Friday, July 31, 2009

......האלבע ארבעט

Let me preface this by wishing you all a speedy recovery from the fast day. I know it can be tough on a man or woman, not eating or taking care of bodily needs and then getting back into it the next day. So let my well-wishes act as a transition helper. I know that all of you have a very hard time on 9 Av, with mourning the Beis HaMikdosh and the subsequent Golus HaShechinah (besides for Lubavitchers, who just sit around laughing, and throw berelach, if you would believe the idiot who commented like that here) and being inspired by the various speeches. So let me wish you all a very inspiring rest of the summer, a Happy Tu B'Av, and pleasant vacationing, wherever it may be. Be it Deal, New Jersey, Monsey, or the Catskills. We all know that vacations today are not what they used to be. BH they are full of inspiring lectures, Tzedokoh functions and shiurim galore, and the only thing that we vacate are the dreaded streets of Brooklyn, the streets of sheer impurity. No expense is too great to escape those nasty streets for the pure and unadulterated air of Woodbourne and Monticello.

Now on the video posted above. I was almost in tears when I first watched the video. Remember that I'm a former Talmid of his Mosdos. The fact that the Spinka Rebbe was subjected to listen to Mr. Brafman's speech and the speeches of the other Tzaddikim is one thing. Dernoch we have that he was basically getzvungen shtein un leynen a droshoh vos di advokaten zeine hubben em matzia geven tzu zoggen, vi a klein kind vos di mamme heist em ibberbetten a bruder oder shvester, is another reason to cry. Yeder einer farshteit alein az di matzav is nisht azay poshut. No Mosad can survive today the way they run. Every Rebbe darf womb to tomb mosdos far zich, val az nisht iz er nisht kayn Rebbe, az nisht ken er nisht fabritziren Chassidim. Most of you would agree with me that most generic Chassidishe schools, such as Belz, Bobov, Vizhnitz and Skver, BeSoch di andere fun di Peylishe Chadorim, could really be morphed into one super-Mosad, where all boys of those kreizen, and all girls of those kreizen could be educated in one school. Throw Satmar and Ger into that mix too. If you need thicker socks or longer peyos then expect it from your children without the enforcement coming from the school.

Is this in our future?

That maybe a way to get Mosdos haTorah VeHaChesed into ship shape, ober "mah yaaseh ho'Odom VoChoy?!" וואס זאגט מען פאר א יונגערמאן מיט א שטוב קינדער, וואס די מוסדות רייסן ביי אים געלט, און די קינדער גייען אין קעמפס און סעמינעריס, וויזוי דארף ער אזוי אנגיין??????? These multi-Millionaires are sitting up there and lecturing to the masses how to conduct an honest life? How many kids does Ben Brafman have? What kind of salary does CD Zwiebel make working for the AI? Will I have my weddings paid for like Reb Avrohom Schorr has rich, Poylishe supporters paying for his? Why not put up Joe the Plumber - his frum counterpart, I mean - and let him tell us how he does it, despite all those kids, tuitions, camps, seminaries and no help from his rich parents/in-laws! Nobody's advocating anything but a legal lifestyle, KeMuvon VeGam Poshut, but nobody tells us vi kumt di katz ibber di vasser. Even the ones with 2.2 kids in the FT and LI are already screaming that keeping up with the Goldbergs has become too much of a burden, so what are we supposed to say? Which goes to show you that the whole "ועשית הישר והטוב" forum that they have there every year is what, exactly? what does it teach us, other than telling the masses how hard the Government is cracking down, and how difficult it is to sit in jail?! And that just addresses the issue of the cost of education. What about housing and food? שומו שמים!


Anonymous said...


dovy said...

wow, Tzig,
This may be your most brilliant post yet. (It's probably the first one I've seen that I completely agree with)

snag said...

R. Yair Hoffman spoke about this in his article at Vos Iz Neias. Ayen shom.

seen it all said...

To echo dovy, this was pure brilliant writing. You hit it on the head the real issue, but too bad nobody is going to pick up on it.

While we're at it, the difference in lifestyle between litvishe RY's and some admorim is astonishing. Kol hakovod to these RY's who live in simple homes, make unembellished simchas and are a dugma chaya to how a frum yid should live regardless of his disposable income. Unfortunately the tuition crisis and support your aidem in kollel system is eating away at their system just as it is to Chabad and men darf hoben a groise yeshua.

Isaac Balbin said...

הרבה עשו כרשב’'י ולא עלתה בידם
ועיין ביאור הגר''א באדרת אליהו

Anonymous said...

aderes eliyahu where?

voiceoftruth said...

Nice post, but you're wrong about Zwiebel, and possibly the others as well. Zwiebel makes a moderate salary, (a huge cut from what he was making as a brilliant young lawyer in some law firm in the city), works his can off, and lives a VERY simple lifestyle.

Anonymous said...

Tzig a brilliant post but your attack on Zwiebel is shameful. Here is a person who is a living role model of eidelkeit and yashrus of "ALL" askanim. A person who for 'no reason' whatsoever keeps on getting flak on all blogs, but your shot tops it all!

Zeibel makes a big salary at AI????
You must have eaten 'meshugane shvemlach' on an empty stomach after the tunehs, before you wrote that line in an otherwise brilliant post.

On your main issue, I do think most chadorim could be combined. except Satmar.

Here is my proposal for starters.

First the problem: Every morning in BP you have every farkaakete moised running thru my block with their own school buses clogging up the entire neighborhood. All virtually doing the same route and burning yiddish gelt for NOTHING! Besides the traffic havoc morning and afternoon as result of a Rebbe'le having a need to have his true name on a bus (think Viznitz, Bobov, Skvere).

I propose a plan that I think could easily work for all. A company should formed with all moisdes chipping in. (I will explain funding, read on plz) Yellow buses should be running up and down all Avenues in BP. and every street. Any kid from any school belonging to the consortium should have a right to ride on any bus and make any transfer he or she wants.

Kids will need tickets from a particular yeshiva that could be used to ride the buses, those will be distributed to students. The Yeshiva itself will have to buy these tickets in bulk from the said bus company. This way there will never be a way for any Yeshiva to play games with transportation funds, and the bus Company will never lack appropriate funding.

This plan, in my estimation could eliminate two thirds of the buses running around in Boro Park.

Plans like these don't happen because??? (fill in the blank)

Aderabe, if anyone here finds a flaw in this little plan, improve it! Instead of lamenting and cursing the dark. Why not put our collective heads together to propose workable ideas.

Yosef 718

HUNGRY said...

R' Yerucham Oolshin still lives in Yeshiva apartments!

Avremele said...

The Spinka Rebbe NEVER lived in luxury. He lives in an ugly house above the old B"M on 56th Street.

Not Brisk said...

I am humbled.

non mouse said...

the other lakewood roshei yeshiva and mashgiach also live bitachlis hapshtus.

ashrey dor sheheim manhigov!

Anonymous said...

Why the lying insult about R'CD Zwiebel? He lives simply(I was in his house)is a very decent person and a ben torah.By working for a non profit he is taking a very large pay cut.
Leave him alone.
Apparently anytime you see Agudath Israel you see a need to service your masters by talking trash

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

ok, ok

I didn't pick on CDZ out of the blue; he's sitting on the dais so he got it.

Despit him living simply and working for a "non-profit," he still doesn't have to worry about his daily bread, or how he'll pay for his child's Bar Mitzvah suit.

Even if C"V the AI folds he'd have no problem finding a cushy job at a nice law firm.

My point still stands.

Anonymous said...

Also proposing that all the various chassides'n should just join into one big school system(besides Chabad, of course!) is your insulting way of saying that all the various kehillas being "peylishe" have no redeeming qualities of their own.They are Chaganikkes.You as a Chochma bina vodaasnik are "above" them.

In actuality there are few mosdos in Boro Park that are not quite full anyway

From the economic standpoint (your supposed forte as a bookkeeper)I don't even think you"ll see any savings.Big usually means more bureacracy, more fights,less competition.New York City's Board of Education with a million students has a yearly budget of 23Billion!!Equal to 23 thousand$ per student.The frummeh schools are doing much more with much less.
Additionally, if a school belongs to a certain group there is much more of an incentive to fund raise.For once this can be learned from the Lubab, as many Lubavitch houses and centers they open they find ways to raise $ for the salaries of the directors, Head directors,Head,Head directors etc.The reason is because there is a vast stream of untapped fundraising resources waiting to be tapped.Do you think for example that George Rohr who has donated many million to Lubavitch would feel compelled to give money to this Chulent mosad that you propose?Maybe if Rohr had a family connection to the mosad such as a shared chasidic backround or anything else he would.Rohr is just an example.People feel compelled to give to institutions they are close to, not generic institutions for the most part.

Anonymous said...

"My point still stands."

Your point would stand better if you didn't talk trash about Zwiebel.
Also, why do you write pointless garbage ,without any back: "Will I have my weddings paid for like Reb Avrohom Schorr has rich, Poylishe supporters paying for his? "
What "peylishe supporters" are you talking about? He is a Gerer and as such has very simple weddings and I would doubt if his congregants pay anything towards them

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

"יעדער שמויגער פאר זיך טויג ער"

so goes the saying

every Yuld here is a mind reader, they know exactly what I intend to say and what I really mean!

Comparing Yeshivos to the bureaucracy of the NYC BOE is ludicrous.

I was actually saving the "Peylishe" as you call them the agony of having Lubavitchers in their holy midst, so I allowed them to keep their Mosdos.

But please tell me; is there a need for Skver, Skver BP, and Rachmistrivke Chadorim, all within half a mile?!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

anon 5:39

I heard this from supporters, attendees of his shiurim, who were very proud of it, they didn't try to knock him, and NEITHER am I!

I'm just saying that it's easy for them to speak

Anonymous said...

"I was actually saving the "Peylishe" as you call them"

I thought you were the one that called them peylishe here:"Most of you would agree with me that most generic Chassidishe schools, such as Belz, Bobov, Vizhnitz and Skver, BeSoch di andere fun di Peylishe Chadorim, " Did I misunderstand?

"every Yuld here is a mind reader, they know exactly what I intend to say and what I really mean!"

No mind reader.Maybe you actually tell us what you "meant" to say so we won't need mind readers?

"But please tell me; is there a need for Skver, Skver BP, and Rachmistrivke Chadorim, all within half a mile?!"

There may be no "need" but as I stated before there would be probably be very little savings since each moisad gets to tap into it's own financial supporters who would not give as much or anything to another group.The facts as they appear to me are that in the kehillas with splits as regrettable as they may be are doing financially much better now than pre-split.Satmar has fundraised tens of millions of new money that they could never dream of pre-split.Bobov that was pre-split in deep debt is doing way better for both factions post-split,Viznitz etc.


Anonymous said...

I don't know if you know but R'Schorr sister is married to a very well to do Yid.I don't know if he needs any help, but if he does he surely does not need his congregants

Anonymous said...

"Comparing Yeshivos to the bureaucracy of the NYC BOE is ludicrous."


Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...



1) they don't waste like the BOE does

2) rebbes are non-union

3) They have no federation ripping off the Gov't like the BOE does.

4) People have to actually pay for schooling, they can't just milk the State like the BOE does

Maybe A Litvak said...

'"Will I have my weddings paid for like Reb Avrohom Schorr has rich, Poylishe supporters paying for his? "
What "peylishe supporters" are you talking about? He is a Gerer and as such has very simple weddings and I would doubt if his congregants pay anything towards them'

Are you kidding? 'The Ruv' will never have financial dayges.

Anonymous said...

I love

Have you seen how some shluchim live???

I met someone from LA who told me about the shliach driving a mercedes and I know of another in Australia who drew a salary of more than half a million dollars plus benefits.

How about combining all chabad shuls in Crown Heights into 770 to save money on bills, selling the buildings and using the funds for mivtzoim or feeding poor families ???

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

anon 10:15 has a problem differentiating...

maybe he can get some professional help?

Not every issue here is Lubavitch vs. _______


UD said...

"But please tell me; is there a need for Skver, Skver BP, and Rachmistrivke Chadorim, all within half a mile?!"

Ever heard of Kinas Sofrim ? The only instance where Hasugas Gvyl is allowed ?

Anonymous said...

Why don't you tell us what the Rebbe's answer to the parnasa issue was.

Clearly his was to go to University, despite what the Rebbe says because...

1) He went himself, despite the Rayatz telling him not to....

2) So many Lubavichers going to University

Most chabadskers live a basically modern orthodox lifestyle, plus learning chasidus and wearing a sirtuk just to make sure they don't feel inadequater compared to the "peyiiiilishers' who were never zoche to be in Nevil.

I guess going to College is not a problem, seeing how many Lubavichers are fraying out, despite being from good families, growing up with the Rebbe and not going to University.

Either Chabad has no answer or you guys are not listening to what the Rebbe's answer was.

Which one is it ????

ReaderPerson said...

I never heard of "plus benefits" in Australia.

Isaac Balbin said...

The "Australian" is hardly a "shliach" he happened to get a very plumb job in a very established and connec ted non-chabad shule because he has what they want.

I'll look up that אדרת אליהו ... it's been 30 years :-)

Anonymous said...

I thing the difference between all the Skverer courts are in the onion Kugel only how much spices. But the Tehilim shabos morning everyone believes in.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

which one puts in the most spices?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...


I understand Kinas Sofrim, but what good is it if they can't survive by doing the straight and narrow?

Anonymous said...

"I understand Kinas Sofrim, but what good is it if they can't survive by doing the straight and narrow?"

Do you have any proof,backup for your theory that one school instead of many would be more economically feasible?

Why focus on the relatively few kids in the Skver and the like chadorim?Will that alleviate the problem for the klal, or are you just getting "back" at Skver because you have proven on the blog many times that you don't like them?

How about consolidating Chabad Houses? I know that you always "jump" to their defense.But lets analyze for a sec.I'm not talking about consolidating a guy from New Jersey with a guy in Cali, but for example, why do you need to competing Lubabs in and around Monroe NY? and MANY,many others.
What happens is that these Lubab hit on people for money on the cheshbon of moisdois.
How about selling R'Guraries' baby on Ocean Pky,The Lubavitcher Yeshiva.Big building, worth 10 to 20 million, empty .Very few kids.One side in the famous Weinstock will where a big percentage of the 40 million bequeathed $ went to lawyers in an all out Lubab war over $
I know.
Lubab is perfect!
Only by "others" are there problems!

Anonymous said...

Huge amounts of money which could have been used for worthy causes have instead ended up in
Why does Aspen Colorado need an at least 13million dollar Lubavitch center?
Why does Bal Harbor Florida need an 11 mill Chabad center.Where do the monies for these institutions come from?
Why does Lubavitch of the Upper West side need an extremely expensive brownstone?
Need I continue?
Now this loser blames his own ex Rebbe, the Spinka for "needing" to have moisdes to "produce" chasidim??
What an ingrate!
What a liar!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

the idiots are climbing out of the woodwork, again

They have no reading capacity, so I can't blame them. They simply don't understand what I'm saying, despite a basic knowledge of the English language.

Anonymous said...

as long as there will continue to be infantile bickering amongst the rebishe hoifen, it will be unthinkable for a zalmen satmarer to send their child to the aron satmar moisdes.

there is a true story about the Zehlimer Rav ztz"l. he had a t"t still from the 40's (on rodney and south 1). when the Satmar rav ztz"l opened his t"t, some guys suggested to the Zehlimer rav that he talk to the Satmar rav about not interfering with his territory, His response was, (to this effect) does it matter in who's t"t these children learn, the ikker that they learn.
מי יתן לנו תמורתו such clear and emmesdige thinking is totally extinct nowadays.

Anonymous said...

We understand what you are saying.
You are a big eitzah gebber.You have an idea to save us from the tuition crisis.A "brilliant" idea that will never happen.We will never ever see a consolidation of mosdos.You know that.Yet you propose it.
Now you also ask "what is the eitza to live legally and still pay bills"

Weren't you the guy making fun of the chaseneh takonos?

15 years ago the most brilliant guy who ever lived still reigned.What did he have to say about it??

Setting up a system which would eventually become a network with thousands of Chabad Houses.They provide parnosseh.Really.
It actually was a great idea of mixing a (hopefully )spiritual quest with the mundane of allowing a couple to have full time jobs that support their families.Some more some less.

nu nu said...

Anon @ 2:03,

"Do you have any proof,backup for your theory that one school instead of many would be more economically feasible?"

It's really simple.
In the business world when 2 companies are doing the exact same thing but they are both struggling, they merge and cutout a massive chunk of the overhead and form one giant conglomerate.
For some reason in the yeshiva world, although many (most, all?) mosdos are struggling, there seems to be no shortage of people who feel they need to open up new mosdos.
Every mosad has their own bills to pay, including but limited to: mortgage, electric, teachers’ salaries, administrative/secretarial salaries, janitorial, books/seforim, food, etc… If a bunch of them would join they can cut out a massive portion of these expenses. It’s really simple. Speak to the administrator of any Yeshiva and he will agree that if he joined forces with 2 or 3 other Yeshivos it would help the financial situation a lot. But the administrators don’t make that decision, it’s the Rosh Yeshivos who do and ein shtei melochim mishtamshin b’keser echod.

ConsumerVigilante said...

I am of the Chabad persuasion and I *ABSOLUTELY* agree with the comment regarding the $13m center in Aspen and the $11m in FL and there are many, many, many more like this....

How Chabad Shluchim can spend extravagant amounts on extravagant buildings and lifestyles when their fellow Anash suffer terribly in cities like CH, Chicago, LA, Pitt etc etc etc is astonishing....

I dont know too much about the Chagas/BP politics but Lubavitch definately needs to be shaken awake. A center in Aspen can be built for $5m and $8m given so families can live and breathe and marry their kids with some pride...

Tzig, as much as I admire much of what you write you are wrong to say that we are clean on this one...

Anonymous said...

Anon 2;44
I don't see where all these expansive shuls are related to Tzig argument,

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

they're totally not related to my argument!!!

A place like Aspen and other exotic locations is very expensive. Nobody's taking money slated for CH poor people and building centers with it.

The argument borders on moronic.


Some shliach NOT building a center is not gonna put money in your pocket.

Anonymous said...

Plus if you open a shteible on the Upper Wewst Side no ones walking in. Yuppies dont do Shteibles "INZEREH DO"

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

You don't need a shteeble but a little moderation is important. The yeshiva on Ocean Pkwy is a perfect example. Why not rent out half the classrooms as offices for smaller mosdos?

Anonymous said...

According to torah a shul has to be built nicer then your house, so this discussion is emotional but not hlachacic

Anonymous said...

You guys all missed the point about CDZ,
how did he become a lawyer??? of AI pays him enough for his lifestyle and i am sure he aint strugling for tuition.
Todays yeshivas dont let college and definitly not university so why didnt they have people such as your joe the plumber get up and speak?

Avremele said...

Sunday, August 02, 2009 10:15:00 PM

"How about combining all chabad shuls in Crown Heights into 770 to save money on bills, selling the buildings and using the funds for mivtzoim or feeding poor families???"

They aren't "chabad" shuls. These were shuls that belonged to others that Chabadskers bought to prevent them from becoming churches ch"v. Yes, the niggaz will take any place with a large room and make a mini-church out of it. These little shuls are a zecher to what was once "BP".

Avremele said...



President off Utica, Grankel's shul. Currently Vielepol E. 21 I&J

Empire Shtiebel, Empire bet. Kingston & (?). The Riglitzer Rov. grandfather of R' Leizer Horowitz, rabbi of Agudah BP.

Rayim Ahuvim, The old Rabbi Hecht's Shul, transplanted from Brownsville.

Anonymous said...

Some are finding creative ways to finance the high cost of tuition. take these boys for example;

Anonymous said...

The question is: how will you do. You will need to to get a niche marketplace that you're eager to put it on the market their products.