyos and reklach.
"What were the other 3 cities in Karpas? This sounds very interesting !"
I dont remember all three, it was in the Pinkas Slutsk avalible online at Yizkor books. org. The Chaf was Kossoav, the Chazon Ishes home town. I think he Resh was the town where Rav Alexander Moshe Lapidus was rov, Ressin, and the P was Ponavitch or something similar, but not 100% sure
"it could be that slutzk was Chasidim Rien as Twistleton is writing, but maybe his father married a Slutzk girl but he was outsider from a slight chasidic family?"
Rav Schmuel Lebowits decended for a longtime local Slutsker family. He learnt in Volozhin at at time when there were NO Chassiddim there.
"I had heard the story of RBB being named after the Rebbes awhile back, from a friend, an ainekel living in Boro Park ( he named his own son after him ).
I went back and verified it with him again, and he said that is the kabolah in his family."
I can tell you this much, the Krupina, Ungaricher and Grozovsky familys never heard of this so called "Kabola"
Please get what we want of you guys,please!
I don't think you get it:Believe me, that if you went through the 5 thousand yingerleit in BMG there would be a handful who would have "any problem" after who R'BB was named.Maybe folks would argue about the slim likelihood, but be'etsem it's totally not an issue.Then you start making it in to a "crime of omission", you start making it into an agenda, without knowing if what you are saying is true.
Now why would I care?
Because if Lubavitch are able to put forth their "paranoia" and "everyone hates us" theories they can and will twist legitimate criticism into "hate".An example is the very powerful Meshichis movement that Chabad can't or won't rid themselves of partially because "the haters" are just using it as an "excuse"
I have to echo what BP wrote at 2:04. I am a pretty big snag. And I totally don’t believe the story. But I don’t have a big problem with it if it were true. And 95% of BMG wouldn’t have a problem either if the story were true. I think your assumption that there is some kind of ‘cover-up’ going on is slightly paranoid or over suspicious.
BoroPk is noch einer mit "ah glezenim tochus".An exercise in futility.
Did HT attend the Monsey prayer rally in Ohr Someach for Rubashkin?
If the Chasidim/Misnagdim ended 200 yrs ago,then why are u bothering to hatemonger on this blog the last few days with so much hate . Would u bother to fume so much hate on the brooklyn dodgers? or would Eliach of Benai Berak dedicate so many pages on the machloka of the Avad Hoachron? The hate crowd is well and kickibng, and he claims in his Book Hagoaan that Moron was his Moreh Derech.You are a real ignorant ferd jumping on everyones info and smearing, now u are jumping on Twistles bit of info.Whenever a decent discussion is opened the boy isn"t here.It seems that your esteem can only be picked by rehashing your drek by every farce in a nu version.
Why you starting up with me??
You at least I know, are supposed to be "meyushev beda'atcho" as someone who has been around the FR as a young lad and not a young rotzer from Oholei Torah.
What don't you agree with?
All I said was that the pretext of this post that there is a "conspiracy" to cover up who R'Boruch Ber was named after is delusional.
Vus shrinpgstee arayn vee a katz in zauer milech?
You are beneath contempt and have a filthy mouth.
Your mother should be washing your mouth out with soap before she sends you to chaider
impressed from your intelligent reply as all your answers
I believe that your Karpas plate will have to spill a little, A acquaintance of mine has a memoir book of a former Slutzker yeshiva boy by Reb Isser Zalman that describes his Shabos Seuda by a fiery Chabad Chosid, and he was davening with him in a Chabad Shtibel one of the 2 Chasidic shtiblech which the 2nd one was a Kobriner Shtibel It could be it was a blemish on the purity of the town so it is isn't mentioned anyplace else
I assume that you wander into the enclosed Bechatzrois Chasidim site, The RBB name issue was discussed their for months. It was laid to rest by the Lakewood einikel that it is a myth, can you please check it for us since it is a closed site and provide us with the proof, is it too much to ask?
what does that mean exactly? is it Yeshivesh shprach? or Willi shprach?
was yidel rosenberg chabad or affiliated with chabad? weel, his enikel, the late canadian writer mordecai richler, himself from the chabad richler family as well, writes in "son of a smaller hero" about his zeide, (yidel rosenberg) passing away and seeing the besht, the maggid and the alter rebbe standing at his bedside as his soul left his body.
Yidel Rosenberg had no affiliation to chabad, in his Sefer the only serious work that wasnt a forgery, the Zohar translational to Loshen Hakodesh, he has no Chabad mention
“I believe that your Karpas plate will have to spill a little, A acquaintance of mine has a memoir book of a former Slutzker yeshiva boy by Reb Isser Zalman that describes his Shabos Seuda by a fiery Chabad Chosid, and he was davening with him in a Chabad Shtibel one of the 2 Chasidic shtiblech which the 2nd one was a Kobriner Shtibel It could be it was a blemish on the purity of the town so it is isn't mentioned anyplace else”
I am unimpressed with what an anonymous unpublished memoir claims, as opposed to the recollections of my grand mother and here siblings, all of whom grew up in Slutsk, where their father, grandfather, and great grandfather were prominent Rabonim. I will note that the Pinkas Slutsk (written by and for Slutskers) backs up my family version, not this memoirs version.
From here http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/slutsk/slu336.html#Page349
Slutsk remained one of four known towns where Hasidism did not want to put down one foot. The other three towns were Kosove, Razsinaye, Fruzseni. The townspeople did not wish to live to hear the first morning prayer according to Nusah Sefard. Many generations passed and the Nusah Sefard was not heard in Slutsk.
In the beginning of the twentieth century there were a small group of Hasidim in Slutsk and their leader was R'Pincus Fineyeh Kantaravitsh. They did not have a place to gather for prayer. After the residents of Slutsk had built the Mishneoat synagogue, they gave the small house where they used to pray to the Hasidim.
The Hasidim were very pleased and included their enemies in their prayers for a yarsite (prayer for the dead), L'shem Tikon, a prayer said at midnight. Then they would have a shot of whiskey. The Hasidisher house was always full on the night of the festival of Shmini Eseret. They always carried the Torahs in procession on that night instead, of on the festival of Simchat Torah, as the Traditionalists did. Afterwards they celebrated this great moment with liquor, feeling it was quite appropriate.
And it was told that every time someone passed the house, day or night, the Hasidim pleaded with them to come inside because they needed to complete the minyon.
Regarding this request people wondered why the Hasidim waited for another person to complete the required number. One of them explained: It took a few Traditionalists to take the place of a tenth man who was a Hasid.
Slutsk was and remained a clean traditional Lithuanian town. Slutsker Jews remained faithful to the school of thought of the Vilne Gaon, a Traditionalist. They were strongly against Hasidism, which had spread widely in the Ukraine and Poland in the 1800s. They often joked : When there was a minyon of Hasidim in Slutsk and a rabbi, then the Messiah will come. That is the way it was and remained until the Soviet Messiah and the Nazi destruction.
“Very soon Jewish refugees, as well, began appearing, running from the Polish towns around the German border. These refugees, Polish Jews with long beards and peyess (religiously mandated sidelocks), long kaftans, and deep Polish accents, brought out a sense of wonder in us. The Jewish Assistance Committee (E. K. P.) immediately took them under its care”
The memoirs are written by a non chosid a former talmid of reb Isser Zalmem and he write about a cCabad shtibel and a Kobriner shtibel. Why should that guy lie ?he wasn"t frum when he wrote his memoir. I would never argue with you based on some rumor, but it is printed by a total unbiased person. It seems that I shattered the core of your belief sysem
“Why should that guy lie? He wasn’t frum when he wrote his memoir. I would never argue with you based on some rumor, but it is printed by a total unbiased person. It seems that I shattered the core of your belief system”
And maybe he is confused/mixed up. My family was there. Not as temporary students, but long term residents. Obviously you don’t know me or my family. But the Slutker memorial book, written by Slutskers for Slutskers in the 1950’s backs me up numerous times in assorted articles by numerous different authors. I personally think the writer in question is mixing up Kletsk with Slutsk. In other words, he learnt in Slutsk, and then stayed with the Yeshiva when is moved to Kletsk. Where there was a small Chassidish presence. What is the name of the memoir, and where can I see it?
And when was this memiore written? Right after the fact, or 70 years later, when memorys are fuzzy?
I will try and remember and look it up.
I will check when exactly?
Btw,how many Jewish families lived in Slutzk?
In the 1897 census for Slutsk indicated that there were 14, 349 inhabitants of Slutsk, of whom 10,264 were Jewish. Thats not familys, but people. So figure 1,000-1,5000 families
I believe that charidiem had then smaller families then today
" I believe that charidiem had then smaller families then today"
Certianly True. But a few years later there were 1,000 Jewish men able to vote in the 1907 Duma elections. Since the qualifications were to be a male head of household, it dosent seem that there were to many more families that that.
R' Boruch Ber had an eidem named Turetz. His einikel r' Mordche Turetz is a feierdige Breslaver, mamesh a tzadik.
"The memoirs are written by a non chosid a former talmid of reb Isser Zalmem and he write about a cCabad shtibel and a Kobriner shtibel. Why should that guy lie ?he wasn"t frum when he wrote his memoir. I would never argue with you based on some rumor, but it is printed by a total unbiased person. It seems that I shattered the core of your belief sysem"
The last part where you claim to have "shattered the core of your belief sysem" referring to Twistelton is so delusional that I have to stop you right there!.
Chaver, you don't realize that where Twistelton comes from the "core" belief is not "babbeh maysehs" and you can be sure that if he is wrong about a chasidishe shtiebel in Slutsk it won't shatter anything.Only in Chabad is the 'Snag bogey man a "core" belief, where thousands of kids are indoctrinated to hate this straw man "Snag" that doesn't exist as a way of inculcating a fierce "getryshaft" to the group and it's leader.This is what is referred to as "KOOL-AID" as in Jonestown,Guyana.In other places the "core" beliefs are about the Creator of the World.
can I please have a discussion with a normal person without a ferd interfering? I Beg you don"t embarrass yourself
Spoke today with an eynekel. Heard about the rumors (from chasidim) doesn't know, and more importantly, doesn't care if it's true.
Spoke with RBB Grozovsky of Lakewood (Menahel of Kamenietz Cheder). He asked his uncle, R Chaim Shlomo Grozovsky, who denied the story. Added that RBB’S father was a Misnagid, who once fired a Melamed for speaking disparagingly about the GRA.
Your shtetele Slutzk is very proud being Chasidim Rien, but in your history their was a era when the town fell under the spell of some charlatan Magid that brought the town to Teshuva for more then a year etc... being the proud rational town of the Gra school it is a blemish on the history of your shetetel that was saved from the trap of the Tzadikei emes as the Alte Rebbe,Tzemach Tzedek, Yesod Avoda.But was entrapped by a con artist.
"Your shtetele Slutzk is very proud being Chasidim Rien, but in your history their was a era when the town fell under the spell of some charlatan Magid that brought the town to Teshuva for more then a year etc... being the proud rational town of the Gra school it is a blemish on the history of your shetetel that was saved from the trap of the Tzadikei emes as the Alte Rebbe,Tzemach Tzedek, Yesod Avoda.But was entrapped by a con artist."
?? Detailes/source please
it is famous in the Misnagdic world. Reb Chaim Liberman in Ohel Rochel has alot of details, are your parents still around? maybe they know? how old were they when they were deported?
I have to apologize from all the Slutzker landsliet, the story that I mentioned above, happened in Minsk not in Slutzk just the Bies Din was involved
"I have to apologize from all the Slutzker landsliet, the story that I mentioned above, happened in Minsk not in Slutzk just the Bies Din was involved"
I was wondering. Please let me know where I can read about it. My Grandmother who passed away a few years ago was the last Slutsker in the family actualy born and raised in Slutsk.
Dear, Seen it all, still (in)sane,
So for the sake of historical truth the "Gedolei HaDor", Roshei Yeshivah of Yeshivas Ner Yisroel and Torah Vad'as respectively were
R' Yakov Yitzchok Ruderman and R' Yakov Kamenetzky
...From a Lubavitcher family's
"Dear, Seen it all, still (in)sane,
So for the sake of historical truth the "Gedolei HaDor", Roshei Yeshivah of Yeshivas Ner Yisroel and Torah Vad'as respectively were
R' Yakov Yitzchok Ruderman and R' Yakov Kamenetzky
...From a Lubavitcher family's"
True as far as Rav Ruderman. His cousian Rav Yaackovs mothers family was chabad inclined, but that was viewed negitivly by his fathers family (as per making of a Godol)
The information were very helpful for me, I've bookmarked this post, Please share more information about this
Just found another data point. Apparently RBBL was chasidish as an adult working rov. Here's a memoir of Hlusk (Glussk) from JewishGen.org which mentions the two town rabbis of Hlusk, in the Bobruisk region (which had a Chabad branch, with its own Schneerson rebbes, no?), one of which was R' Boruch Ber, the Hassidic rabbi. When I read that line, I remembered this post.
Here, too, is a letter from R' Nathan Kamenetzky, author of "Making of a Godol", who mentions that R' Boruch Ber Leibowitz was rav in Hlusk for a while. Funny how most online biographers leave that out, only emphasizing his time in Volozhin and as Rosh Yeshiva in Slabodka.
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