Wednesday, August 24, 2005

Where's the line?



When on the subject of Israel vs. Eretz Yisroel there's a very fine line, especially fore those of us in the Chabad community. When the Rebbe spoke of ארץ ישראל השלמה he obviously wasn't referring to Israel as a secular entity, but rather as a place of Hashroas Hashechinah and a place of dwelling of millions of Jews. Similarly, when he would scream about the situation in Israel and the fact that its leaders are giving away their very lifeline, it wouldn't be the State of Israel that the Rebbe would worry about, at least not as a secular state.

Therein lies the dilemma.

It seems to this blogger that the lines are getting very blurred, and this is not good. These days the average Lubavitcher has very little idea what the Rebbe's approach was to the "zionist question" and it shows. Although there are many examples such as shluchim and Chabad houses showing Yom Ha'atzmaut on their calendars, I'd like to stick to the issue at hand, namely the Disengagement/Expulsion.

Many of our brothers and sisters in Eretz Yisroel felt it was their holy duty to go to Gaza and barricade themselves in Shuls and homes. They sang and danced with their brethren, not a problem in and of itself, but the content may have been questionable. I can understand it, but it was totally misguided. Physically fighting the decisions of the government was never in the Rebbe's plans, and there were times that it could've been. When Yamit was expunged in 5742 was there a call to arms from the Rebbe? was there any less displeasure then? of course not. Chabad never participated in public demonstrations just for that reason, not in Israel nor in America when it came to Soviet Jewry.

Besides for the misguided plan of action there is also the problem of crossing the line. Most Lubavitcher fall into the trap of the so-called "kanoyim" who accuse Lubavitch of being "more Zionist than the Zionists". This can be traced to the fact that most Lubavitchers are very active in both Shleimus Ha'aretz and the Israeli electoral process. There's also the fact that they're part of the Israeli educational system and invite politicians to their functions. That being the case, coupled with the fact that most Yeshivahs don't teach Shitas Chabad in these matters makes for a confused and uninformed Chabad populace.

When a Yungerman in my bungalow colony mentioned this fact, namely that Lubavitchers should not have been in Gaza, and that the Rebbe would have disapproved of it, he was almost driven out of the shul, but I believe he was right. The view of the Rebbe was never to make political statements (save for 5748-9) nor to support political parties and that would include fighting cops and soldiers in Gush Katif.

23 comments:

Anonymous said...

Good and concise explanation of the 3 main points necessary: 1. We are not Zionists, 2. Land should not be given back, 3. We don't physically protest.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

You mean me, or the Yeshivos?

Anonymous said...

How can we blame people from going over there to demonstrate if they feel for their brothers and sisters?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Manhattan
nobody's "blaming" anybody, but if you go in the name of Lubavitch you need to follow the Rebbe's directives.

Anonymous said...

IMHO, people are very simple (as a rule). As such, they tend to make their Rebbes one dimensional, and over-simplify their positions...

Case in point:

1. The Rebbe was anti-secular-Zionism - he wouldn't even mention the name of "that song." And in cases when the anthem WAS used, their were ramifications for the shliach (I actually find the Rebbe's "intolerance" on the matter surprising, but that's not for now). However, because the Rebbe was so vocally opposed to giving away land, and he did show respect and friendliness to Zionist officials, people mistakenly have confused Shleimus Haaretz with Zionism (- both Lubavitchers and non-Lubavitchers).

2. The Satmar Rav or R' Amrom Blau were opposed to the State of Israel, but they were surely Ohavei Yisroel - and would not be supporting an Arab terrorist state - many followers of their however, have taken "Kanoyus" to new extremes, and often fall into sinas chinam as a result.

I'm sure others will disagree with me, and I brace myself for the attacks.

Anonymous said...

heshy...good job!
ce....yeah!

Anonymous said...

The tzad hashove between the yellow flg demonstrators and the orange flags is that both have messianic obsessions, Lubavitchers, that the Rebbe is Moshiach, and the Settlers that the state of Israel is Aschalta Di'geula. Hopefully both groups will wake up to reality now.

Anonymous said...

Meile the orange flag, but happeneed that should make Lubavitchers "wake up?"

Anonymous said...

There you Lubavitchers go again, trying to rewrite history.

Anonymous said...

To understand all this one needs two things

1) a good teacher who can explain all this clearly
2) the ability to engage in nuanced thinking.

Most Chabad shluchim are too busy and bogged down in their day to day burdens to stop and teach all this stuff. And the ones who are 'teaching' all this are the loud emotinoally hysterical radical guys.

Can peole be blamed if they have not been given the correct information?

Or can people be blamed if they are not nuanced enough in their thinking to grapple the complexities and greyness of these issues?

Anonymous said...

To understand all this one needs two things

1) a good teacher who can explain all this clearly
2) the ability to engage in nuanced thinking.

Most Chabad shluchim are too busy and bogged down in their day to day burdens to stop and teach all this stuff. And the ones who are 'teaching' all this are the loud emotinoally hysterical radical guys.

Can peole be blamed if they have not been given the correct information?

Or can people be blamed if they are not nuanced enough in their thinking to grapple the complexities and greyness of these issues?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I wasn't referring to Shluchim, they don't need to explain to their Mekurovim exactly what the Chabad shitah is, I was referring to Yeshivos.

AMSHINOVER said...

you'd rather junk these guys from the real ch'bad for being zioists,then for being moshichists?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

is "junk" a verb in this context?

Moshichists are not what I write about.

Anonymous said...

Hirsh
the pic you posted is misleading. The guys holding the yellow flag are not holding the Israeli flag, the guy on the sidewalk is.

Anonymous said...

I believe that part of the problem is that most Lubavitchers cannot relate to the opinions of the rest of Charedi Jewry in America on this matter which is heavily influenced by Satmar. They define קנאות with Satmar and will have no part of it. Undoing this mindset will take quite an effort.

Anonymous said...

avremel, your comment isn't quite understood. Are you supporting the activities of the wild fringe of Lubavitch, or the calm response of the majority of Lubavitch?

Anonymous said...

no, Guravitzer, I do not support the fringe. All I said was that the differences are quite blurred now, and that's sad.

Anonymous said...

something to ponder:

קטעים מעניינים.דברים כהוייתן מחד מחסידי חב"ד, בעניין השקפת כ"ק האדמו"ר מחב"ד זצוק"ל.

כל ילד חב"די זוטר יודע שהרבי הוא בחריפות רבה נגד:

1)ציונות בכל היבטיה והופעותיה.

2) גם מקבל את איסור שלש שבועות ואיסור התגרות ואיסור לעלות בחומה.

3)נגד אתחלתא דגאולה בתוקף.

4)נגד המזרחי וגדוליהם. לא מזכיר הרב קוק בשום אחד מכתביו, והדברים ידועים שהתבטא נגד גישת הרב קוק (דרך אגב הריי"ץ נפגש אתו בלבביות)

5)שירת 'התקווה' וכל גילויי ציונות רשמית מאוסה בעיניו, ואף הוריד נשיאותו מישיבת תומכי תמימים המרכזית בגלל ששרו בדינר שיר זה

6)אינו מכנה ואינו כותב התואר "מדינת ישראל" כי אינו מכיר ביישות הציונות

7)כתב לאחד מנשיאי מדינת ישראל שאינו מכנה אותו כ"נשיא" כי תואר זה שייך רק למלכי ישראל על פי תורה.

8)אינו שולח ציר לכנסת של מדינת ישראל שלא להשתתף בהכרעת של מדינת ישראל שהן נגד התורה, בניגוד לשיטת אגודת ישראל הזרם המרכזי ביהדות החרדית.

וכל הדברים אלו כל כך ידועים ומפורסמים לכל חסיד חב"ד עד שפשוט מגוחך כאן כל המאמץ הנבוב להעתיק ולצטט קטעי דברים שלא בהקשרם כמיטב מסורת זייפני 'דער איד' מדור דור.

האם החי יכחיש את החי? במשך השנים שהיתי אצל הרבי ראיתי ושמעתי שיטתו האנטי ציונות של הרבי פעמים רבות מאד, כמה צווח ככרוכיא נגד הטעות הטרגית של אתחלתא דגאולה? וממילא מדובר בהמשכיות ממש של אדמו"ר הרש"ב וחותנו אדמו"ר הריי"ץ.[עיי"ש המשך ויתר דבריו]

ועיי"ש מה שמביא משל מעניין ויפה בעניין. והנה קטע קצר מהנמשל לשם הדגמה בעלמא:והנמשל מובן:

לדעת רבינו הקדוש מליובאוויטש זיע"א , יש לנו כעת "ממזר" מדינה, שאכן נולדה בחטא גדול של התגרות וכפירה עיי"ש המשך דבריו (שלמען האמת אינה עריבה לאוזן סאטמארית.)

(Source: Bechadrei Charedim)

Anonymous said...

whoa!
sounds like Satmar to me :)

Anonymous said...

I hope Chitas reads the previous post.

Yehoishophot Oliver said...

In response to 6) in the Hebrew post above, the Rebbe didn't refuse to refer to the state because he was against "recognising the zionist entity"; rather, he did so because he objected to the creation of a new term, when the minhag Yisrael was to refer to Eretz Yisroel.

stem cell cure in india said...

They define קנאות with Satmar and will have no part of it. Undoing this mindset will take quite an effort.