Tuesday, December 31, 2013
does Rabbi Steinsaltz speak for us?
when he laments the state of the Rabbinate today
I get different reactions from otherwise like-minded, intelligent, frum people. One person asked me "when will he take his yarmulke off already?, this shande." He's an "alter apikores." Another guy applauds RAS's bravery and tells me that he (RAS) writes what we think. Then of course the OTDers stand up and cheer, but that's just יניקת החיצונים in my humble opinion. They could care less what Rabbis do now, they're out to have a good time and no pipe-smoking Rabbi with an old blue shirt and scraggly beard will tell them otherwise, no matter how brilliant he is. But closer examination of his words tells us that all he's saying is that he wants Rabbonim to care more for their respective flocks. This isn't a מאי אהני לן רבנן rant after all. No call to allow this one and that one to be מותר לבא בקהל or to marry. No call to make broad changes to Halacha just to conform with the times. It's simply a call for a little more compassion. A helping hand. A shoulder to cry on, if you will. Don't shoot the messenger.
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why don't the OTD crowsd cling to Reb Adin as ther Rebbe and moral guide, there is noting in there little brain that Reb Adin can not answer...
Hirshel, bear in mind the whole picture of who and what steinsaltz is. He is the נפש הבהמית that viewed himself worthy of denigrating and passing judgement on the שבטי י-ה! He is the one who created and declare himself the head of a wanna be סנהדרין! He is the one who would love to be the ultimate rabbinic authority in order that his complaints would be directed at him and he would be the one to lead and guide the masses. Yet besides for an occasional use by someone needing him for pr, as a whole, klal yisroel has no use for him. He is scorned and ignored. Yet he desperately needs and wants attention and validation.
A great rov told me that he is the prime example of a bt too proud to be a real talmid and therefore cannot be straightened out of his krumkeiten. A real waste of a great head.
Yeh. Steinsaltz is a kal, that's why they like him in Chabad
whereas Reb Shmuel Auerbach.... now that's a real Yerei Elokim!
who said RSA is machsiv him?
Did you read the letters (printed in mishpachah mag) where he sent Bill Clinton letters during the scandal, making compramises to people in Tanach (unders similar circumstances)?
they like him because he's a Lubavitcher chossid married to a very choshu've family. Yet, having said that, he's not what you'd call your average Chabadnik, in any sense of the word.
I didn't say RSA is machshiv him.
Not a Harry
"He is the נפש הבהמית that viewed himself worthy of denigrating and passing judgement on the שבטי י-ה!"
What exactly dont you like about his writing, that was written for a secular crowd.
You expected he should explain for the secular crowd, all the stories in Brieshis, on the path of the Peroshas derochim? if Yosef had a din ben noach? or a a Yisroel? if a Mefarcheses has a din eiver min Hachai....
He did noting wrong in none of his books that were catering to his crowd. there are worse Emuna problems in the works of Reb Shamshon Refuel Hirsh..
the magidim in the shtetel also made one year yossef bad, the other year the shivtai Ku..
@krumer Leiter, you are as him, as Krum as a bagel. Writings directed at the fraye have to be much more carefully written than shooting from the hip. It makes it worse not better that the things he wrote were in the public / secular sphere.
Not a Harry
" klal yisroel has no use for him. He is scorned and ignored"
To say that he is Invalid, Ignored, is not Krum, Its a lie on a Milse deavidai Liglue..
Until Sherman came along with his much better work and named it Artscroll, Stiensaltz was selling alot of his gemorahs, it was used by the MO and Mizrachi types, and by alot charidem that were not irked by a cool Dekel and change of the holy TZURAS HDAF, things were great.
All of a sudden some Doags Vachitofels found Kefira in his works that were geared for university students which in their life Bible Criticism is the fact, It did not help much that he was a chabadnik, and the Maran of all Marans was the first to take him to the gallows to hang him.
Rumors were circulating that some competition are on the way with a new product, and they are the source for this slander that happened out of the blue.
Eventually it became a fact...
Reb Adin is very relevant to a big crowd, proof for that is, that his shas is being beautifully and expansive printed thru Koran, volume after volume, with no massive Shnor operation..
so it has to sell very good...its a multi million dollar operation...
I just want you should update your Ruv with accurate info...
Not a Harry
"Writings directed at the fraye have to be much more carefully written than shooting from the hip."
I assume you know Frie people that became bigger apikorsim after reading Stiensaltz.
But the Krumer bagel knows too many BT that were influenced thru Stiensaltz work and are Yeriem Ushlimim
Not of a Harry
"A great rov told me that he is the prime example of a bt too proud to be a real talmid and therefore cannot be straightened out of his krumkeiten. A real waste of a great head."
To knock BT's is a slander on all that is said in Rambam hilchas teshuva, A BT is rthe aame mechutan to say a Daas Torah as Rabonim, shtienman, Vachtfogel, Auerbach and Kalmoniovitz. His rights are limited to the extent, that he can not close down a yeshiva (May it be Chaderea or Itri) for daring to learn Artscroll(Reading Hapeles)instead of learning Stienzalts (Reading Yated).
Rav Shach condemned him well before artscroll thought of getting involved in a shas.
Rav Elyashiv specifically was mattir artscroll because of steinzaltz. Read the haskoma.
To echo NotaHarry 4:05 --
See here, seif alef:
Not a Harry
" Yet he desperately needs and wants attention and validation. "
Evryone that is speaking his mind, is aattention seeker..
His article has no valid points? I see too many people that feel that way but don't have the talent to express it in a such a rich articulate fashion?
I thank hashem that our era has still some talent.
Not a Harry
"Rav Shach condemned him well before artscroll thought of getting involved in a shas."
how much earlier????
Not a Harry
"Rav Elyashiv specifically was mattir artscroll because of steinzaltz. Read the haskoma. "
so the Hashgocha Elyona send Stiensaltz,and then put in some sprinkles of Kefira in his works, then got some Kefira hunters to find them, then got the Letter of Maran,the nicest guy, who never killed a fly, all in order to get the haskoma of Rav Elyashev.Then came along Reb Nussen Yossef Miezels that hates Elyashev and the color blue, so we ended up with mesivta Perlmuter edition,
Hodi Lashem Ki tov
Who is "us", modern orthodox, chareidim, lubavitchers or none of the above?
A bt with out a rebbe, exclusive daas atzmo has no place criticizing rabonei and mahigei hador, shtibel rebbes included.
נהידריה קטנטנה said...
Most Rebbes are not even Bt's they are still the first half of the BT. Reb Adin is at least a BT
to address the point without addressing adin: the problem with "Rabbis" today (at least in America) is that only the weaker students in yeshivas learn halacha l'ma'asah. and those that learn halacha with a goal of becomng Rabbis are the weakest of the weak. the better the yeshiva, the more this klal is true. thus, the weaker yeshivos put out more Rabbis and the better yeshivos ony allow their worst learners to become pulpit Rabbis.
this is even more true in chabad where young guys with very little Torah knowledge go on shlichus and become Rabbis of entire communities when all they have is personality and ambition but almost no learning or even people skills.
that's just the matzav today.
Re his Gemara edition and the Rebbe's involvement; quite interesting:
Everything that Rav Shach did was לשם שמים. To accuse him of condemning steinzaltz to favor artscroll which would soon be released is preposterous. Both for the chutzpah and for the simple fact that he apposed artscroll producing an English shas as well.
Rav michel yehuda lefkowitz, Rav chaim kanievsky, Rav Elyashiv, Rav chaim kreisworth, Rav chaim pinchos sheinberg and Rav Shach unanimously Condemned steinzaltz's books for containing heresy. All of his books, not just the shas. Not the man as a heretic but his books for containing.
Not a Harry
Did your list of signators also sign a Kol Koreh on their buddy Reb Gedalia Nadel, the BT biggest Talmid of the chazon Ish, who gave lectures of Kefira in his house next door to this Gedolim?
Or its only chabad blood that is cheap? But not blood that comes in a shiur Chazon Ish becher?
stop with your hate mongering, the great Rav Shach is starting to have a tikun, thru his 2 talmidim trying to bring order in the Sedom that he established.
stop! stop the hate,
"this is even more true in chabad where young guys with very little Torah knowledge go on shlichus and become Rabbis of entire communities when all they have is personality and ambition but almost no learning or even people skills."
I am wildly impressed by you duby. You have obviously tested the Torah knowledge and analyzed the people skills of thousands of shluchim to make such a blanket comment.
It must have taken you quite some time to do such an analysis. Is someone paying you for that time, or are you simply a leidigeir with too much time on your hands. If it's the latter (which I presume, unless you're an all out shakran, and baal lashon hara/motzi shem ra - I'll be dan l'kaf zchus) my kitchen floor needs a good mopping. Please come over and ti a toive - mop my floors.
Did you finish breching yet from your new years party? Eh, double. Why is your floor such a mess?
talmud of chadera,
firstly i generally don't pay a single iota of respect to your posts since they are all agenda driven.lubavitch will always be right whatever the case in your view, so there is no ability to "discuss" with someone who has such negios and is not even able to admit that he has negios.
What i do want to ask u about is this: "Reb Gedalia Nadel, the BT biggest Talmid of the chazon Ish,"
firstly what do u mean by "BT",? bal teshuva? (he was not), but anyway how do you decide who was the biggest talmid of the "chazon ish"?>do u know anything about the chazon ish?do you decide because it's kedai for you?
when was the last time, if ever, u opened a "chazon ish"?
Keep to reading rambam yeimy like tehillim
doobie (aka chadera talmid, aka a many other names)
Duvy actually knows what he is talking about.Why? because to become a ruv that answers real halachik questions, not always found in kitzer shulchen oruch, takes more than a year in rabbi hellers kollel.thats why,chuchem from ma nishtano, yukel from rosh choidesh
doobie, why are you so mad? i think i made a pretty pareve statement which is quite obvious. i didn't say i know thazt every shliach is not a big talmid chochom. but i know several dozen and none are even close to being great halachic scholars. i didn't say they are bad guys. btw, i also said that most non-chabad "rabbis" are weak in learning. both in chabad and in the yeshiva world the better guys at learning do not become "rabbis" or "shluchim".
also, i wok for a living full-time so i can't come to your house. sorry.
shor yoshuv (aka duvy/dave)
typical twisted response. changing the argument when you're rebutted. duvy/u mentioned nothing about paskening in the original comment. so when you're refuted about "very little Torah knowledge" u change gears to "paskening".
to your attack on learning Rambam, how many Lubavitchers did you test on their understanding? more motzi shem ra from the haters...
Lubavitchers don't read Rambam any more than litvishe b''b read daf yomi.
and ur argument about paskening is a red herring: do the aish and ohr sameach rabbis pasken shaalos? their job is not to pasken. when they have a shaila they call up their rov.
u'r a real rachmonus
I would like to extend my offer to you to join duvy/dave (i.e., yourself, as you are obviously schizo with so many names - and no, I am not Talmud of Chadera, but nice try)in mopping my floors.
are they less positioned for there Jobs then Reb Malkiel in Lakewood or Reb Liezer Yudel in Mir or Reb Zalmen Lieb Titelbaum in Satmar.
this above listed people are leading grandiose yeshivas, moisdos kehilas etc...
you are talking Chasidishe yungeliet with a chasidic bren for a Jewish soul. They all know to ask a Shalla when they have to...Whom Does Malkiel ask????
doobie (aka chadera talmid, aka a many other names)
Duvy actually knows what he is talking about.Why? because to become a ruv that answers real halachik questions, not always found in kitzer shulchen oruch, takes more than a year in rabbi hellers kollel.thats why,chuchem from ma nishtano, yukel from rosh choidesh""
But to be the RAshkebehagh, of Mir, Lakewood, , Satmar belz Viznitz you have to come from a certain Oitzer Neshomas that is only stored for certain families that they can lead
" "Reb Gedalia Nadel, the BT biggest Talmid of the chazon Ish,"
firstly what do u mean by "BT",? bal teshuva? (he was not),"
it was a typo, Reb Gedalye was no BT, he was still a Kofer when he died, you stay corrrected
" i work for a living full-time "
i'm not sure the fellow you are responding to knows what "work" is.
"firstly i generally don't pay a single iota of respect to your posts since they are all agenda driven"
So what made you read and answer?
"when was the last time, if ever, u opened a "chazon ish"?"
If I will answer you today in the morning, and I will tell you which piece of chazon Ish, will I gain respect in your eyes?
i see you won't touch the "call of the shofar" debacle.
is it because lubavitch is coming out looking silly.realy silly.
Oh, but they reinstated the ahalei teireh teachers....
welcome to heshys pravdablog
u did not post the previous post.
how come im not surprised??
every lubav web site disccuses it, just u can't?
erger vi a geboirener
"But to be the RAshkebehagh, of Mir, Lakewood, , Satmar belz Viznitz you have to come from a certain Oitzer Neshomas that is only stored for certain families that they can lead"
there is nobody in any of these places that you mention became a moireh horoh without many, many years of study.
Go read your rambam yeimy already
"'m not sure the fellow you are responding to knows what "work" is."
"If I will answer you today in the morning, and I will tell you which piece of chazon Ish, will I gain respect in your eyes"
i inherently disrespect a person with negios especially the type that does admit negios.you and your ilk belong to the school of "kif nin taamim letaher ".
as an aside i also think you know enough to be a real am hooretz.people who know nothing are prepared to listen and discuss, that is not the am hooretz despised by chazal
"but anyway how do you decide who was the biggest talmid of the "chazon ish"?"
So Reb gedalye was the smallest, tiniest, miniscule Talmid and he gave Shiurim in Benai Berak, that were divrie kefira all ideas are considered Kefira.
Where were the Kol Koreh,professionals?
no issue such as the call of the shofar has ever gotten such heated discussion on the chabad news sites ever before.
proof again the the tzig is a pravda, kool aid apologist.
he"ll discuss anything taking place. BY OTHERS GROUPS!!!
(Heshy that why i cant respect you)
I'm paid both from COTS and Chabad, Inc. not to speak about it. I'm so rich from all the hush money I wallpaper my massive mansion with 100 dollar bills.
"the problem with "Rabbis" today is that only the weaker students in yeshivas learn halacha l'ma'asah. and those that learn halacha with a goal of becomng Rabbis are the weakest of the weak. the better the yeshiva, the more this klal is true."
duvy, you really outdid yourself on this one. priceless!
It is known that the chassidishe yiddin of old, when they would have a shaila and they didn't have a chassidishe rov to ask, they would ask the litvishe rov and...then do exactly the opposite. i never understood it, until now. after your self-introspective revelation, hakol bu al mechono.
i also read the haskama from your moran to tevilas keilim in which he ("humbly" - although according to your words it is something to be proud about...) writes that he doesn't know halacha.... well, your comment above surely explains it!
If Reb BZ Shemtov was alive, he would have organized a 8th Rebbe, just like he made the 7th Rebbe (with his ksav hiskashrus campaigns: see yemei bereishis).
Unfortunately, his sons don't see the need for a new Rebbe, as that would mean delegating some of their power as head shluchim.
Are you kidding?
If Reb BZ Shemtov was alive, he would stick to what the Rebbe wanted (and said). In 5710 it was the Rebbe as opposed to the Rashag - a nice man but no Rebbe (at least by Chabad standards). In 5774 it was to continue doing the Rebbe's work with the Helem v'hester. (Don't nitpick on my words I am not a tzfati.) The Rebbe clearly spoke about this tkufa (in 5748 and other times)
i see you won't touch the "call of the shofar" debacle.
is it because lubavitch is coming out looking silly.realy silly.
Oh, but they reinstated the ahalei teireh teachers..."
Do you have any idea what you are talking about or are you shooting from the hip like most ppl with "knowledge" on the subject?
I am disgusted by many of the comments here degrading Baalei Teshuva. Why do you hate them so much? How is being BT strike 1 for R' Steinsaltz?
I think its because most of you are a bunch of fakers and are all chitzonim. You are all secretly apikorsim and you know it, so you resent Balei Teshuva entering your kehillos with actual hislahavus and emuna pshuta. Why do they threaten you so much?
because you know youre all a bunch of fakers who walk the walk but your yiddishkeit only amounts to chulent and kugel by shabbos lunch, and a good fart by mincha.
Had he known what a disaster chabad would turn in to without a rebbe, the rebbe would have coronated a heir publicly while at the peak of his kochos. I am a snag, but I know he wasn't stupid.
not a harry
"Had he known what a disaster chabad would turn in to without a rebbe, the rebbe would have coronated a heir publicly while at the peak of his kochos. I am a snag, but I know he wasn't stupid."
Where is the disaster exactly?
that some people needed help and they were send for help?
A Chasidus like Belz with a rebbe is totaly based on psychologist and all kind of Meshugaz...Aron Friedman was sitting for years in the Belzer Ravs chamber helping people psychologically
Did a Gerer Ilyu not become Frie with all his kids, because he has a rebbe?
You are not a snag you are idiot
Wow the nivul peh here lately really demonstrates a genuine and mature chasidishe Varimkeit.
The issue with steinzaltz is not that he is a bt, but rather that he is a self taught and self made man. He does not have a rebbe / moreh derech and made very serious mistakes in denigrating the Avos hakdoshim and Chazal.
not a Harry
", but rather that he is a self taught and self made man. He does not have a rebbe / moreh derech"
who made a BT?
is learning by yourself a problem?
"moreh derech and made very serious mistakes in denigrating the Avos hakdoshim and Chazal."
Did he denigrate Chazal? or made them look too human?
is your problem with the word romantic on reb akiva?
where did you detect Nivul Peh? please dont use me for a poster of chasidic varemkiet? go find it by reb Pyinye Korf or by Reb sruel Friedman, not by pashkevilen writers on the triefeh internet
I was just reminded about a line from the fr about Marcus leaman that he's makarev rechokim And merachek krovim
Not a snag,
A)Your style is very, very disgusting.
B)To say that Lubavitch is doing fine without a rebbe means you must be on psychotic drugs
C)Since nobody was discussing the chasidic groups and their rebbes you just maligned to somehow "raise" Lubavitch, you prove again that you have not studied, in any depth Chassidus
D)You are just not a very nice person
"Everything Shach did was Lesheim Shamayim"
What a sad joke...
long after Rabbi Schach A'H of Bnei Brak is forgotten , the contribution of Rabbi Steinsaltz will shine brightly.
The ignorant sanctimonious commentS from that "Rav" about Rabbi Steinsaltz being a Baal Teshuva are pathetic ,maybe one day that lacklustre "Rav" may do teshuva.
The issue was not his background. The issue was and still is, is his lack of deference to divrei chazal, and the avos hakdoshim.
Him being a bt is irrelevant and Rav Shach never made mention of it.
Focus on the issue.
אם ראשונים כמלאכים, אנו כבני אדם. אם ראשונים כבני אדם, אנו כחמורים, ולא כחמורורו של ר' פנחס בן יאיר.
דו ביסט אני מענטש אז דו פארשטייסט אז די פריערדיקע זענען גיווען מלאכים. און אויב דו מיינסט אז זיי זענען גיווען סתם מענטשען ביסט דו א חמור.
ותו לא מידי
@pinchas. Ignorance and sanctimonious is what you would see in the mirror. Did you read the full letters letters of Rav Shach? No. Did you ever meet him? No. Did you ever learn anything he wrote? Also not. You have not the foggiest notion of the man who you have denigrated.
For a cretin that considers המשך ע"י to be a favorite books of his, well, I'll leave the rest unsaid, to be kind.
Not a harry
Maybe this gentleman by the name Pinchas that you denigrate for not reading the shallow letters that are only long rants of hate,But I am a sicko and I did read them all and I concluded that it is all hate and hate.
Lets not go further then the new movement in Benie Berak to rid of the shackles of hate that Maran has wrought on us.
His message of hate is by now held dearly by a fringe who invested too much on it, to lose their grip.
I am as befuddled as the next guy by the current state of affairs in bnei brak.
Nobody at this juncture is a ממלא מקום of Rav Shach. There were leaders in place after him who are not leading now.
Lots of water under the bridge since he was nifter.
To put it in perspective. Are the three אתרא דמר's of Kan Tzivo fighting over who will succeed R Dvorkin or R Marlow?
60 years of harbotzas hatorah is something he did that you never heard of.
Maybe bnei brak can take R' Braun from CH, he can fill in rav shach's shoes, hes just as interesting...
Things chazal call הלכה משה משה מסיני r steunzaltz tells us were developed for financial and sociological reasons
In his book on bibical people he says "romantic playthings"
I rember from 25 years ago that he described Reb Akiva as a romantic, it was not meant in Inynie Even Hoezer.. he meant the concept of indulging in fanciful stories or daydreams. As the famous story with the fox that came out of the Har habayis and many others, that Reb akive saw the wishful future. If you dont comprehend his writings dont read it. You can live all your life learning Ayin yakov with the biur of the Marsho and Eitz yosef. Stienzalts never intended to have you in his crowd, you always see some .... in every thing.
"Things chazal call הלכה משה משה מסיני r steunzaltz tells us were developed for financial and sociological reasons"
can you quote a live quote?
Not a Harry
"Nobody at this juncture is a ממלא מקום of Rav Shach."
The crowd that misses his hanhoga is shrinking.You are in the minority.
I too truly miss Rav Shach 's leadership.
He was a true מנהיג and אוהב ישראל.
R steinzaltz denying הלכה משה מסיני was qouted in the jewish observer article many years ago... עיין שם
Romantic playthings was certialnly eben ezra, though not sexual.
I once went to see him at היכל מנחם on 19 kislev... He was telling a story of snags who put a gartel on a donkey... He was laughing so hard he couldn't continue... He turned the whole Place off.
"R steinzaltz denying הלכה משה מסיני was qouted in the jewish observer article many years ago... עיין שם"
I remember it, and it was taking out of context
"I once went to see him at היכל מנחם on 19 kislev... He was telling a story of snags who put a gartel on a donkey... He was laughing so hard he couldn't continue... He turned the whole Place off."
I am not a Stienzalts apologist neither his follower, and it could be that he once made a joke that was off, it happens by the best orators, I believe that not every derosha of Reb Mier Shapiro,Reb Y M Lau or Reb Efraim Vaksman was always great and to the point.
saying all that, As I heard and listened to many of his lectures and some farbrengens, he is usually very good
Rav aaron feldman wrote a very scathing critisism of RAS in his book eye of the storm... He basicly says he doesn't knOw how to learn בכלל. He make a tremendous amount of mistakes which he shows in detail. The whole book EOTS is brilliant and very recommened... He discusses slifkin, homos, femminism etc...
Rav feldman's book was recomended to me by the great blogger 1 above 7 below who was kind enough to loan me his copy.
Just the venue of his kvetching lends credence to the claim that it's just self serving.
I would love to read Rabbi Feldmans book, how he makes Rabbi Stiensaltz in to a Am Oretz,
is it online for free? I am not ready to shell out 25 bucks for it.
Can you please scan the pages of the Steinsaltz critic to the blooger owner the great Tzig
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