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A reader writes:
Reb Tzig: this is a new book revising the history of the Jewish revolution in Russia. There is no mention of chabad shluchim at all. 500 chabad shluchim with mosdos covering all of the former USSR are not mentioned. All chabad chasidim from the era of the Frierdiger Rebbe to the Rebbe are not mentioned. When they did this kind of hagiography about Torah in the USA they ignored the Frierdiger Rebbe and the Rebbe, but at least in the US there is still some logic to such glaring omissions, you still had a big Yeshiva world that will give credit to RAK etc... Rabbi Berel Wein (who is ironically now ostracized by the charedi world) did alot of their farbisene dirty work.. But in Russia, where there all they have is 3 holes on 4 walls... to ignore Chabad... is real old fashioned Pravda journalism. Nothing less. Did Rabbi Matisyahu Solomon know in 1976 how many mikvaos were functioning in the USSR? Was he interested to know how many shochtim there are Leningrad? Did Rav Pam have Jews traveling from city to keep the fire of Torah burning, under the noses of the KGB? Did they stay up nights crying about their brethren in the USSR?.... It's simply shocking that in 2014 such obvious lies should be printed in hard cover form by a Jewish, frum, publishing company. Whoever they may be. But anything goes and no holds are barred when it comes to bashing Chabad, even if it is by omission only.
124 comments:
Glatt a Chutzpa!
Is that a pic of R' Nissen on the cover?
no, Shmuel, it's not Reb Nissen. I think it's Reb Yitzchok Zilber
It's yellow journalism; not red
Rav Moshe and Rav Yankiv were both Russian and had a lot of grief for Russian jewry. They both participated in whatever they believed would be beneficial for them. I don't believe they had boots on the ground until Rav Teitz went in the 60's. With regard to Rav Moshe, his high regard for the Lubavitcher rebbe is in print, in Igros Moshe and cannot be denied.
yellow is something else. red here means Commie journalism.
is the writer working for the magazine (Wikipedia) Zman?
is Zman not part of the yiddish magazine der shtern
What does the sentence mean: "But in Russia, where there all they have is 3 holes on 4 walls."
not sure, Dovy. any ideas?
Tzig
I haven't seen the book so i cant comment, i do think, though,that your calling Rabbi Mordechai Neustadt, who could be your grandfather, "motty neustadt" a disgusting low class act and it does nothing to strengthen your case.
Please note, the man in the center picture on the right, is the man behind anything Jewish in the whole Soviet Russia.
Yup, him, or if you want Reb Yoel the Satmer Rebbe. (has been tried before)
Talking about kool-aid....
I recently skimmed through a book "100 inspiring rabbinic stories of the Holocaust and Soviet Jewry" (or something like that)
In order to have enough stories about Russian mesiras nefesh without G-d forbid mentioning Ch***d they brought a few stories from Czarist times (!) [yup, just not enough stories about mesiras nefesh from 1930 and on..]
Ok so then they brought 2 or 3 pareve ones, and then one about "Avrohom Netzach" (!!)
For those of you who dont know, that was the pen name of R' Leizer Nannes when he first published his book "Subota" b/c he was scared of repercussions from KGB etc.
2 options
1) they did horrible (i.e. none at all) research and didnt find out his real name
2) .........
We had some peace and quiet from your paranoia of "the world against chabad".I guess the powers that be have demanded you press the paranoia button again
Will you ever grow up?
You remind me of the silly chabad rabbis, grown ups with the childish colorful yechi kippas
Rav Teitz visited the Lubavitcher Rebbe before each of his trips and was entrusted with many personal missions...on his behalf.
"not sure, Dovy. any ideas?"
its lubob lingo
it means they don't fargin anyone else
btw the reason chabad is so heavily involved in russia is because they have succesfully blocked anyone else doing kiruv there
Assailing gedolim doesn't bolster your "case" against this book. Even if some weren't publicly fighting this fight, you don't know what happened be'chadrei levavos, especially among gedolei torah. That the book ignores lubavitchers is shameful. But your behavior is no less. What happened to ahavas tyisroel, dan le'chaf z'chus, being a mentsh. What's your excuse? You think you're pinchos?
which גדול did I assail?
http://www.collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=26010
The real "underground"
And in Lubavitcher books, all non Chabad factors are given their rightful place in history, yes? No revisionism or ommission, correct?
My grandfather Rabbi Tzvi Bronstein Z'L' made many trips to russia and was even arrested and thrown in jail. but i guess before vaad hatzolas nidchei yisroel came around, nothing of substance was ever accomplished before the.m
Anon
"Assailing gedolim doesn't bolster your "case" against this book. Even if some weren't publicly fighting this fight, you don't know what happened be'chadrei levavos, especially among gedolei torah"
you are imbecile that can not read
where did the circus rebbe insult a Godal
noting new
"Please note, the man in the center picture on the right, is the man behind anything Jewish in the whole Soviet Russia."
forgot to add,
Everything real kosher in Benai Berak
Noting New
"Ok so then they brought 2 or 3 pareve ones, and then one about "Avrohom Netzach" (!!)"
its hilarious
can you please scan it lekovad yom tov... it will give some relief from the Pre Lesach Lachatz..
self appointed
"btw the reason chabad is so heavily involved in russia is because they have succesfully blocked anyone else doing kiruv there"
now I know why I see Rabbi Bliech on 17th ave in BP every morning, chabad/putin took away his passport....
This book is a simple history of vlny. Didn't read enough in the store to know who they omitted, but it's about them and their accomplishments. From the late 70s and on
does lubavitch ever acnoldge how many yeshivas navordik had before ww2
It is ridiculous that they do not mention Chabad. And "self appointed chief rabi", the reason Chabad dominates yiddishkeit in post soviet russia is because they were already there with their network of underground institutions, ready to come out of the underground and take charge in the open.
The book should be an interesting read in any case. I have wondered what non-chabad people did in the USSR.
I have read a bunch of personal memoirs of people who were in Russia and managed to leave and become or stay frum. They have no agendas and no issues, yet Chabad is a small presence in these memoirs. (Yellow star over red square is one of the names, I think). I remember noticing this omission and I asked someone who went to Russia in the 80s about it. He claimed that different towns were different and where he was there was very little chabad influence.
AFAIK, the names of people working to teach Torah in Russia post-Stalin include Reb Feivel Cohen etc. The mohalim were Reb Uri Ashkenazi, Dr. Sifman, Rav Belsky etc.
Possibly the major Chabad influence is as overrated there as it is in the US, where they are regularly interviewed for an 'inside look' on orthodoxy, but do not really influence very much at all. Even in Kiruv, they are at most a small step along the way of some of those who return to Judaism.
The major influence in helping people change from secular Russian lives to completely frum and (mostly) guaranteed frummer doros in Mooscow was Rabbi Goldschmidt and להבחל"ח Reb Moshe Soloveitchik. Maybe quantity isn't theirs but quality certainly is. The 'Kozyone Rav' is Rabbi Lazar who manages to be in the news regularly and is close to the evil regime there, but actual learning and growing is in the hands of those unsung heroes.
More of today's fully frummer Russians were in Vinitza and Stolin and Odessa than Chabad can show us.
the person who is often forgotten and worked on this full time for 20 years is Arye Kroll, I had the privilege of being one of his "shluchim".
http://www.triumphovertyranny.com/uh_2009/hero_05.htm
Heshy,
There was a time when you quietened up a wee bit in the last few months.You stopped your attacks on the "infidels", the ones who have not (yet) accepted malches.
You seemed to have again started the nasty cycle where you make up (almost)blood libels against Snags and others and cry crocodile tears when you get answers you don't exactly like.
I guess the ss storm passed, eh?
Now you can go back to your negativity.
You can stop your bs attacks and lies now, so we don't need to go thru this again.
Or you can continue your lies and propaganda and be yet again taken to the cleaners when your cultish lies are exposed
I see. so you guys get to lie and I need to be quiet because it's an "SS storm," whatever that means?
Because there are hundreds of BMG and Mir graduates waiting to move to the former USSR and are being blocked by the big, bad lubavs who want all the comforts and recognition of living in Siberia.
Please.
Hirshel,
Please. You quieted down recently. Everything was going back to normal. People were drinking the kook-aid and enjoying it.
Why do you have to keep fanning the flames of Machlokes by exposing ugly things about great people? Mamesh blood libels!!!
Here's a question to ponder:
I won't go into the sheer chutzpah of publishing a book about yiddishkeit in Russia without mentioning the Kedoshim of Chabad who were imprisoned, tortured, shot, etc. for keeping the flame burning behind the iron curtain. It has been so well documented, you'd have to be an idiot to innocently miss it.
My question is, why the need? What's the paranoia? Is it really that scary if your average Litvisher heard something positive about Chabad, that you have to resort to such revisionist tactics?
So here's a true story from Russia: http://jemedia.org/email/newsletter/My_Encounter/4-19-14-BW.pdf
i can't stay away from my topic, can i?:)
I was in Russia and was part of BT movement of 80's+i know a lot what was going on before.
THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO DID ANYTHING FOR RUSSIAN YIDEN WAS LYUBAVITCH. FACT.
Everybody became busy with Russians after death of Brezhnev Y''SH when it was relatively safer then before.1930's,40's, 50, 60's and 70's it was only Chabad besides some eyechidim.(Rav Bornshtein from Al Tidom, BUT HE WAS A YUCHID)Before that only Chabad really cared and did anything. I am not a lyabvicher, i leave in Borough Park, BUT EMES HAS TO BE SAID.
And this book is trash and lies. I do not want to say anything more.
R Yitschok Silber by the way, all his kids chinukh came from Chabad, and that's where he gedreit before EY.
I once asked a venerable old Lubavitcher Chassis by the name of Chaikel Chanin OBM if he, after surviving the evils of Stalin can fathom the evils of the Misngdim. He answered me with the words of the Haggoda: "Shebechol Dor Vador Omdim Oleinu Lechaloiseinu. When I asked him but the communists were Goyim here they are Yidden??? He answered plenty of Tiffany made Lubavitch Tzoros...
Tzig,
This letter is narishkeit. I know R' Mottel personally quite well and from my dozens of hours of talking with him over the years, I've never heard him say a bad word about Chabad [or anyone else for that matter.] He's kind of a quiet person who prefers to get things done than to speak more than need be. This is a fact that can easily be confirmed. His goal in this book [I purchased it before YT and read about half of it so far] is to discuss what VLNY did in Russia. The amount of credit he gives to others is staggering. He could have claimed much more for himself because he was the driving force behind the entire enterprise.
I vividly recall how he bugged my father to be a shliach for years and it almost happened until the visa arrived a few days too late. He was never a classic "macher" and his aim was not to discuss Chabad or the lack thereof. He was focused on what the Vaad did.
I also find it interesting that this is a taanah because last I checked, Chabad does not usually author books discussing the accomplishments of others. Typically their books are reserved for their own accomplishments - and there's nothing wrong with that. To each his own. Why you chose to highlight a slanderous letter about a very good man I can't fathom.
Yankel
Can u give numbers of how may yidden Rav Goldschmidt has brought to Yiddishkiet?
10? 20? 30 ? 40?
who is Soloviechig? never heard of a Solovichig in Russia?
Is Goldschmidt now running for chief Rabbi of Germany? is that the reason he tries to portray himself less charadie ....
Does Goldschmidt have a running Cheder in Moscow?
Does he have a functioning shechita in Moscow?
Does he have a yeshiva in Moscow?
What exactly means by you real yiddishkiet? reading Hapeles? or Yated?
"here was a time when you quietened up a wee bit in the last few months.You stopped your attacks on the "infidels", the ones who have not (yet) accepted malches."
you always start believing in a utopian world, where all cells of hate have vanished, but books like this and commentators like you, constantly reminds Hirshel that the hate mongers are still out there.
Imagine how hard a Godal like Rav Shtienman has to work to cleanse the world from hate centers,as the so called yeshiva in Chadera, who are bastions of Sinas Yisroel.. just listen to this vulgar rosha vegas ruach Rav Aronson... the so called ROSH
I am a middle aged Lubavitch who had the Zechus to have seen Elterer Lubavitcher Chassidim who saw both the
Rebbe Rashab and the Rebbe
Rayatz who were literally
survivors of Mesirus Nefesh.
When Bnei Brak led an on
scale war against Chabad, I
asked Reb Chaikel Chanin a
venerable Chossid what he
made out of it. He answered
me with the famous words of the Haggodah:
שבכל דור ודור עומדים עלינו
לכלותינו
I immediately questioned him: "is that not more appropiate to apply these words of the Haggodah to the Russian communists who were not
Jewish and not to Yidden?"
He answered that there were plenty of Yidden who assisted the communists, some who were seemingly Frum too. I have to ask a question to "point to ponder". Were your family sacrificing their lives for Yiddishkeit tormented by the KGB? Loosing family members for the sake of doing the Tasks of the Rayatz? I perceive these anti-Lubavitchers akin to the Holaucost deniers. It stems from Kina and Sina. As for you it doesn't hurt you because not you nor anyone of your family was involved on-the-job Lubavitcher Mesirus Nefesh. I guarantee that if you would be part of it it would hurt you.
Anon
"I also find it interesting that this is a taanah because last I checked, Chabad does not usually author books discussing the accomplishments of others."
again a slander
whenever the askunas of the Rebbe Rehab is mentioned,it is always written that he worked with Reb chaim brisker.
But would you expect that chabad should write the Rebbes war against Mihu yehudi, with Rav Shach as is copilot....he worked all he could to torpedo it...
Russian Chusid,
Did you read the book???
I"m pretty sure you did not
This remark proves you are a baldfaced shakran: "R Yitschok Silber by the way, all his kids chinukh came from Chabad, and that's where he gedreit before EY."
This is just an outrageous lie.His kids chinuch came from him! You never read R'Yitzchok Zilbers book either.
R'Yitzchok, single-handedly, as a single person did more than Chabad did.
shlomo is our new resident FERD
Why am I a ferd?
Lets try and discuss what raised your ire?
I did not know that Tzig and his "anonymous" or maybe just a nice nickname for Tzig himself, was such a lamdan.See this lomdus, worthy of a nice twist with the "grobbeh finger" with a talmudical "niggen".
First: "It's simply shocking that in 2014 such obvious lies should be printed in hard cover form by a Jewish, frum, publishing company."
The "piresh Rashi" here is, that actually the only problem the fellow has is that this book is not about Chabad.WHERE are the "so called" lies???
On that you have his "brilliant" teretz: "But anything goes and no holds are barred when it comes to bashing Chabad, even if it is by omission only."
So actually he backs off and admits that there are no "lies", only Chabad is not mentioned!
Uhuh!
Boobaleh, this book is NOT ABOUT CHABAD, do you not get it?
Chabad does a nice 24/7 job of pr'ing themselves, while omitting all others!
Lo'm'ech op!
shlomo,
you are a shakran.
to remain a jew
page 365 and up tell you who were his gemoro rebe in and whole Tashkent life period was with chabad. Ray Silver defiantly gave his kids a great chinuch, but without Chabad his kids would look like everybody else in Russia.
Do you know that whole his life in EY he gave shiurim in Tanya in Shamir?(and he was not a chabadnik))?? He always kept in touch with his Chabadske friends.I was a Ben bais by him, so nobody will tell me about him, especially if you are an American.
One good book about Russia is "in the shadow of Kremlin".
was printed only once by Artscroll and never reprinted again.I wonder why....
Russian Chosid
I think it was a translation from the 2 volumes of Reb Naftali Gotlieb
and I don't wonder why
Eli
"The "piresh Rashi" here is, that actually the only problem the fellow has is that this book is not about Chabad.WHERE are the "so called" lies???"
would writing about the establishment of the Aguda, without mentioning the Imrie emes, be a lie, technically its not, since I did not lie, but I omitted him.
Would writing about Machine matzos without the Sanzer ruv be a lie,Tectonically its not, since I did not lie, but I only omitted him
You are ferd with the head in the wall.
Eli
"Boobaleh, this book is NOT ABOUT CHABAD, do you not get it?"
Boobeleh, this book is about saving Russian Jewry, do you get it?????
so Neustadt Russian Jewry???? do you see why we call it lies, BOOBALEH?????
Russian chosid,
Chabad had nothing to do with R'Yizchoks children being frum you can repeat that nonsense as much as you want
Now let's get to your obvious lack of any logic :"Do you know that whole his life in EY he gave shiurim in Tanya in Shamir", where did i say that he did or did not give shiurem in Tanya? What does giving shiurem in Tanya to do with anything?
R'Yizchok did more for yidden and yiddishkait BEFORE leaving Russia AND AFTER leaving Russia than the whole , loud chabad movement, big on talk much smaller on "tachless"
Guys chill.Some Chabadsker does not like a book.So?
What else is new?
They love to hate Artscroll or anybody else that does not do enough to promote them.Meanwhile their own publishing house publishes only Chabad works selling them basically by the pound or almost giving them away.
Have you ever noticed that non Chabad shuls and by that I mean any non chabad, chasidish, heimish, yeshivish, modern never carry any Likutei Sichos?
What's with that?
None of you thought to see that the perush on it all is the author's shoresh
come on, Leroy, spit it out. what's the shoresh?
Shlomo
"R'Yizchok did more for yidden and yiddishkait BEFORE leaving Russia AND AFTER leaving Russia than the whole , loud chabad movement, big on talk much smaller on "tachless""
Can you do the numbers of the kids that are now in the Chabad institutions in the former USSR, and the numbers of Rav silver
You spew hate for the sake of hate, but Hirshel has no right to bring it on....I guess Haters & Bashers don't believe in objectivity and transparency...
Yitzchak
"Guys chill.Some Chabadsker does not like a book.So?
What else is new?"
at least the Chabadniks don't ban it as the whole Litvak gallery banned 1 of their own the ben horav, Reb Nussen Kamenitzky..
What else is new?
Yitzchak
"They love to hate Artscroll or anybody else that does not do enough to promote them.Meanwhile their own publishing house publishes only Chabad works"
Does Mishnas Reb aron print Mishnas Reb Berel Povarsky???
Yitzchak
"Meanwhile their own publishing house publishes only Chabad works selling them basically by the pound or almost giving them away."
Can I give you a list of Kehos seforim that I need for my bookshelf, and I dont affort to buy?
Give me the corner where they give it away???? Please..
Shlomo,
The bad news is that his kids are saying otherwise... You want a conference call?I l'll sponsor it, since i am from few people who have their cellphone numbers.
R Yitschok Silber did a lot, but again, he was a yuchid. Chabad had 100's like him (like him is pretty hard actually, he was really unique, but close to him and some more then him-yes)
People who set in Sibir 20 years?100'S if not 1000's Shochtim , mohelim and melamdim who went on Kidush Hashem through all the years???Underground chedorim???Did R Silber made sure there is kosher meat in Leningrad, keshinev, Kiev, Zhmerinke, Zhitomir,Mohilev etc??? Who ran and supported them?Aguda?What are you comparing???
YOu are so ignorant, it is not even funny.
"R Yitschok Silber did a lot, but again, he was a yuchid. Chabad had 100's like him (like him is pretty hard actually, he was really unique, but close to him and some more then him-yes)"
Russian, you are such a shoiteh it's not funny.
Lubavitch had hundreds like him?
Name them....
More than him....
Wow, what an ass you are
What a waste of time to discuss anything with you.
R'Yitzchok was a really great man, brilliant, yet he still had time to talk to an idiot like you.
But there are limits, he could create a new brain for you, so you remain the same shoiteh.
"People who set in Sibir 20 years?100'S if not 1000's Shochtim , mohelim and melamdim "
Why, thousands? Millions!
I"m curious to know how often R'Yitzchok Zilber is quoted in Chabad "history"?
WARNING ABOUT SHLOMO. HIS ANTI CHABAD SENTIMENTS CAME OUT. QUOTE: " REB YITZCHOK SILBER DID MORE FOR RUSSIAN JEWRY THAN THE WHOLE CHABAD
MOVEMENT".
NOW THAT SOUNDS REALLY REALLY INTELLIGENT.
who sic'ed Shlomo on this blog? זיי זיך מודה
he doesn't help your case, that's for sure
Shlomo
outside of ridiculing and cursing people with class like Russian chosid,noting intelligent spewed out of you human faucet....
why should someone reply you....
" HIS ANTI CHABAD SENTIMENTS CAME OUT"
Why the capital letters?
I am quite clear.I am anti Lubavitch.
I think they have caused much more damage than they"ve helped.They are arrogant and ignorant and are dumbing yiddisihkait down.
Of course some shlichim are good people who care passionately about yiddishkasit, but many others care about Lubavitchkait something somewhat related to the real thing.
And yes, R'Yitzchok Zilber did more for AUTHENTIC Yiddishkait in Russia and later on in Eretz Yisroel, than all the loudmouth ameratzim of Chabad.The decent Lubavitcher baaley mesirus nefesh from Russia were not loud, did NOT WORSHIP (and cause to worship) you know who, and when they did come out of Russia did not become "celebrities".(
P.S Tzig,I don't represent anyone, but I"m quite sure that my negative sentiment on Chabad, the Meshichisten shlit"a and the other garbage going on in Chabad are shared by many.Your blog and it's gemeineh attacks against your perceived "enemies" does nothing for your p.r cause.Even in this post, you had to change the post headline after you were chided, probably by a fellow lubavitcher realizing the damage to the "cause" of addressing Rabbi Neustadt in a despicable disrespectful manner, becoming a despicable agitator like yourself
SHLOMO, PERPERTRATING HATRED AS YOU DO (QUOTE... YES I AM ANTI CHABAD...) IS NOT OKAY ACCORDING TO ANY FRUM OPINION. BUT MOST OF ALL YOUR WAY OF
EXPRESSION SOUNDS REALLY DUMB!!!
( LEKULEY ALMA). I REALLY BELIEVE THAT
YOUR ROSH YESHIVAH (IF YOU EVER HAD
ONE WOULD BURY HIS FACE IN SHAME,EVEN IF HE ALSO WAS A JEW HATER LIKE YOU. AND BY THE WAY I HOPE THAT YOU DON'T HAVE OR WILL EVER HAVE THE HAOZA TO STEP INSIDE A CHABADOFTHE HOUSE TO USE THEM OUT.BECAUSE THAT WOULD REALLY REVEAL WHAT A LOW LIFE YOU REALLY ARE.
ONE)WOULD BURY HIS FACE IN SHAME
THE WAY YOU TALK. AND BY THE WAY DON'T .
Shlomo,
As we use to say in Mohilev Podolsk
(after you spitted out all the hatred against somebody who is telling you facts and used bad language and putting down)"Who do you think you are, that I should bother to answer you?"
Enjoy you miserable life (It must be, because of the way you hold a vikuach)
Shlomo
"And yes, R'Yitzchok Zilber did more for AUTHENTIC Yiddishkait in Russia "
Is a Seder not AUTHENTIC Yiddishkait?
Is a Kashrus not AUTHENTIC Yiddishkait?
Is Taharas Hamishpocha not AUTHENTIC Yiddishkait?
Is Tefilin not AUTHENTIC Yiddishkait?
Is a orthodox shul not AUTHENTIC Yiddishkait?
is a chederr and Kidergarten not AUTHENTIC Yiddishkait?
and now the real question, is Tanya not AUTHENTIC Yiddishkait?
how many of this did Rav silver do? and how may did the shluchim do?
Sholomo
" the Meshichisten shlit"a and the other garbage going on in Chabad are shared by many."
you put a disclaimer that you dont represent nobody, but every chabadnik represents all "the Meshichisten shlit"a and the other garbage going on in Chabad are shared by many."
its a very objective way of operating
shlomo
"Of course some shlichim are good people who care passionately about yiddishkasit"
I used to think that Hirshels work is a waste, but now I see that he got even a obsseseive hater like you to agree after 69 comments to agree that there are some decent shluchim, who really mean it. you are just concerned for the bad apples.....gevaldig
SHLOMO HAS ALREADY DECIDED TO BECOME AN ANTI -CHABAD. LET'S NOT BOTHER ANSWERING BACK HIS BIGOTED DUMB COMMENTS.
"and now the real question, is Tanya not AUTHENTIC Yiddishkait?"
Are the Meshicists not authentic lubavitchers??
"Who do you think you are, that I should bother to answer you?"
So why are you bothering??
(btw, I"m sgan nosi hador)
Shlomo Der Velts Chochem וכל שאר כנויי דאית לך (ובעיקר מגדולי החכמים בעיני עצמם)
You asked so nicely, so i"ll answer.
Most of the things you asked are of course authentic judaism, the only problem is chabad was not doing this before the collapse of the iron curtain.R'Yizchok Zilber was.There were a few yechidim, Chabad and non Chabad that tried their best during the Communist regime.After the collapse Chabad muscled their way in, self apponted their ownguy as "chief rabbi" and kissed up to oligarchs and despots such as putin.Meanwhile the only yeshiva teaching authentic tora was R'Moshe Soloveichiks small yeshiva in Moscow.
Is Tanya authentic?Yes.Does every baal teshuva who cannot read supposed to parrot it?
Is Moreh Nevuchim authentic?Is every young yeshiva boy supposed to study it?
Is every one supposed to study kabballa
Der velts chochom - tzadikel, we can explain the difference. You cannot be a שומר תורה ומצוות without tefillin taharas hamishpacha and Torah. You can without tanya. Plenty of great Jews did not learn tanya and came out okay. That should be true even from the perspective of someone who learns and accepts toras Chabad. (A פארטיי חסיד may have a different perspective, but that is an issue for a psychiatrist, not an intellectual discussion)
And you from wesley hills, Shlomo did not become anti-chabad. He was birn non-Chabad like most שומרי תורה ומצוות of today. Not every non-chabadnik is denying his heritage. There are legitimate non-Chabad streams in Judaism.
Wesley,
Your comments are very loud and immature.Very Chabad-like, you know those ignorant Chabad guys, with the long white beards and the colorful meshichist kippahs? That is what your comments come across as
whoever did a job on Shlomo did it very well. He sounds like a Palestinian Holocaust denier. How pathetic.
Now some of my own questions?
Is the Meshichist movement authentic judaism?
If not, why are members of this movement on the bes din in Crown Heights?
Why did they run the main synagogue in crown heights?
how about we ask you some questions, Shlomo? like were you fed Lubavitch hate and lies with your mother's milk? did a Lubavitcher kid on your block bully you?
Hirshel,
What am i denying?
Are you also one of those foolish Chbdskeh naroonem who thinks people could run around opening chadorim ,mikvehs, shechting behind the iron curtain?
Are you someone like the Russian fellow from Boro Park, who claims there were "hundreds and thousands"like Rabbi Zilber?
The facts are that there were a few special individuals, some were Lubavitch others were not.
Tj
have a nice day.
Hirshel,
I notice you don't want to debate the Meshichist issue.
Here is the problem: You can't only claim credit for some of the good things Chabad has done while not taking blame for this very large and quite central group in Lubavitch.
You cannot have it both ways
In the "Lameds" (mid -early seventys) I vividly remember as a Bochur when some American anti Lubavitcher Chareidi Rabbi insulted Lubavitch publicly. Now I knew who this
Rabbi was. and I knew that he had more .
sense than to start with the Rebbe directly (not like today's. Mechutzofim who
'know'more than the Rebbe), so instead he
started with Lubavicher Chassidim.[ I am not
going into who he was
and what insults he hurled, as that's not
relevant to the point which I am trying to
make.] What is important to know about the
story is the Rebbe's reaction:
דער וואס הייבט אן מיט ליובאוויטש הייבט אן מיט ... מיר
Then he said much more than that this (ע"ש)
This pathetic individual lived to regret wagging his
stupid tongue at Lubavitch. Even though the
Rebbe never mentioned him by name, everyone knew whom the Rebbe meant. Bekitzur, don't think you can insult Lubavitchers as a group and get away not insulting the Rebbe. If there individuals on Lubavitch doing inappropriate things, as with all groups, they are just individuals-and even then, there are Halochos of Toichocho. Shlomo's position has no place in the Torah, aside that his remarks are dumb and absurd!
Wesley,
small question:why are lubavitchers allowed to badmouth everyone else.
Like Rabbi N in this article, huh?
What do you guys call R'A hron Kotler?
What kinds of lies and one sided garbage have been promoted on this site ?
Go preach your rubbish to them!
Seems that Lubavitchers get to say whatever they want while nobody else is allowed to disagree.
Avi
I had to rub my eyes there. It has no place in the Torah because the rebbe said so?! Doesn't he have to bring a proof to his words, or is that just for lesser beings like the noda biyehuda or the chassam sofer? (chaga"s'niks, feh!)
This regret was due to a physical assault by those who feel that someone who starts up with the rebbe is akin to starting up with them? I am sure the circular logic is self-evident.
Nobody badmouthed Reb Yitzchok Silber or Reb Aron Kotler.All that Hirschel Tzig pointed out was that the book had an audacity to ommit Chabad's work in Russia. Instead of
admitting it, YOU build a whole denial case
and Fardray the Yoitzrois. It's YOU "Chalere"
insulting and degrading everyone else. It's
appalling to see YOU young Mechutzofim
voicing their
opinion. Now as for Yankel's comment: Yankel we have to give YOU a Kvittel
as YOU believe that you know better than the Rebbe when Gedoiley
Hador like Reb Moishe Feinstein, the Bais
Yisroel, the Sekulener Rebbe,the Pupa Rebbe
and countless others had big Derech Eretz
and Haarotza for the Rebbe but you Tippos
Sruchois don't. Feh!!! YOU are the real Venom
Meshichisten!!! Mechutzofim of YOUR calibre
will bring Moshiach with your Chutzpah as it says in Siyum
Masechta Peah, Beikvese Demeshicha
Chutzpah Yasgey, and YOU were mekayem it
Behidur Godoil!!!Feh FehShame on YOU.
Shlomo
I am ready for the debate on meshichisim
bring it on
Anonymous Chabad Chossid of Wesley Hills
Let me give you an eitza toiva:You don't make a good case for Chabad by dropping dark hints and frankly using gutter language even though it's cloaked in "loshon kodesh"
You haven't been around the blog that long, because Tzig has published some very venomous and one sided attacks against non Chabad sympathizers .
Bekitser as has been said a number of times on this blog:To get respect you need to give respect.
Btw, I am quite sure that Tzig did not even bother to read the book to see if there is any truth in the critique before he allowed this nasty attack on the person behind the book.I wonder if you read it...Yet you are all up in arms...
I said that the lubavitcher rebbe, just like the noda biyehuda, has to bring proof to his words. How is that disrespectful? Did Reb Moshe not disagree with him and his proofs in Igros Moshe?
And btw, from Igros Moshe we see that Reb Moshe had as much respect for the LR as he had for the tchechenover rov and the helmitzer rov and countless others, nothing close to the הכנעה you party members are demanding.
^Yankel
I know you would like to be it that way, but in the foreword to volume 8 the family writes it different.
I heard from many people that spoke to Reb Moshe personal, and got a different picture..
Shlomo
"Let me give you an eitza toiva:You don't make a good case for Chabad by dropping dark hints and frankly using gutter language even though it's cloaked in "loshon kodesh""
why should anyone listen to a Eitza from a obssesive hater, Mersheoim Yeitzie Resha.
Hirshel is not a baal loshen hora, he is just working on the Mitzva of Ubiarto Horo Mikirbechoi.....
Yankel
"I said that the lubavitcher rebbe, just like the noda biyehuda, has to bring proof to his words."
the Noda BeYehuda did say Taam Hakomes on the shearing chol hamoed issue...
After the war, the concept of Daas Torah/ Kechol asher Yoricho became the mantra of charadie Jewry. the yeshiva world got introduced to Reb Elchonans famous doctrine of daas torah, whatever the gedolim say we have to listen. Chasidim on the other hand were trained to abide to their Rebbes from day 1.
Please dont try to portray the rebbe and chabad as the exclusive bunch of following blindly a rebbe.
Having said that, its ironic that the Rebbe was probably the only godal, that explained at length, all his directives to chasidim and was asking to be challenged..
why does EVERYTHING about chabad get into the meshichistim isssue?
If Chabad or VLNY did more work in Russia has nothing!!! to do with mishichistim.
"you have names of 100 lubavitchers (off-hand) who ran secret yeshivos mikvaois vechulu in the chofs-lameds in russia? umm umm MISHICHISTIM!! whatdya gotta say now retards?"
"I know you would like to be it that way, but in the foreword to volume 8 the family writes it different."
Very reliable.lol.what a fool you are
Shlomo wants to give ME an Eitza Toiva. What a joke. His comments are full of hate, Chutzpah and Bigotry which reveals that he is infected with all the Ruchnisdiker Machalos and I believe that his Niderikeit would take
him to take advantage of any Lubavitcher in
Shaas Hatzoirech (if he is out of town and
needs Kosher food, he would run to Chabad to fill his Pupick!) as many of them do. Actually some do Teshuvah this way and begin to respect Chabad's great work. Who knows with Shlomo.
I would like to address a very important Nekudah to our Choshuver readers to address. Yankel's comment which is a clear misinterpretations of what I said before.
1. One thing Reb Moshe Feinstein respectfully (as always), disagreeing with the Rebbe and that is the normal way of things . Another thing is the Nideriger Right Raf which I see which we are witnessing in this generation disrespectfully attacking the Rebbe. The truth is that at this point I am not addressing my comment at this lowest element of humanity, Vail Es Pas Mi Nisht. But rather I am making a Macho'o and clarifying the point. Men Meg Halten Andersh, but do not speak like a Chaya Ro'o for a real Manhig like the Rebbe.
A second point, making fun of Lubavitcher Chassidim for following directions from the Rebbe is a terrible mark of disrespect to the Rebbe.
A third point, every Yiddishe Kraiz has unfortunately members who don't necessarily behave the way they should. To make fun of the whole Kraiz based on those members, is a most devious and cowardly way of attacking. This we have seen many times with the anti Chabad element.
Chabad Chossid of Wesley Hills .
Try answering without weasling out of this one, please.
How respectful are Lubavitcher chasidim of R'Aharon Kotler??
If you are truthful with the answer, don't demand respect if you don't give it.
Oh, but, blah,blah.......Yeah I know....
Again to demand respect you have to give respect
let the record show that this post/thread was about a book about the USSR and the activities done there to keep Yidishkeit alive. Not the opinions of Lubavitchers about the Kletzker or any other Litvishe Rosh Yeshiva.
"Not the opinions of Lubavitchers about the Kletzker or any other Litvishe Rosh Yeshiva."
From the way you call R'Aharon Kotler "the kletzker" i think we have the answer for wEsley chabad of how much "respect" you give.I don't need that because i remember
when we had an actual בלוט בלבול from Yankee R. that the Tzig "was kind" enough to "publish"..
If you are going to call esteemed rabbonim things don't expect to get respect
Tzig,
Going back to the book:Did you actually read the book before you accepted this "objective" book report?
You don't have to answer if you feel that telling the truth will make you look like a partisan fool
I read parts, and relied on multiple accounts of non Lubavitch friends. Good enuff, Shlomo?
Since you mention books by the pound i say a story. I visit the central bus station in jerusalem often. There is a shule with a large general library which is well used. One day a couple of years ago half the seforim are gone only to be replaced hundreds of chabad books which remained unused.
Again I want to make a public Mecho'o against Shlomo Vesiya'atoi (his cohorts) for purposely deviating this discussion from a critique on a book to anti Chabad feeling.
Hayoitze Mikol Zeh that we can summarize that Shlomo feels that because of many (what
he calls for) legitimate reasons, one may hate
Chabad to the point that one may print a book about Jewish activity in Russia and purposely
exclude Chabad which is an obvious denial
of all the Mesirus Nefesh that was done by
Chabad in Russia.
Yasher Koiach. Now we know the reason for
the exclusion. Sina Mekalkeles Es Hashura.
Hayoitze Mikol Zeh according to Shlomo that because of Sinas Chabad, one may obviously deny all the activities such as the present achievement if post Communist Russia,and Chabad activities during Communist Russia.
I wonder if this Sheker already became an Emes in their eyes too.
I will end this post with a story from Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetzky.story He once asked someone, in view of the fact that the Gemora states that if someone repeats an Aveira it becomes predominance in his eyes, what if he did it a third time? He answered "Ah it becomes a Mitzvah! A fourth time, it becomes a Shita! " On a similar note Rabbi Hutner was once heard saying that there is no worse Rishus than when it is done Leshem Shamanism.Ve'al Kol Hana"l Benidoin Didan. I rest my case.
shlomo
I see that ס'איז געלונגען
ObZerver
its a blood libel, not because of the chabad seforim that were placed there, I dont believe they removed the old seforim, its not chabad style to remove, its more Satmar and neo misnagdim style.
its min hashomaim, that you should be caught as a liar
simcha
"Very reliable.lol.what a fool you are"
its more reliable then this book that we discuss here and all of artscrolls biography.
just remember 1 thing, the tendlers are not friendly towards chabad....
Wessley chosid
"On a similar note Rabbi Hutner was once heard saying that there is no worse Rishus than when it is done Leshem Shamanism.Ve'al Kol Hana"l Benidoin Didan. I rest my case."
Why you quote a hutner, if you have a alte rebbe.. on machlokas leshem shomaim
Lie detector,
Please, please.
What is wrong with your logic?
ObZervor relates a story, I have no way if knowing if it's true or not.Yet, you have decided it's a lie and that he should be caught as a liar.First you need to disprove his story, maybe it is true
"just remember 1 thing, the tendlers are not friendly towards chabad..."
Not true.
Moshe Wolf (who is actually lie detector)
Tell me where is your sechel?
The taynes here hsve been that Chabad does not respect others therefore they have no right to demand respect themselves,right?
So, why are you now referring to Rabbi Yitzchok Hutner, a major rabbinical figure as "hutner"?
You guys just don't get it...
You have no idea why people are very turned off...
Now a question for Hirshel.
You"ve said many times that you will not deal/air with inner Chabad disagreements.You will even not say anything much against the Meshisten.
So, how do you feel comfortable attacking/criticizing others when you are yourself not open to public criticism.I sure hope that you don't believe that Lubavitch is perfect.Where is the middas hoemes?Truth does not take partisan sides, no?
Notice that I"m trying to tone the heated rhetoric down and try and keep it civil
"just remember 1 thing, the tendlers are not friendly towards chabad."
Lets not get into private people here : just to explain.The Tendlers are not very "yeshivish" R'Moshe Tendler is an alumnus of Y.U and taught there both in Yeshiva and a professor of biology the college for many years.He has voiced psakim and opinions that many in the yeshivish world were not in agreement with.Whatever the case, generally one need not open a case of animosity with other groups.As far as i know the Tendlers are ok with Chabad
Moshe Wolf I quoted Rabbi Yitzchok Hunter's quote because I heard it in his name. Anything wrong with that. Now since you know something that the Alter Rebbe said which I may not have heard or remembered, how about you repeating it?
Wessley chosid
the Alte rebbe writes (Igroth Kodesh) Hizharu (beware) of Machlokas Lshem shomaim... meaninfg all what Rav hutner said
shlomo
"just remember 1 thing, the tendlers are not friendly towards chabad."
Lets not get into private people here : just to explain.The Tendlers are not very "yeshivish" R'Moshe Tendler is an alumnus of Y.U and taught there both in Yeshiva and a professor of biology the college for many years.He has voiced psakim and opinions that many in the yeshivish world were not in agreement with.Whatever the case, generally one need not open a case of animosity with other groups"
What does your long derosha have to do with the price of rice in china... Is the doctor that you or your kids are using a Liar? because he went to university, and he is not Haimish
shlomo
"As far as i know the Tendlers are ok with Chabad"
Tendlers picked a few fights with chabad, he went to court to fight chabad for having a chaplain with a beard, and some more times...
Shlomo
"So, how do you feel comfortable attacking/criticizing others when you are yourself not open to public criticism.I sure hope that you don't believe that Lubavitch is perfect.Where is the middas hoemes?Truth does not take partisan sides, no?
Notice that I"m trying to tone the heated rhetoric down and try and keep it civil"
did hirshel claim to be Kotzker rebbe? the torchbearer for emes?
shlomo
"So, why are you now referring to Rabbi Yitzchok Hutner, a major rabbinical figure as "hutner"?"
You are correct, He should of been called Rav Hutner...
Dont blame Lubavich for my bad deeds, since I am no Lubavicher...
" He should of been called Rav Hutner."
It's should HAVE!!
I hate when people are so ignorant.
Please do me a favor:Let Tzig answer the question I posed to him and NOT to you
Thank you
which question, Shlomo?
Hirshel
You are in bad shape, u owe a answer for the chochem hadoir
this question
"Now a question for Hirshel.
You"ve said many times that you will not deal/air with inner Chabad disagreements.You will even not say anything much against the Meshisten.
So, how do you feel comfortable attacking/criticizing others when you are yourself not open to public criticism.I sure hope that you don't believe that Lubavitch is perfect.Where is the middas hoemes?Truth does not take partisan sides, no?
Notice that I"m trying to tone the heated rhetoric down and try and keep it civil"
Hirshel,
Can you answer the question?
WHICH QUESTION??
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