Thursday, December 15, 2005

A Shabbos in Kletzk

(The "Chorev" school in Kletzk)

They've known for a while that ביי די אונגארישע בעליבתים ליגט די געלט, so they decided to come and get it where it's at. This Shabbos Boro Park will merit the visit of Rabbi Dovid Schustal, Rosh Yeshiva BMG of Lakewood, and Rabbi Matisyohu Solomon, Mashgiach par excellence. (Flatbush will have to suffice with Neuman, Olshin, and Kotler.)

Not to be outdone by their Chasidishe counterparts, they too will have תפלות and עריכת שלחנות , just not exactly that way, after all, they must maintain their "Litvishe" identity. So the PR guy said: "don't name it Arichas Hashulchon, call it "Oneg Shabbos" and everybody's happy. Each guest will daven and "farbreng" separately, I'm not quite sure why, or maybe I am....

Most of the Tefillos will take place at "Parve" to Litvishe Shuls, like Novominsk, and Dayan Brode's shul, but there will be a Tefilloh at the Nitra Shul, and the parties will take place in prominent BP mansions. I expect to find many of our friends there......


Anonymous said...

ביי די אונגארישע בעליבתים ליגט די געלט

Is that a brocho, klolo, or what ?

You got a problem with chandeliers ? ;-) You neva hoid of Ungarisha Litvaks ???

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I hoid of German-speaking Litvaks from Kurland, but Ungarishe?!

Anonymous said...

Avadeh ! A significant portion of the Litvishe Yeshivishe velt today is Ungarisha Litvaks. Why there even is a 'Litvishe' Rosh Yeshiva by the name of Rav Ungarisher !

Anonymous said...

What is your point Tzig?
Chabad goes to secular Jewish gevirim, and snags go to Hungarian gevirim... bottom line, you go where the money is to advance your goals.

Anonymous said...

Farvos nisht ? If you can have Moroccan Lubavitchers, farvos nisht Ungarisher Litvaks ?

Anonymous said...

Even Lubavich is full of Hungarians today. HT, in case you didn't figure this out yet, the Hungarinas are everywhere because everyone else was killed.

Anonymous said...

Once again I ask you Tzigele, what is your point????
And if you are trying to point out that The litvisher (and yeshivhser) oilom are conducting themselves more and more like Chasidim, well thatis old news, so what is your point?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...


you sound like a well-meaning guy, but I can't explain every post to you. Read, and comment on the topic discussed, is that too difficult?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...



however, the Moroccan Lubavitchers aren't called Russians, whereas the oxymoron "Hungarian-Litvak".

Anonymous said...

Vi kumt a tzig tzu an oxyshe vort vi oxymorons ??? Siz nit a sheila fun kilayim ??

The Rebbe said es iz shoin tzeit az Lubavitch zol hobben zeyer eygener gevirim. You want the RY's to go to Gutnick & Baymelgreen ?

Maybe we have to get the RY of BMG to be gayzer az es is shayn tzeit az BMG zol hoben zeyer eygener gevirim.

Maybe they can arrange a Kletzker Shabbes in CH and you can butt horns there ;-)

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

re: Gutnick; He did give Tzedakah indiscriminately, and at his first daughter's wedding the BMG crew was there.

Kletzk in CH? sounds like a plan....

btw, whereabout in Lithuania do you hail from?

Anonymous said...

Tzig:Are you jealous that Lakewood has 4 000+ talmidim?It sure sounds like it.
Hungarian Jewry was very steadfast in the Orthodox tradition thanks to the Chasam Sofer, that's why every orthodox group will have Hungarians, from Yeshivish to Ger to Lubavitch.The majority of frum Jews today are probably Hungarian.
Unfortunately yours truly does not have even one drop of Hungarian blood(but I do have a lot of Lubavitch)

Anonymous said...


Anonymous said...

Brooklyn's Lakewood shabbos
Spread the word:


kabalas shabbos: Khal Bnai Shlomo Zalman Rabbi Yosef Frankel 1093 East 21st Street
Oneg shabbos: R' Yosef Tabak 1097 East 22nd Street
shachris: Khal Toras Chaim Rabbi Chaim Weinfeld1259 East 22nd StreetAgudah of Ave. L
mincha/sholosh sedos: Rabbi Pinchus Breuer 29 13 Avenue L

kabalas shabbos: Avreichim Rabbi Shlomo F Schustal 1114 Avenue O
oneg shabbos: R' Abish Brodt 1421 East 7th Street
shachris: Khal Tiferes Yaakov Rabbi Avrohom Schorr 1212 East 15th Street
mincha/s.s.: Ave. J Torah Center Raooi David Ozeirey Rabb' David Sutton 1032 Ocean Parkway

kabalas shabbos: Novominsk Khal Adas Yaakov 1596 47th Street
oneg shabbos: R' Shmuel Rieder1677 48th Street
shachris: Nitra Dayan Ben Zion Strasser 1462 50th Street
mincha/s.s: Khal Shaarei Orah Rabbi Yisroel Tzvi Brody 1465 5 1st Street

kabalas shabbos: Cong. Torah V'Tefilah Rabbi Shimon Alster 3304 Bedford Avenue
shachris: Kollel Bnei TorahRabbi Yosef Eisen 2748 Nostrand Avenue
mincha/s.s.: Kollel Bnei Yeshivos Rabbi M. Scheinerman 2402 Avenue P
shiur a half hour before mincha

kabalas shabbos: Khal Brizdovits Rabbi Yaakov Y Rubin 1721 58th Street
oneg shabbos: R' Yonason Strasser1660 59th Street
shachris: Bais Medrash Yismach Yisroel Alexander Rabbi Yosef Singer 1517 56th Street
mincha/s.s.: Agudah of 18th Av Rabbi Dovid Kviat 5413 18th Avenue

For BMG Shabbos information, please call 732.367.1060 ext. 265
posted by Yeshiva Orthodoxy at 7:41 PM 4 comments links to this post

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...


1) Hungarians are the most simply because they were spared to a large degree in WW2. I do have lots of Hungarian blood in me, and it has its מעלות & חסרונות , believe me.

2) The Chasam Sofer had the same effect in Hungary that Chassidus had elsewhere, plus Chassidus also had much influence in Hungary too. That's not to take away from The "gadlus" of the CS, but I sometimes feel that Chassidus doesn't get the credit due re: Hungarian Jewry.

3) The fact that Lakewood has thousands of Talmidim is יש דורשין אותו לגנאי simply because it don't take much to get in there, and only half of the guys show up anywhere. Der ikker is יגדיל תורה ויאדיר

4) Just remember re: Lakewood; WE WERE THERE FIRST, and who knows: maybe the FR was Machshir the place for Torah?


Anonymous said...

L. was not there first in Lkwd, despite the claim on the Lubavitch Lakewood Yeshiva website. Lakewood frum community goes back over 100 years.

You put down Lkwd, but you think all the guys in L Yeshivas are such mitzuyonim?

Hungarians may be big in Bklyn, but there is more to the world of Yiddishkeit than Bklyn.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I meant previous, not first.

Ii don't put down Lakewood, I said it's not all rosey, that's all.

Chill, please.

Anonymous said...

What's with the teachers in Spink?
''ROSY'' not rosey.
Bright or cheerful; optimistic: rosy predictions

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

well, VML, did you attend any of the programs this Shabbos?

Anonymous said...

Sorry, I did not

Anonymous said...

what did you do this shabbos??
I was in Los Angeles
with the new Lubavitcher Rebbe

Anonymous said...


come again?

Anonymous said...

Mortimer Zuckerman on Lakewood
It can make a grown (kollel) man blush.

Here's the aforementioned excerpt from the Mortimer Zuckerman interview in American Jewish Spirit mag. :

M. Zuckerman: "It was at the behest of a rabbi I study with that I went and visited the Lakewood Yeshiva. I had never been to a yeshiva before in my life and I sort of did this out of some degree of curiosity but more out of a sense of moral support for what had been such a central part of this rabbis life but I have to tell you when I got there I was absolutely knocked out by it. I will tell you that it was the single most intellectually active, energetic, fascinating environment I had ever witnessed. There was a sort of buzz and just sheer concentration and joy in the learning process and it was literally visible to somebody like myself.
"I mean, I said it afterwards, it made Harvard Law School, which I happen to have attended, look like a kindergarten. It was absolutely extraordinary to see so many people - from various walks of life - in there for the sheer joy of learning about their religious tradition. And the sheer intensity and intellectual demands of this place made it such a unique place to visit. So for me, it was absolutely a stunning experience and I wish everybody could have the chance not only to visit it but to have a guide like I did."

posted by Yeshiva Orthodoxy

Anonymous said...

Mort Zuckerman
AKA Mortimer Benjamin Zuckerman

Born: 4-Jun-1937
Birthplace: Montreal, Quebec, Canada

Gender: Male
Ethnicity: White
Sexual orientation: Straight
Occupation: Business

Nationality: United States
Executive summary: Owner, New York Daily News

Real estate developer who became a media mogul, owns the New York Daily News, US News & World Report, and Atlantic Monthly. He serves as Editor-in-Chief for both of those publications. On the 1999 Forbes list of top 400 richest Americans.

Anonymous said...

Rav Desslers grandson with Rosh yeshiva of Ner Israel Baltimore visit White house (with Lubavitchers.Pity it takes a gentile to make Sholom)
By: ELLEN SCHUR BROWN Editor, Family Section

Rabbis Eli Dessler, left, and Aharon Feldman in Washington.
Rabbi Eli Dessler, financial director of The Hebrew Academy of Cleveland, was among 15 Jewish educators invited to an informal discussion on Jewish education in the White House’s Roosevelt Room Dec. 6.

Dessler was seated directly across the table from President George W. Bush during the hour-long colloquy.

“It was a humbling experience,” Dessler told the CJN. “The most powerful man in the world meeting with us, trying to understand what Jewish education is all about.”

Rabbi Aharon Feldman, dean of Ner Israel Rabbinical College in Baltimore, “explained to the president that Jewish education is not just a subject matter, it’s a way of life,” said Dessler.

Bush scheduled the forum to learn more about challenges facing Jewish day schools and Jewish education in general. More than 300 Jewish leaders from around the country were in the nation’s capital for that evening’s early Chanukah party at the White House (see related story page 36).

Describing the meeting as a “casual discussion,” Dessler observed that the president was well-versed on Jewish day school education, as he expressed his support for school choice or vouchers.

“He was explicit that the money should follow the child,” said Dessler, meaning education funds should go to the child’s school, not the district where the parents live.

The Jewish community in Ohio “has for many years had a position that it opposes school vouchers when used for religious schools,” says Joyce Garver Keller, executive director of Ohio Jewish communities.

According to the Jewish news agency JTA, many Jewish organizations nationally oppose school vouchers and charitable choice because federal funds for religious programs violate the separation of church and state. Day school leaders are more receptive to these initiatives because vouchers would help their schools’ bottom lines.

The president offered to answer questions, and the first questioner pointedly asked why the White House doesn’t always publicly support Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.

The president used the question to reiterate his unwavering commitment to Israel. Dessler recalled the president saying, ‘I was the only administration that refused to deal with Arafat, trying to make him irrelevant in the international community.” While stressing his close personal friendship with Sharon, the president told the group he disagreed with Sharon’s putting tanks around the Ramalah compound, which gave Arafat a news platform again.

The remaining questioners avoided controversial subjects or objections to administration policies.

The meeting opened with an overview of the president’s views, including the importance of rebuilding Iraq. On Hurricane Katrina he praised the relief efforts of Hillel and Tulane president Scott Cowen, a former Clevelander, while reiterating his support for rebuilding New Orleans.

After the meeting, Dessler thanked the president for the opportunity to meet with him and for ensuring the dinner would be kosher. “He said, ‘You bet it is.’ He understood it needed to be.”

The buffet dinner featured fish, prime rib, chicken and of course latkes and doughnuts, all strictly glatt kosher. Dessler and Louis Malcmacher, Hebrew Academy president, presented the Bushes with a greeting card signed by the children.

It was the first time the White House kitchen has been kashered, at the insistence of Laura Bush, who personally observed the mashgiach (kashrut supervisor). Previously, kosher food was brought in from the outside.

Representing Hebrew Academy, one of the country’s oldest day schools, and Cleveland, a training ground for Jewish lay leadership, Dessler was something of a celebrity.

“Federations (in other cities) don’t always support day schools,” he said, but people know the Jewish Community Federation of Cleveland was the first to support a day school.

Before the party ended, Dessler and a group of about a dozen decamped to an outside room. They had a minyan for Ma’ariv (evening prayers) and prayed together in the White House.

Anonymous said...

Hungarian Jewry steadfast in its Jewish tradition.
What an absurd statement . The largest group of Hungarian Jews were the assimilationists who wanted to become pure Magyars. Next came the Nelogos a movement like the American Conservative movement. Budapest was the 2nd largest Jewish community in Europe and had only a tiny Orthodox community. Even the Ashkenzic Western Hungarian Orthodox were rapidly acculturating and assimilating and in the 1920's Rav Joel Teitelbaum called for a new "teilung" a teilung of the Chassidic minority in Carpatho Russia marmorash and Northern transylvania awy from the large orthodox communities in western hungary.And even in those Chasidic centers like mUnkatch , Begszasz and Siget , modern schools with large enrollments existed and flourished despite rabbinical opposition.
Hungarian influence on orthodox is explained because over 50% of greater Hungarian Jews survived the war . Maybe more .Compare that to 90% Lithuanian Jews killed. the only stodt rav from Lita to survive was Rav Kahanman of POnoviesz.Most of Congress Poland's Jews were also killed. Ger had over 100,000 followeras, and few survived.
Before WW2 the Yerushalmi community was of little importance in World Orthodoxy . The Eda could not get any Lithuanian gadol to assume its rabbinate and settled for a Hungarian gadol rav Dushinsky.Well they survived in tact so they too became major players. Before the War German Orthodoxy were hardly major players, well, over 200,000 Jews left Germany by 1940 so they too becam major players in Israel and America.
Lets remeber chassidic groups like Radomsk, Aleksander, Sochochov, Sokolov, Radzyn and Amshinov were all major chassidic groups. Who knows about them now. You are more likely to hear about Reb Aron Roth of Shomre Emunim who had a few hundred followers in Hungary bfore the War then the Aleksander rebbe who had over 50,000 followers.
And finally Hungaian orthodoxy before the War paled in significance to the frum Jews of Pland, Gailicia and the Torah centers in Lithuania-White Russia. Ask a Jew in London, Jerusalem or NYC in 1935 who he knew about the Lubavitcher rebbe or the Satmarer rav and you will know what I mean.

ch'sidshe tourist said...

vml: thanks but no thanks why would anyone care where a bunch of "farshtunkene misnagdim" are going to be for shabbos.

speaking of r' matisyohu solomon (for some reason i think the other matisyohu has more fans) i read about his drasha by the aguda convention and was surprised to see that he spoke so much of Moshiach. My first reaction was, y'know, they are finally catching on, but then i continued reading how he listed off all of the "geferliche tzoros" that klal yisroel has these days: cell phones, internet etc. R' Matisyohu dramatically said what is the only solution to all these problems? There is only one answer and that is....Moshiach. At that point i felt that they are poshut desperate they feel helpless and can do no more than wait for moshiach. nebbach on such a culture.

Anonymous said...


you stole my thunder!

I sent this whole long post to Tzig 3 days ago, and he's yet to print it!


Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I'm here, Avremel, I'm working on editing it.

Hanal: I understand you posting somewhat relevant articles, but this is ridiculous! You need to edit the articles you post. Keep only the important and interesting parts.

Anonymous said...

It is interesting that these people from lakewood are behaving like rebes "vos foren afn Medina" praving Tisch and collecting money.
My own rebbe rav Shimon Romm Rosh at RIETS was a talmid of R. Aron Kotler from the Kletzk days and among a select few who survived the war. Yet Rav Romm never visited the school in Lakewood even though he spent many Yamim Teyvim at the Capitol hotel in Lakewood. Once I remember R. Schustal was in our shul for mincha on Shabbes and Rav Romm told him that he never was in lakewood because its far awayor something like that.
Why is it that R. Kotler did not call his school the Kletzker yeshiva like the Mir, Telz ,Novograduck, Radin , Kaminetz, Ponoviesz, Grodna, Slobodka,Lomzha and Lublin all of which "continue" to exist in Israel or the USAI never understood the name thing ?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Seems that your Rebbe Rabbi Romm didn't get along with his Rosh Yeshivah. Never to visit, and to go to the "Sitra Achra", YU?

Anonymous said...

I have never been to Lakewood. But from reading a number of articles about it, the Yeshiva there sounds like a fascinating place. The Satmarer monthly in Yiddish DER BLIK had a great article describing the yeshiva and its structure. there are dozens of chaburoth in various Mikzaoth Hatorah. I think the school may have some slackers but clearly thousands learn full time.
It also seems that now there is new attention being given to halacha Lemaase and many chaburoth exist in those mikzaoth. They are also bringing Rav Shlomo Miller from Toronto to head the halacha program in Lakewood.
As we all see in recent years a community has developed there too with all the issues and problems associated witha community.
Perhaps Lubavitch could copy lakewood. Just as Laekwood copied lubavittch in Kiruv. Why not open a serious Kollel-Yeshiva "al chasidi" for all chassidim with chaburoth in Nigle, halacha and Dach. Why not appoint a staff of roshim representing Chabad, Klusenberg, Ger, Vishnitz etc.
I bet that after 10 years it would have a student body of hundreds of Talmidim.

Anonymous said...

Kurenitzer -

Re Hungarian Jewry - informative post. Perhaps you can also post re Hungarian Jewry and zionism - the image and the reality.

You say you haven't been in Lakewood. Okay. Ihr zent eingeladen tzu bazuchen dem ihr hakaydesh bikorov.

Have you ever been to places like Kiryas Joel and New Square, by the way ?

"It is interesting that these people from lakewood are behaving like rebes "vos foren afn Medina" praving Tisch and collecting money." - Roshei Yeshivas going around and collecting to funds to keep their yeshivas going is not new. That's why R. Elchonon, R. Boruch Ber, R. Shimen Shkopp, R. Meir Shapiro and others came to America and stayed there for long periods (for months at least, sometimes more than a year). So travelling for a weekend is being away from the yeshiva much less than R. Boruch Ber going to America for a year and half.

"Why is it that R. Kotler did not call his school the Kletzker yeshiva like the Mir, Telz ,Novograduck, Radin , Kaminetz, Ponoviesz, Grodna, Slobodka,Lomzha and Lublin all of which "continue" to exist in Israel or the USA I never understood the name thing ? "

Good question. I don't have inside information, but will try to answer the question anyway. I think that Rav Aharon, after arriving in the USA, was first concentrating on hatzolo work for a while. Only later was he invited to become a Raysh Kayllel in White Plains, NY, and some of the talmidim from there later went to Lakewood. So it wasn't a simple continuation from Kletzk, so he didn't call it such. Anyway, I assume Kletzk was mostly, if not exclusively a Yeshive for bochurim, while BMG was and is mostly a kayllel for yungeleit - in which studies would be on a higher level than a bochurim Yeshive. So to reflect that, it was called BMG, govoah meaning a higher, more advanced type of institution. Limayseh, however, they still use the name Kletzk at times, e.g. when they send out postcards re the yohrzeit of RAK. The postcards say 'iggud talmidei Kletzk' as well as Lakewood-BMG.

Anonymous said...

Kurenitzer you are way off the mark with your analysis of Hungarian Jewry.Neologs and assimilationists existed from the beginning i.e Chasam sofers time, nobody was calling them 'steadfast'
The other kehillas that broke away were very steadfast. A little know fact wiped out by Hitler WAS that Hungary had many more yeshivas than in Lita.While Poland was losing it's youth to Secular movements Orthodoxy in HUNGARY was holding it's own and thriving.Russian Jewry was not functioning despite the couple of thousand Lubavitchers most Jews were Secular including many Lubavitcher, nobody is blaming them because under the communists it was almost impossible.
Another point:Many of the Polish survivors did not remain religous after the war, while most of the people who were religous in pre war Hungary remained so afterwards

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

anonymous, why not back up your words at least somewhat and give yourself a name? I'm sure you're proud and confident of your statements, so why not back them with a name?

Anonymous said...


it's all in the perception. Ask a Litvisher and he'll tell you otherwise. However, I think you're repeating kurenitzer's words in your own argument; That most of the religious were from marmures and transylvania, not from Hungary.

Anonymous said...

About Hungarian frumkayt. The previuos writer says Hungarian Jewry (Orthodox ) was holding its own.
Please explain wht the Satmarer rebbe Reb Yoel demanded a new teilung from the Ashkenazi Orthodox in the 1920's. In Kluizenberg the Hasidics actually deserted the orthodx community . they did this in Popa , Ujhely and other places as well. As these western orthodx communities were becoming quit modern themselves.In western Hungary many of the Orthodox communities were composed of children of Shomre Shabbaes who legally had the right to remain in the orthodx community , so they did. But these people were hardly religious.The students at the Neolog National rabbinical seminary (still functioning today) in Hungary were all yeshiva dropouts who elected to become neolog rabbiners(see Leopold Grunwald for this documentation)
Gymnasiums for Jews existed even in a place like Munkatch and its principal represented the local Jews in the Czech parliament ( Czechoslovakia was a democratic state) not the rav or some other kanoi.So the local jews elected a Zionist to represent them !Even places like Siget and Marmorash produced frum gedolim like Elie Weisel and David Halivni (both fine people but hardly frum). You are confusing Soviet Russia with Lithuania and the Kressy (see my previous blog). Lithuania had an orthodox school system and even a orthodox high school in Telz.The Tiffereth Bachurim consisting of orthodx working young men had hundreds of members across the republic of Lithuania supported by the Rayaatz.
The average Hungarian baal habois outside of Marmorash and carpatho-Russ ws clean shaven spoke a smattering of Yiddish and knew little of Chassiduth.Indeed in many ways he was closer to the Yekkes in berlin than to a frume Yid in Cracow or Nevel.
Indeed Hungarian towns had yeshivas. Look at Fuchs 2 volume work and you will see that most of them were small places of 20-30 bachurim.How many branches did Novoradok have in Lita and White Russia? How many ?How amny radomsker yeshivos were there in Poland. Did not the Slonimer, Koidenower, stoliner all have yeshivas in Polish White Russia ?
As a Gerer Chasid told me that he was in Moscow in 1940 on his way to Japan, h met Lubavitcher chasidim there in the Choir Synagogue. He told me that in Poland he never met azelche frume Yiddn !
Neologs did not exist from the time of the Hatam Sofer as an orientation they started in 1860 the same time the Orthodox party started.. Most of Hungarian jewry was not Orthodox, it was Neolog or even worse assimilated and intermarried. One reads that in 1944 the Chuch attempted to save these Meshumoddim etc. They represented a sizeable group or sub group of Hungarian jewry. Friends ! in Lita there was all most no intermarriage. Meshumodim were a rareity in Poland and Lithuania. Not so in Holy Hungary.As one critic so aptly described Hungary "the Land of shtreimel and Shmad " extremes frumkayt and assimilation.I could go on but nothing beats a little reading. Pick up any book about Jews in Hungary in the 20th century and you will note what I mean.
Finally a word about Holocaust survivors. My father from the Vilna area was under German imprisionment from Nov. 1939 to May 1945. My mother from Lithuania was under Nazi inslavement from July 1941 until April 1945. The Hungarian Jews were at most in Nazi camps from May 1944 until May 1945. they missed 1 Passover, my father missed 5 they missed 48 shabbosim , my father missed 250 Shabbosim.. I'll leave it at that. If you can;t see the distinction I am lost.

Anonymous said...

This is why we need you on the blog!
Thanks for that, and all your, comment(s).

ליפא שנילצער said...

אלע שונאים זאלען פלאצען, אין אלע פריינט א פרייליכן חנוכה

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Shkoyuchhhhhhh, Der Yid!