So my buddy is telling me about this great Shabbos he had in the Hamptons, rubbing shoulders with all the Hotsy-Totsy Fancy-Shmancy people. Then he tells me about the shul there; that it's the greatest Shul in America, That he wants to go live there, just for the shul, yadda, yadda. That got me wondering; why is he so excited about a shul when he has so many shuls in his own neighborhood, and travels around to so many other places. מה ראה ביכ"נ זו that he loves it so much? So I poked around online and found a picture online of the Hallowed halls of the Hamptons Shul. And then it all became very clear to me. He had never sat so close to his wife before! Even in some of the more Modern shuls he had to crane his neck and either turn around and/or look up to see her. Here it was so easy, not even a glass partition to keep them apart. And best of all, it was all Orthodox, no guilty feelings to deal with after davenen. Don't get me wrong, I'm not here to condemn any shul or anybody's choice of shul, it was cute to me to see the laws of Eruvin applied to Mechitzah,, where poles stuck in the ground counts as walls, despite the reasoning for a Mechitzah, being pretty simple... The shul is under the leadership of Rabbi Marc Schneier.
One of the many faces of Orthodoxy...
74 comments:
The Schneiers father and son put on a good show. They know the value of a good cantor , awell trained choir, a well heeled and tanned rabbi, a beautiful rebbetzin (sometimes traded in every few years), well dressed congragants and last but not least quality food and drink at Kiddush and luncheon. They deliver this at their 3 temples, Park East, THe New York Synagogue and their center on the Island.
Looking at one's wife in shul is not so bad,(after all you see her at home most of the time) but I guess what gets people to show up at these places are all the above and a chance to get a good look at other people's wives all decked out to impress their friend's husbands and their boy friends, although I would not suspect our correspondent of that.In his case kelim naeh(seeing a so called sophisticated Orthodox shul with fine food and drink)) marchivin daato shel adam., makes him feel as he can be Orthodox and leave the idiots of BP, WH , and CH behind.
Personally give me my broken down shul with a good bowl of cholent.
Tzig,
With your post you touched on a very fringy topic going back to Reb Moshe (RMF) in one of his more famous Psokim on Mechitzas, where he did exactly what you describe as "to see the laws of Eruvin applied to Mechitzahdespite the reasoning for a Mechitzah, being pretty simple... "
This Psak and a few others (Cholov Stam is another famous one) gave him a view if giving for the Modern-Orthodox community whatever they need and stiil be called Orthodox with the backing of one of the most if not the "most" renowned Posek of his time.
And you are not talking about an American YU type like JB, RMF was a Kadush V'Tahor, its known that while living in Russia in his town he questioned the Kashruth of the Mikveh and for somewhat 40 years his was a Porush!
Many consider it that in his mind he saved them from becoming farther away, while othersview it as a push towards Modericy for people who might have sticked to more Orthodox rules, shouldnt they have on whom to rely.
Its the way you look on things, but this photo in the Hampton Shul, together with Schneurs comments reminds me of what I once heard on the American Judiasm "while in Europe you had to become Reform or Conservative to obtain some religiuos freedom, in America you can stay Orthodox and still enjoy the benefits of being Reform and not even compromising your identity"
חבלי משיח, ועל זה כבר צווחי קמאי דקמאי, אודות הבירור שיהי' קודם ביאת משיח צדקנו (או לאחריו, אם אתה חבד"י משיחיסט) השם ירחם עלינו.
Hirshel,
say what ever you want, according Reb Moshe its a kosher shul, since it has a din Mechitza. Shemiraas Eniem u need everywhere at shoprite too.It is more to the side of Novel Birshis hatorah what the all america yidishkiet is all about, just different levels.
"its known that while living in Russia in his town he questioned the Kashruth of the Mikveh and for somewhat 40 years his was a Porush!"
Wait a second. Due the math. Your numbers are a gross exageration. v'dal
We don't have to bring rayes to the kedusah of r' Moshe.
Interesting, in the back of Keser Rosh he says that the Goan was on a higher dargah than R' Zelemele therefore he was more 'regular', ayen shum (containted the Kedusha)
I hear from a meshugenah that those words can describe der chilik tzivishin R' Moshe uhn der Satmar Rov...
Not brisk
I remember vaguely that the Gra was makpid to eat Garlic on Fridays with talmidim, I think its in masseh rav.
The perishus story of reb Moshe came out by the shiva when the gap in years of Reb Reuven and Reb Dovid was mentioned, I don't think it was 40 years, I rather think 7 years
Yeah, it is around 7 years, not 40. The gadlus of it was that he was mattir the mikvah for his k'hillah which was kasher al pi din.
The most important thing is that there is a Rov that paskens its okay and the people follow the psak.
Tzig... Do you listen to the psak of your Rov on every issue or do you come up with excuses not to listen? If not, then you do not even have poles...
if you are in the Hamptons, you have to listen to the Hamptom's Rov, and not bring Meshugaas from New Hempstead
funny a Satmarer should say that... when we all know what they said about RMF's short Mechitzas...
If I wrote 40instead of 7 it's beacuse of what my memory fooled me, not to blame anyone for exageration, but you get the point.
And lets not turn this in a Prishus or Kedisha debate, but rather stay on the topic of the mechitzah.
Anon (1:52),
So you would use the term "Novel Birshis Hatorah" on Reb Moshe, or on one who listens to a Psak he wrote as an answer to ones Halachic question הלכה למעשה, and not in Dibros Moshe?
Chas vesholem, Reb Moshe has to say they way his daas is comprehending what the torah has to say no matter where chips will fall,(see his famous hakdoma regading pesak)but whoever uses every loophole in the book is still a Novul.. as the ben sorer also eats kosher only probably glatt stake..
I see some people quote the Igros Moshe without opening the book. This shul is NOT kosher according to reb Moshe, who needs the mechitzah to be shoulder height. Eruvin doesn't mix with mechitzah according to reb Moshe, maybe according to the Rav.
The joke goes with the Satmar Rav telling reb Moshe bebeis haavel that according to you the table is also a mechitzah. If so, than I guess the satmar rov didn't read reb Moshe either.
The Rav and reb Moshe are not the same. Most MO Shuls don't follow reb Moshe on Mechitzah.
A Chussid:
I don't understand what you are talking about. The Conservative movement doesn't exist on the Continent, and exists in the UK as a very small movement.
Many European countries (Eastern Europe, France, italy had/have no non-Orthodox religious movements at all. Germany and Hungary did, but nonetheless a non-frum is less likely to define himself as Orthoox than in Europe.
Since somone beat me to the punch with the Satmar Rebbe and Reb Moshe I will tell you one from Chaim Berlin from Reb AHron Shechter. A ochur came over to him after they built the Beis Medrash and said if you look up ou see the women so REB ahron said to him "KIK NISHT".
Mul Haienum,
I was reffering to the areas in Europe where Reform did exist, and I don't understand what your point might be.
The concept is not a nme of a movement, its not being thrown out of society.
and if you do not follow the New Hempsteader Rov's psak, how can you judge the Hamptoner?
who's "you," me?
A Chusid
I think you should heve the decencey to give Reb title for JB, he was a goan olam in kol techume hatorah beyiun, you can disagree with his stand but you have to have more respect for a godal beyisroel, also perishus is relative you were never in his bedroom.
"A ochur came over to him after they built the Beis Medrash and said if you look up ou see the women so REB ahron said to him "KIK NISHT"."
Don't be redicules, you can't see the ezras noshim at all in CB. R Ahrons point is, if you can see then it's your problem. Not to mention he goes bannas when there is a bris in the yeshiva and any woman wanders near the lobby outside the beis medrash, he goes crazy about the woman waiting for their husbands in the street after davening on shabbos...
Rav Moshe gave his psak in a situation where the woman were behind the men, but the was only built in chairs separating them, when you are facing a hirhur, no mechitza will help, let alone the way many of them are dressed they have a full din of evrah.
"also perishus is relative you were never in his bedroom."
You sound like you wish your were (don't give me the story about the gemara with rav yehuda).
How someone acts in their bedroom, can be seen outside too.
"(don't give me the story about the gemara with rav yehuda)"
Rav Kehana
Who has ever heard of a "kosher" mechitzah? You are not eating it, it is simply there to separate the two genders. The Talmud records this as a "tikkun" not as a Halakha, and it is quite possible that it was not a universally accepted custom. I am aware that RMF tried to make it a binding law, but this is far from normative and reflects polemics more than anything else.
So whats wrong with the aesthetically very pleasing mechitzah in this picture?
Michoel said...
Yeah, it is around 7 years, not 40. The gadlus of it was that he was mattir the mikvah for his k'hillah which was kasher al pi din.
Wednesday, July 22, 2009 2:20:00 PM
I heard the story with a different twist. Reb Moshe was the rov when the commies took over and he had a hidden kosher mikva in the city. He realized that if his wife got pregnant, the Jewish commies would understand that his wife is using the mikvah and they would find it and destroy it. So he was poiresh from his wife, but maintained a kosher mikva for the yidden in town and encouraged them to use it. The mikva was 100% kosher and he was poiresh solely to hide it from the commies.
tzig, its bein hamtzarem...plz lay off attacking others (at least til after yom kippr)
tweeter
Lay off how the successor of the Rosha Yeshiva Zatzal; deals with women. I have seen rich women in the actual beis midrash. Case Closed
RSC is a real chushvah yid and he even drove a cab once in order to stay in learning. Picture his nemsis doing that?
Chusid,
Have you ever seen RJBS acting in a inappropiate manner that you can judge him, on his private life, there is no photos of him in the Kol haohlem kulo with a huge silver tray of food, not even strolling the Alps.
Seen it all
What year did Reb Moshe leave the USSR ?
why the abbreviation for rav shlomo carlebach (not the singer)?
Just reliazed that on the great site, Hebrewboks.org, they list the Maneh Leigrois but you cant see the actual sefer it looks like they took it off, out of respect of Reb Moshe, eventough I heard then, that Reb Moshe said its torah and everyone has the right to differ.
anonymous (with the loaded questions that I haven't published YET)
The point of the blog may be Chabad, but this thread sure isn't about it. Also, from your follow upo question I can very much tell that all you want is shmutz to surface. I choose not to go that way, and I basically don't do that with any group.
Some points:
1. This mechitza doesn’t meet the minimal height required by RMF
2. If women don’t cover their hair/dress immodestly you run into additional issues.
IIRC RM has a teshuvah regarding using a glass mechitza and paskens that it can only be used if women conform to the laws of tznius.
The point of a mechitzah is not to stop those who look on purpose, as they will find a way....
It is to stop those trying to daven with kavana from seeing somthing or thinking about something they shouldn't during davening .....
Anon 10:50pm
According to Reb Moshe, the point of a mechitzah is unrelated to seeing the women. The purpose of a mechitzah is too prevent men from comfortably conversing with and mingling with women. That is why he paskened that it has to be high enough to prevent reasonable conversation and mingling.
Mul Haienum,I don´t know wich Continwnt you are talking about when you say that the Conservative movement doesn't exist here.It exists all over Europe. In Poland you even have a kehilla with a so called gay rabbi. You have Reform and Conservative (Masorti) kehillas in Switzerland, Sweden, Finland, Germany,Poland and in the Czech republic just to mention some European countries. And when I and my sons went to an Orthodox Kabalat Shabat/Maariv davenen in Lubech (northern Germany), with a Chussid as a Baal Tefilla, there where no Mechitza what so ever.
Chassid: I don't know why you mention RJB like that (I've long given up trying to force some kavod hatorah for him out of people here). When plenty of "orthodox" shuls in america had no mechitza he published a long polemic on it and probably would not have davened in a shul with a mechitza like that.
Besides, even applying hilkhos eruvin, you have no mechitza. I'm sure at least one of our resident talmidei chachamim will catch it.
Modeh Bemiktzas,
to say on dinie eiruvin and at the same token hilchas sukah that you have no mechitzah, is kefira betorah shbaal peh
I feel terrible for all the chasidim and anshei maaseh dwelling in the Hamptons who are forced to daven in a shul like this.
BTW, I would hate to daven in a shul like this for the simple fact that my wife would have an unobstructed view of what I do during davening.
What he said about the Bidatz, is it on tape?
Keeping the cigs between his fingers like that, is that normal behavior? And you make that man who ran the yeshiva on the hill to be into his cigs. Consistency? Nah. forget it
cigs?
what are you talking about?!
Since my post on Rabbi Joshuah Ber Solovietchik (RJBS) took some people off balance, when I used the term JB for reffrence, I want to make it clear;
I am liberal enough to give him the Rabbi title, and dont get offended when people call my own Gedolim with less respect then I do.
I have no problem with RJB's Prishus and did not point out a lack of it, I was camparing RMF's status with the ones from RJB, and while one can argue that RJB was a respected American Modern-Orthodox Rabbi it is not to compare to the sector of Orthodox jews Reb Moshe represented.
(Not to mention that RJB was far from his Father RMS and even further away from his Ziede Reb Chaim, his uncle the Brisker Rav was not very excited about him, not only for his Mizrachi leadership)
And that was the biggest wonder how he catered for the MO community exactly the way he did.
Now, the person who commented about Mechitzas not being required by the Halacha, but rather as a Tikun in the BH, this is the strongest argument but on the wrong side. This means that in order to satisfy it you have to view it as a Tikkun and if you have not been Mesaken anything, then the whole point is missed. Think about it.
Again RMF was a Gaon V'Kadush and I am not in a position to even come close to understanding his Gadlus, but perhaps this can be a reason not to relate to the public on a down-to-earth manner but more from a hollisticial view.
In todays day in age the way MO women dress and behave sometimes, even a small Michshol to an inocent Man is the ooposite of "Lifnie Iver Lo Titen Michshol" and no Halachic Mechitzah will assist such case at the Beth Din Shel Maaloh.
Forget about the Ervah Shaaloh, in front of which one is not allowed to Daven and be Mazkir Shem Shomayim, your going to say well I am only seeing it above the 10 Tefachim Mechitzah so in essence its like not seeing it?......
Reminds from the person that built a Sukkah with Halachic walls (Gid Achis, Lavud) and was wondering how the Guy got inside and stole his Candelabra.
ועל זה מצווח הנביא: מי בקש זאת מידכם רמוס חצרי
Yoel Kahan
go back to sleep, you're having a dream about Reb Yoel.
A few points, in addition to what some here have already pointed out:
1. It is not only forbidden (halachicly) to daven in a shul like this - it is forbidden to recite anything that is considered 'dava she'bikdusha'.
2. It's quite likely, that even according to the the stretched reliance of RMF on allowing a mechitza of only 58', he himself would not allow such a mechitza today- as the median height of women in N.America today is said to be 3' taller than what it was 30-40 years ago.
3. Nobody honest considers Marc Schneier 'orthodox' in anything other than his business card, he's barely 'conservadox' (and unfortunately totally ignorant of halacha). His pops 'Arthur' knows how to learn, alas his yetzer-horo was a little stronger than he was willing to battle...
The A. chusid comment. Rabbi Soloveitchiks name is not Jeshua its Yosef (Joseph).
Until the creation of the Yeshiva world in thelate 1960's in the USA, the rav (Rabbi Soloveitchik) and Rav Moshe were catering to a very similar eylem . neither was catering to the 200 hundred or so Kollel people in the USA.There was no other Tore world in the USA at that time. The rav as a respected observer once noted was the leader of Modern orthodoxy but was not Modern orthodox himself. All were respected by the various groups of rthodox Jews at that time namely : Residual Orthodox Jews , Old timers, Young Israel Orthodox and the MO people. Chassidim by and large had little use for rav Moshe , nor was there a large Chassiidc population until the early 1970's. I am old enough to remember the 5 chief poskim for American orthodoxy dehaynu the rav, reb Moshe, Rav Henkin, the lubavitcher rebbe and to a lesser extent rabbi Eliezer Silver.
These were the rabbonim consulted on issues of the time like Mechitzah , JCC's being open on Shabbes, Shechitah bans, and other such halachic issues.
Perhaps in that small world of Kolel people Rav Aren reigned supreme , but in the centers of Orthodoxy of the time CH, WH, LES , East Flatbush, Brownsville, Far Rockaway, the Grand Concourse etc etc and even parts of Wiliamsburg the Morei derech were the rav, rav Henkin, rav Moshe and the Lubavitcher rebbe.
The average orthodox Jew in those areas probably never heard of Reb Aren and the other roshei yeshiva .
My point the rav and Reb Moshe were catering to he same crowd.
By the way Reb Moshe was a relative of the rav . I am also unsure exactly how respected Reb Moshe was in the yeshiva world of the 1960's and 1970's as a hoge daaoth , I think in that area people like R. Hutner and Reb Yankev were looked upon for leadership more than Reb Moshe.
I am aware that RMF tried to make it a binding law, but this is far from normative and reflects polemics more than anything else.
He was the first one, eh?
Hirshel,
The loonies are coming, lock the doors.
Sorry, what'd I say?
Schneur,
Brownsville was almost over in 1960 forget about 1970.
After WWII which is basically from 1950 is when the Charedi movement from both spectrums Chasidim and Yeshivish started planting the roots of Ultra-Orthodoxy in the US.
In that era the population of both fractions were not large enough to even consider "outsiders" as thier posek, so Lakewood had Rav Ahron, Williamsburgh had its Chasidic and Hungarian Rebbonim and poskim like Rav Yonasan Schtieff, Tzelhimer Rav, Satmar Rav, Pupa Rav etc.
RMF still represented the pre-war NYC Jews at most, and the unaffiliated imigrants from all countries.
Should he imply stricter guidelines, many of them would to date follow his Psokim, while others might have left him to follow the Rav or RJB call him the way you want.
RJB represented the YU movment which was (re)built and (re)established to provide modernity alternatives for Orthodox Jews so they dont have to leave for the JTS or Shechter Seminary type of Judaism.
He was much more of an idioligist then RMF, studied in Berlin secular studies while RMF was a great Talmudic Torah giant like his Lithuanian predeccesors.
How can you compare the two concepts, while someone is driving an idioligy the other one is writing Psokim right from his Rabbinic Studies.
RMF was one of the first to treat mehitza so seriously, he even implies it is a Torah Law, which is ridiculous on its face.
Seen it all
What year did Reb Moshe leave the USSR ?
Wednesday, July 22, 2009 10:22:00 PM
I remember hearing 1926/7, but ayin b'wikipedia who says 1936.
writing about 'One of the many faces of Orthodoxy...'the chabad shul in Miami you also don't have do strain your neck to see the ladies the mechitsa is lower then this one in the Hampton s
Shcnuer!!lubavitcher rebbe a posek ? give me a break!
to . חסיד said...
about your snide remark abour reb moshe's psak on cholov akum.
let me tell you,it is none other than the chazon ish himself,that paskens that bizman hazeh where there is strict government regulations on the production of milk,therefore there is no issur of chulev akum;
CHAIM
I was surprised that you didn't comment on the Hampton Synagogue's use of an innovative "Shabbat microphone"... these guys will find a hetter for anything...
Here's a snippet from the article from the website of the designer of the system, Clayton Acoustics Group:
http://www.claytonacoustics.com/pages/approach/orthodox%20synagogues/design%20approach%20orthodox%20synagogues.html
For those Modern Orthodox congregations willing to consider electronic sound amplification we recommend a “Zomet” Shabbat speech-reinforcement sound system. We have designed and supervised installation of two new Shabbat speech-reinforcement sound systems for Orthodox congregations in New York. For Congregation Shearith Israel (the Spanish and Portugese Synagogue), in New York City, high-technology loudspeakers are sensitively integrated into the newly restored, historic 1897 Italianate-styled main sanctuary. At The Hampton Synagogue, in Westhampton Beach, Long Island, loudspeakers in the contemporary-styled sanctuary are discretely built into the walls, while a separate outdoor system brings every word of the Shabbat service to the overflow summer congregation. We recently designed a “Zomet-ready” speech sound system for future Shabbat implementation at Congregation Beth Sholom, in Lawrence NY.
Anonymous said...
writing about 'One of the many faces of Orthodoxy...'the chabad shul in Miami you also don't have do strain your neck to see the ladies the mechitsa is lower then this one in the Hampton s
Thursday, July 23, 2009 8:14:00 PM
-------------------------------------
Typical ! Some imbeciles never manage to surprise you - look at this moron. He sees an article that has nothing to do with Chabad, with a picture of a mechitza that must be about 4ft or less, and all he can manage is a wild lie about Chabad in Miami.
There isn't a Chabad in the world, anywhere, that has any type of mechitza this low - none. Did you expect anybody to believe you ?
So crawl back into your hole, cockroach, and do what cockroaches do well.
Shneur
Leadership and psak are two seperate issues. R' Moshe was always more the greater posek than leader. R' Yankev was more of a leader and RYH was the main leader of his talmidim, but R' Moshe was head and shoulders greater than them.
However, not everyone thinks that he was the greatest posek in America. Some think R' Henkin was greater, etc.
In Beis HaTalmud, they would call R' Moshe in middle of seder for pshat in the sugya; but they didn't consider him the Posek.
Some doubt if the Rav was a posek at all, i e, did he learn the sugyos aliba dihilchisuh....
Interesting, that they all consulted with R' Gustman: The Rebbe, R' Moshe used to call him, RYH was very close and used to sit in on those long shiurim (and definitely held that R' Yisroel Zev was a bar pligtuah with R' Moshe, v'dal)
Reminds me: RYH, after a long shiur by R' Yisroel Zev, approached him and complimented the shiur. The response: R' Chaim Ozer said the same thing....
He was sending tshuvas to the Tcheibener Rov when he was in his twenties.......
Modeh Bemiktzas,to say on dinie eiruvin and at the same token hilchas sukah that you have no mechitzah, is kefira betorah shbaal peh
What kfira? Where did I say anything against torah shbaal peh?
Not Brisk: RJB was a rosh yeshiva more than a posek. In later years he got "rebbefied" and moreso after his ptira.
Chossid: I wasn't referring to the dropped R, though I'm happy shneur picked it up. I meant that you implied he was mekel on mechitza when he was far from anything of the sort
HT: Maybe you could post some of the relevant tshuvos?
Tzig any comment about the currene events?
I have lots and lots to say...
I hope its along the anti moiser lines and not all the self rightous how could frumme yidden be dishonest talk.
these days of Av are very scary
maybe is better to go to sleep until Shabbos
Mike,
I've davened in a Chabad shul in S. California where the "mechitza" is a few potted plants which are only 4 or so feet high and you can see clearly right through them. Also the Torah is read from a stage in the front of the shul. I complained to other Chabad about it but it seems pretty standard among the Chabad outreach shuls.
The shul also has a microphone, and a teshuva posted in the lobby allowing it to be used on shabbos.
I'vebeen there, and the mechitza is the smallest problem with that place!
Some people may not like it, but from 1950- until the very end many Jews looked to the Rebbe for halachic guidance on ommunal issues.
The Rebbe never posed as a teffel-lefel morah Horoah, but in communal issues he was looked upon as a major posek.
Another note the rav did not create a new movement , I could argue - punkt farkert - that the whole "mahus" of the present day yeshiva communit is Yesh maAyin historically , nothing like it existed in Lita, and White Russia, with all its daath Torah hashkofoth, dress ritual, super material values hyper frumkeit, anti Zionism , and separatism.
Schneour,
The Yeshiva movement a "yesh me'ayin"?Surely you jest.
Let's take some of your examples:"Nothing like it existed in Lita or White Russia".The Mir technically in Poland was very much like Lakewood of today, though Lakewood has more beards and chasidic levush.
Super material values?The average yungerman, drives a jalopy and his suits have hat hae seen better days.
Hyper frumkait?Don't just start with demagoguery.
Schneour I value your opinion generally, here you are just spouting empty cliches
Schneur,
Over the weekend I spoke to a old rosh Yeshiva, he told me that until Lakewood all the yeshivas as Torah vodass and chofetz chaim ran on the same cycle included YU, that first you learn the Yeshiveshe Masechtas but the last year or 2 you learn Chulinn Yoreh deia, to get a shtele and become a Rov, but Lakewood changed the scene by the kolel system learning with no tachlis for a future,I think that Lubavicher Yeshivas still keep that tradition.
Anon,
"The shul also has a microphone, and a teshuva posted in the lobby allowing it to be used on shabboson"
is this the same shul as skeptic, can we publicize that shul, its not Losho Horah
"AD MOSAI AD MOSAI" will we worry about Mechitzos between men and women instead of focusing on the Mechitzos between us and Hashem?
Anon,
not having the right mechitza is a mechitza between us and hashem we are a religon of alot of laws and a little bit of emotion
IS the schneier family claim of being originally Schneerson true?
The Schneiers are of Hungarian extraction. They have not shown a shred of evidence that they are related to the Bais Horav, except for ahowing up or greeting a meeting of the Igud Hatzetzaim a number of years ago.
I did not say yeshivas are a yesh maayin I said the social , political and cultural communities around the yeshivas are a yesh Mayin. And the whole hashkofa of todays yeshivas have little to do with Lithuanian yeshivas with regrads to frumkayt, Hiddur Mitzva, Chitzonius, attitude towards Israel and yes gashmius.Where in Lita were there whole towns with only yeshiva people , Pray tell me ?There were no secular Jews in Slobodka ? I guess just ask the late rabbi Miller. Did the Litvishe yeshiva layt also buy the Italian suits ? How about condos for $750,000 in lakewood So if this did not exist in Lithuania where did it originate , I think you need to move further west much further to Hungary and there you will see separatist communities, materialism (Lithuanai was the poorest area of east Europe) stress on super frumkayt and chitzoniuth symbols of orthodoxy. etc etc.
Take one look at the ads in the Yated and the cost of housing ( Markets do not lie) in places like lakewood, Passaic , Flatbush. Take a look at Haneeman the journal of Telz in Lithuania full of secular p poetry like the Indian phiosopher and poet R. Tagore , modern Hebrew etc. As one promnent Rosh yeshiva said in those days there was no hashkofa and no Daas Tore.
Just 1 last question was the brand its icon so to speak of the yeshiva world the black hat extant in Lithuania did anyone wear a bent down black fedora in the frum world of Lita as late as 1939 ? Not the rabbonim (homburgs), not the lay people (kasketen and younger people caps and light hats)) not the bachurim (grey and light colored hats)By the way who invented the black fedora as a symbol of the yeshiva world. Probably Bing Crosby and the characters he liked to play in many of his films.
thanks schneur you confirmed my suspicions about the nonexistent Schneier Schneerson connection.
Maybe Schneier is an americanized form of Schnorrer?
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