We spoke recently about the many "Milchomes" that the late Ponovizher Rosh Yeshiva waged. Many of you would think that only those on the "left," or people that were out of the realm, were the recipients of his ire. The author here documents the many wars that were waged against people of his very own circles as well, and all because they would not subjugate themselves to the Daas Torah of one man.
Rav Shach's monopoly on "daas Torah"
57 comments:
HT:
1. Who is the author?
2. Whats the name of the book?
3. Where is it sold?
4. When was it published?
5. I read a few pages. From what I see so far, much of what he writes is HIS opinion. That is obvious.
6. Rarely does he back up his statements with any factual source or reference.
Again, I did not read everything yet, but from what I have read, it seems that most of his stuff is one mans negative opinion and view of things, and not necessarily actual facts or other peoples opinion.
So yeh, basically it seems like a crock full of, um, lets say fertilizer?
What do you think Tzig?
Hey Tzig-WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU? Klal Yisroel is still shaking from last week's tragedy AND we're in the 3 weeks and you want to start fighting again??
who wrote this ?
This from the Braun fellow a Mizrachi guy who just published a book on the Chazon Ish.
Interesting to note that a Lubavitcher such as yourself who bring this publication as an implied slight against Rav Shach for being considerd the only daas torah, while Lubavitch is full of this theme:The Lubavitcher Rebbe is nossi hador, moshiach etc.Self centered around themselves.I guess people don't realize how subjective they are
the BEST thing since swiss cheese. Yisbareru veyislabnu - the truth shall prevail.
Lubavitch (Rabaim) never imposed their will - ma she ain kain other hooligans bilvush godol hador behind the scenes are the biggest mecharer riv.
Yechi the truth
"Lubavitch (Rabaim) never imposed their will -"
Well, how did they attain the status "nosi hador"?
who decided in Rayatz's time with Chofetz Chaim.R'Chaim Ozer, Imrei Emes, who was "nosi hador"?
Yoni, the difference is that a) r.Shach's "daas toyro" was not supported by sources; b) driven by hatred, no matter how you try to pack it.
Who is nosi hador is decided by Hashem and revealed through His servants. No one (of respectable status) claimed Chofetz Chaim or Imrei Emes or r.Chaim Ozer Grodzensky was nosi hador.
Nosi Hador is a title used in the context of responsibility to give, to show, to lead, to be responsible for... and the facts speaks for itself
Godol hador for many means, to fight to retain that status in the eyes of everyone under all circumstances and the facts speak for itself.
this book the BEST thing in the world...
So, who is the 'Nosi Hador' today...?
Savage said "the BEST thing since swiss cheese. Yisbareru veyislabnu - the truth shall prevail."
I can definitely hear the Swiss cheese analogy given the similarity that they are both filled with holes, and stink. and both are made from spoiled milk.
"other hooligans bilvush godol hador behind the scenes are the biggest mecharer riv."
Yup we can all smell and OT high school kid from miles away.
Listen child, your starting out, so let me tell, you its gonna be hard out there as you get older. Being a Lubavitcher, getting kicked around and laughed at, its not easy. Why do you think they're always getting drunk?
a bissel swiss cheese and iced apple flavoured Smirnoff a mechaya. the BEST thing in the world.
snag-wake up from your tifn ,misnagdishn shlof and recognize that Adoneinu Reb Shmuely Boteach is the nosie hador. He does the best shiddychim within Lubavitch while he fraternizes with the hefker yungn of Hollywood.He has cutting edge politicians and entertainers at his beck and call as he manages to hob-nob with the ziknei hahassidim in Lubavitch shebeLubavitch.The world is in awe of him.Lubavitch loves him.So turn on your snag Tv and tune in to the new nosie hador!
"No one (of respectable status) claimed Chofetz Chaim or Imrei Emes or r.Chaim Ozer Grodzensky was nosi hador"
My friend,I don't want to get into a fight which brings no toeles.I will tell you, though, that in the time of the aforementioned greats, nobody,nobody at all,besides a few Lubavitchers, and even that is pushing it, thought that Rayyatz, was "nosi hador"
Besides for "nosi hador" being a term that was unknown, since the "reish galusa" in Babylon,1500 years ago.The Rebbe coined this term.All,I"m showing you is that Lubavitchers subjectively decided that their rebbes were "nesiei hador".If so, how can you have any claims against other groups who think their rebbes/rosh yeshivas are the "gedolei hador"?
People have terrible negios, biases.But the worst kind of bias is someone not honest enough to admit to their own "negios"
While we are at it, reading the comments at this site : http://www.give2gether.com/projects/help-support-leiby-kletzky/ takes away the cheishek to get into silly partisan "my leader was greater than yours" fights.
Besides, it's boiling in Brooklyn.I guess in Monsey, it's much cooler or the passion/hate is much greater....
Tzig thank you for this wonderful post lekovod the 3 weeks. Im sure this will help mashiach come quickly.
"Besides for "nosi hador" being a term that was unknown, since the "reish galusa" in Babylon,1500 years ago.The Rebbe coined this term."
Howabout rashi, chukas
משה הוא ישראל וישראל הם משה,
לומר לך שנשיא הדור הוא ככל הדור, כי הנשיא הוא הכל
or midrash rabba
מרדכי שקול בדורו כמשה בדורו
or zohar
אתפשטותא דמשה בכל דרא ודרא
These are all inyonim you're unfamiliar with, I suppose.
Incidentally, "Nosi" is not a title given to the LR by his "fans". The LR was the only gadol of his kind in the history of klal yisroel since Moshe Rabbeinu, in that he was concerned for, and helped bepoel, yidden from across the planet, including yidden who were totally lost. There is no comparison between LR and any other gadol at all.
The Rayatz played the same role, although it was on a more limited scale. But the Rayatz alone was responsible for keeping the yidden in soviet russia alive begashmius veruchnius.
So too in the US. The Rayatz set up yeshivos throughout the northeast and sent bochurim around the country to look for yidden that nobody knew of or cared about. He sent shluchim to EY and north africa and continued to work for soviet jewry even though he and his surviving family were safe.
This is what earned the Rayatz and the later the LR the title of Nosi.
No other "gadol" has earned the right to touch that title. Halevai we should see a Nosi among today's gedolei yisroel, although I think the chances are fading fast.
"The LR was the only gadol of his kind in the history of klal yisroel since Moshe Rabbeinu,"
Quite bombastic, don't ya think?
I mentioned on the last thread of this nature that the "milchamos" of REMMS have been set aside and ignored by pretty much everyone of any note in the Yeshiva world. From dealings with Lubavitch to all-but-ignoring a 23 year old ikul against R. Steinsaltz it does seem that today's gedolim have moved on.
That said, some sort of explicit clarification is owed to the larger frum world; are those "piskei din" now null and void? Were they ever in any real tokeif at all? Is that corner of the "Torah World" ready to own up to the Bizui Kovod, Ona'as Devarim and, in not a few cases, deprivation of livelihood (which ChaZaL have likened to murder) brought about by this individual?
the paragraph where he lists every sect that r shach fought with describes it the best.
however much you dislike the LR or Even the satmar, you can never put together even a fraction of a fraction of a list like that.
bottom line is R' Shach was the bal machlokes of the dor. a man who brought strife, sina and tragedy to klal yisroel. may we learn from him what not to be.
Even if RMMS was the "Nosi HaDor", his legacy is tarnished every day by those that claim he was/is.
Frankly, if someone is so great, there should be no need to shout it out all the time. It should "speak" for itself. It is apparent that the Lubavitchers are insecure and this has hurt their cause, and has injured the memory and legacy of their 7th Grand Rabbi. Shame on them.
"The LR was the only gadol of his kind in the history of klal yisroel since Moshe Rabbeinu"
YUK. If you are not an (overt) meshichists, then what do the Meshichists think.
"Frankly, if someone is so great, there should be no need to shout it out all the time. It should "speak" for itself. It is apparent that the Lubavitchers are insecure and this has hurt their cause, and has injured the memory and legacy of their 7th Grand Rabbi. Shame on them."
Truer words have not been written about Lubavitch in a long time.
Thos Lubavitchers who coneded that the LR was the "nusi", but also admit that he died... who do they think the current "nussi" is?
How come Lubavitchers are always trying very hard to convince people to do things the LUBAVITCH,way, when other rabbis believe that one need not or in some cases may not follow the Lubavitch path.
How does that jive with the implication of this post that Rav Shach felt everyone needed to follow his path.
Some examples of the LUBAVITCH customs being foisted upon others:
*Cholov yisroel:Chabad'niks are always preaching how it's ossur, and trying to convince everyone, though many rabbonim accept R'Moshe Feinsteins ruling on the subject.
*How come Chabadniks are always foisting their Nusach hatefilla on others, going as fat as davening Nusach Chabad in front of the amud in non Lubavitch shuls,AND, the Rebbe ruling that one may change from nusach Ashkenaz, which by the way is the original custom followed by all Ashkenazi Jews for many hundreds of yeaRS,or nusach Sefard to Chabad nusach,BUT NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND???!!!.Does that not smack of "it's my way or the highway"???
*Why will Chabad foist their more modern dress code on other chasidim who become Chabad??
There are so many of this type that when it's not done, such as in the case of Twersky, son of the Rachmastriveh Rebbe, who kept the chasidic levush for himself and kids it an anomaly and excuses are needed such as "the rebbe told him to keep the levush so his grandfather, the tahn rebbe, not be angered".
I think that Chabad is the epitome of "our way is the only, true way"
Shua,
I am not Lubavitch, but I have never, ever been pushed to take on their customs. EVER!!!!
RE: cholov yisroel and Rav Feinstein's p'sak. His p'sak was meant for people who lived very far from areas where they could not buy CV. Not for people who live in frum communities who have access to it but choose not to. I was told that an out of town yeshiva asked the Rav the same question and Rav Feinstein paskened that for Chinuch the Rosh Hayeshiva must serve CV to their talmidim.
RE: Nusach Ari. My rabbi, who got smicha from BMG told me that when a person decides to change his nusach from nusach ashkenaz to nusach s'fard or to nusach ari, he/she is not permitted to revert to nusach ashkenaz.
Foist their own dress code???? What planet are you on???
RMF held, one may switch from Sefard to Ashkenaz, but not the other way around.
BTW, BMG gives semicha?
Regarding R' Moshe's heter for Cholov Yisrael, check this out (end of article):
http://www.torah.org/advanced/weekly-halacha/5760/vayikra.html
What always amazed me about RMF's heter was that, after spending many pages in Igros Moshe defending the practice he closes by saying in essence "those that do so have what to rely on but anyone who takes his life seriously will be stringent." That is called "damning with faint praise" in rhetorical circles. How the larger Olam allows C"S in light of this is beyond my understanding.
Anon:5:59 pm,
Either, your "rov" is no musmach of BMG, or you are a Chabad'nik.
R'Moshe, rules that one can change back to nusach Ashkenaz, and actually is surprised, how the first people who davened Nusach Sfard did it.
I think with your "quote" from your "bmg rav" you are showing your hand.It's clear to anyone with the tiniest brain, that nusach Ashkenaz, davened by Rishoinim like Rashi and the Baaley Tosfos, and by Raban shel kol bnei hagola the Rema, does not "need" any heter to be used.The ones who changed are the ones who need proof.aS CHAZAL already said "kol hameshaneh yado al hatachtonah".
And yes I know the Munkatcher has a teshuva, not like the Chasam Sofer,andstill kol hameshaneh yado al hatachtoino
Please, don't give me your "understanding" of R'Moshe's psak regarding Cholov yisroel.
One Chabad rabbi,Rabbi Moshe Landau, from Bnei Brak, actually claims that non cholov yisroel, is worse than an issur deoraysa.
Why are you ashamed of being a Lubavitcher,btw?
...according to rav yitzock ginsburgh shlita there are 10 dorot ...1 the besth...9 rmms and 10 moshiach...
Dear Yoel:
You don't want to get into fight but you do. And one of the reasons that you sadly seem not to answer what I wrote. Lubavitcher Rebbe used the term "nosi hador", and he is the figure with enough of authority to do so. Other people did not use it. So it stays unchallenged. If you dismiss Lubavitcher Rebbe as an authority, and then there is no reason to discuss anything further on the subject.
Shua:
Of course you don't need anybody's understanding of Rabbi Moshe's psak on Cholov Isroel to be free interpret it as your heart desires regardless of what the actual psak is about.
RMF writes: but anyone who takes his life seriously will be stringent."
oh wow an actual 'chumra' from RMF z'l
Itchmier
"and has injured the memory and legacy of their 7th Grand Rabbi. Shame on them."
frankly, I don't think the LR legacy is tarnished, I see a total different phenomenon.I was this friday in Ichud Colony and I saw 2 souls of Satmsar stem discussing a footnote of the LR on the Shiurim Besefer Hatanya regarding Bechira, I guess that facts are selective.
Anon
"Thos Lubavitchers who coneded that the LR was the "nusi", but also admit that he died... who do they think the current "nussi" is"
there are sources in Nach and Yerushalmi that as long your leadership is still felt and followed you are still the Nosi Hador, as a non Lubavicher you can choose a different path, but the Lubavicher chosid has his tree where to lean on.
Anon 1159 am,
What had two Satmar men discussing a footnote got to do with, whether the memory of the Lubavitcher Rebbe has been tarnished in some quarters???
It's clear that many people have a problem understanding some of the stuff Lubavitchers do.Especially what the Meshichists do, but not only.Since Lubavitchers back themselves up by quoting the Rebbe as the source for all they do, any starnge behaviour by Lubavitchers tarnishes the Rebbes legacy.
Got it?
Not so difficult to understand, is it?
"there are sources in Nach and Yerushalmi that as long your leadership is still felt and followed you are still the Nosi Hador, as a non Lubavicher you can choose a different path, but the Lubavicher chosid has his tree where to lean on."
Interesting.
Where is the source?
Shua
"*Cholov yisroel:Chabad'niks are always preaching how it's ossur, and trying to convince everyone, though many rabbonim accept R'Moshe Feinsteins ruling on the subject."
Every morning after I smell my coffe, I see a new dead rat thrown at the door of Chabad. Today I realized that chabad who are maligned for being Kaliim Veraikim are accused of keeping strong a simple halachicic decision of the Shulchan Orech.Genarations upon Genarations no ashkanazic posek wrote any Kula on that subject. So comes along a new idiot on the block, that chabadniks are refraining from Choluv Akum is going against Reb Moshe and they are shoving down some new invented Chabad mivtza of Cholov Yisroel.
The Lubavicher Rebbe Ziecher Tzadik veKodesh Livroche, was probably the most respectful for the gadlus and pesak of Reb Moshe, out side of the Misnagdic world,(there were the bBoyaner, Kapishnitzer,Sekolyer, but they had then some little shtiblech) and this idiot found in that a new angle for chabad hate. Many times I think that the Tzig site should change his venue, but after seeing this kind of venom that is out there against Chabad, I think that it is important to expose them.
Chaim
What will happen if u see the source? will it change your mind? why should I be oiver on Lifnie Ivar to be Macshil you in Learning torah Lekanter?
Chaim
My IQ is not as huge as yours and I did not get it
Got it????
To Shua,
My rabbi is a musmach of BMG and btw he also has his issues with Chabad. However, the difference between my rabbi and people like yourself is that he does not go out to denigrate chabad. As a matter of fact, he has tremendous respect for the work that Chabad does even though he may disagree with their views on certain issues.
You don't have to be a Chabadnik to support Chabad.
Why are you NOT ashamed of being a sonei yisroel? Shame on you.
To Shua,
Read from R. Moshe, z'tl himself:
(Thank you Yoni)
"Regarding the milk of government regulated dairies in our countries, there are definitely grounds for permissibility to say that they are not included in Chazal's prohibition, as we see that many are lenient in this due to dochak (pressing circumstances) in many places. However, in a place that chalav yisrael is obtainable, even though it requires a bit more effort or is a bit more expensive, it is not proper to be lenient in this. One should purchase chalav yisrael."
***
In recent years, a question has arisen concerning the kashruth of some milk-producing cows due to surgical procedures performed on their stomachs for various reasons. According to the available information, many chalav yisrael companies are now using only cows which do not undergo this procedure.
Shua
"*Why will Chabad foist their more modern dress code on other chasidim who become Chabad??
There are so many of this type that when it's not done, such as in the case of Twersky, son of the Rachmastriveh Rebbe, who kept the chasidic levush for himself and kids it an anomaly and excuses are needed such as "the rebbe told him to keep the levush so his grandfather, the tahn rebbe, not be angered"."
It is interesting how your hybrid chabad breeds some inconsistent viewpoints.
RMF has a famous teshuva that there is no reason to dress in the old garb of Jewish Europe, then why are you writing of this dress code problem? if Chabad would cling to their dress code then you would argue they are going against Reb Moshe,
Either u are a typical snag Amheoretz or Sinah Mekakel Hashurah, and your mind is so warped in hate that is does not detect inconsistencies
"RMF has a famous teshuva that there is no reason to dress in the old garb of Jewish Europe,"
Source??
You probably mean the teshuvah about someone who wore regular clothing and now wants to change to a long suit.That he considers "mechzy keyohera", not someone who used to wear Jewish levush and now decides to throw it away.Incidentally, the same Lubavitchers who get rid of the to Yiddishe levush also get rid of their peyos.And it's interesting to note that today it's very common for Lubavitchers to trim and shave their beards, which for a Lubavitcher once upon a time was "yehareg ve'al yaavor"
It's a slippery slope.First you say that traditional levush means nothing, than you cut of your peyos, than your beard
Next step?
Footsteps, like one of the chozrim
Actually, peyos never were big in Byelorussia, where Chabad is from.
And yes, the beard for Lubavichers remains yehareg ve'al yaavor.
Shua
".And it's interesting to note that today it's very common for Lubavitchers to trim and shave their beards, which for a Lubavitcher once upon a time was "yehareg ve'al yaavor"
I will give you more interesting scenario, a(many) Satmar and Rachmisterivker(look in Lipas video in Uman) yungerman(yungerliet) with all the satmatr/Radhmistrivker traditional garb left his wife for a shikse, and is mechalel shabos,(I believe all the above is Yeherag veal Yavor in Satmar and Rachmistrivke)
I am thinking what big sin did I do this shabos kodesh to meet Monday morning a ferd like you, (the only sin I did was not visiting the Monticello Raceway to see the live horses competing, Vehu Rachum Yechaper Oveoin
Shua
"Source??"
why provide for a idiot sources
"I will give you more interesting scenario, a(many) Satmar and Rachmisterivker(look in Lipas video in Uman) yungerman(yungerliet) with all the satmatr/Radhmistrivker traditional garb left his wife for a shikse, and is mechalel shabos,(I believe all the above is Yeherag veal Yavor in Satmar and Rachmistrivke) "
The guy in the Lipa video does not wear any levush.Don't lie.
Levush is one safeguard but not foolproof.
Interesting you have to resort to calling me nasty names.I feel the ahavas yisroel
"RMF writes: but anyone who takes his life seriously will be stringent."
oh wow an actual 'chumra' from RMF z'l"
Well, actually he was "tipping the cards" that his "heter" was an extremely lenient kulah and that the normative Halacha is not like this. AFA "chumros" go, don't even get started on Eiruvim in NYC!
Shua
Idiot,
did I say he is wearing now? he admits that by now he is a official Mechales shabos R"L, but he comes from Jewland with the most stringent dress code, and it did not restrain him one iota.
Shua
I am no Lubavicher I have the luxury to call a spade a spade and a Ferd a Ferd
>What always amazed me about RMF's heter was that, after spending many pages in Igros Moshe defending the practice he closes by saying in essence "those that do so have what to rely on but anyone who takes his life seriously will be stringent."
How do you translate baal nefesh as "anyone who takes his life seriously?" "Baal nefesh" = "a spiritual person."
Last I checked there's no chiyuv midoraisa or derabbonon to be a baal nefesh. Furthermore, taking on the practices of a baal nefesh doesn't make one a baal nefesh, so unless you are a baal nefesh being machmir is neither here nor there. He said a baal nefesh ought to be machmir, not someone whose head explodes at the thought of not doing something which is muttar while a chumra exists.
>How the larger Olam allows C"S in light of this is beyond my understanding.
Why did RMF add this? Probaby, to get the kannoim off his back. As you said, he spends pages defending the practice.
That said, it is true that it's ridiculous to have to defend sticking to cholov yisroel.
As far as dress code, do you think the world thinks that Chabad are dressing "more modern?" They can't tell the difference. Matisyahu looks like a rabbi from the 1600s to them.
IS there daat Torah except for one.
Did the Lubavitcher rebbe ever seek counsel from other gedolm before he formualted policy for klal israel ?
Mike Powers
"Did the Lubavitcher rebbe ever seek counsel from other gedolm before he formualted policy for klal israel ?"
did the Chofetz chaimask someone?
Did Reb chaim Oizer sask some one?
Did The Imrie Emes ask some one?
Did the RYD of Belz sk someone?
Obviously they felt this is what torah wants, but non of the above gedolim had a goon squad to break legs and a well oiled (by the ungarishe riechman) media that has 1 agenda, to ostracize gedolim.
"And yes, the beard for Lubavichers remains yehareg ve'al yaavor"
A nice percentage of Crown Heights youth and older trim .Beis Shmuel members for example.
What happens is there is no respect for traditional chasidishe garb, peyos, long clothing etc.
You end up up with Modern Orthodox.
Now, Yeshiva University is MO with very ehrliche students, but for a chasidic group wearing jeans
,no peyos, trimmed or no beard, it's downhill.
Funny thing, is that the anonymous poster, constantly calling me names, needs me to tell him the importance of yiddishe levush??
I guess to "defend" he"ll say what ever it takes
Shua
"
A nice percentage of Crown Heights youth and older trim .Beis Shmuel members for example."
how big is that percentage?
did you hire Zogby or Rasmussen? to check the Beard Sizes in CH.
I don't see no Iker in Yidishe Levush or in Yidisher Shprach, it is as important as Lukshen Kugel.
"I don't see no Iker in Yidishe Levush or in Yidisher Shprach, it is as important as Lukshen Kugel."
So an anonymous fellow sees no "ikker" in yiddishe levish.
Big deal.
Make sure you continue to have birthday parties.That's is a big "ikker".
"Make sure you continue to have birthday parties.That's is a big "ikker"."
An even bigger "ikker" is making sure you marry into money because it is an issur med'oraisa to work! Oh, but didn't your prospective FIL have to engage in that forbidden activity on your behalf? Isn't that Mitzvah haba beavaira?
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