Of course that should read Harav Yosef Zalmen Bloch. The scion of the illustrious family of the same name- synonymous with the "Great and Holy Yeshiva of Telz" since its founding a century and a quarter ago has not had a direct connection with that citadel of Torah for quite some time.
"One commenter there wrote that the same holds true for Monsey. Do you agree?"
Ah... But Bodner is doing all he can to boost Monsey. He is sponsoring 50% of any Litvish Kollel or Yeshiva that move to Monsey, and people are takeing him up on his offer.There is a Riverdale Kollel amongst others. Rabbi Shalom Zimmerman opened a Bais Medreash for top guys, and Rabbi Mutty Dick is trying to move to Monsey too!!
1.RYZB is a very great man. No one will ever argue that he is not fully leshem shamayim. 2.As far as the lavaya being in Lakewood....Um.. are you just waking up now? Lakewood has been the "rent a crowd" place for 5 years now. Every guy or any mosad that wants to make it on this planet needs to do some sort of something in Lakewood to get started. He rents his crowd and hes off with a bash! 3. Gimel tamuz....yes R'Shneur ZTL's yartzeit. Zechusoi yagen aleinu
there are more telzer Alumini learning in Lakewood than any other yeshiva or town so why go to bp
Also reb chain stien son R' shmuel Zalmon has a yeshiva in lakwood
he wanted the levaya there because when rav chaim was in theeast coast that was were he davened learned etc but his building etc area was not equiped for a levaya of such magnitude
For historical accuracy: Reb Chaim Stein was in Samackan during the war, and there he befriended Yomtif Ehrlich who was a "nunte yedid". Also, there he became very close with Reb Mordche Tzukerman z"l, the "other" ayd kidushen, at the Brisker chasunas.
to all those who commented here "zai azoi git" to click on the link and read the whole post and comment on my blog as well. You'll find that the iqar nequdah had little to do with Telshe.
The Telz-Brooklyn connection is a "major news story." Another major news story is that der alter kotter in my back yard just finished his "Meow Mix." Who's the commissar in charge of news?Is there an update on the mid-summer harvest in the Ukraine? Wasn't yesterday sort of an important day in Lubavitch history?Nito kein neias fun der front?
There are hespeidim at Telz tonight. I wonder if the "hanhalas hayeshiva", i.e. the anti-Gifter faction that staged the coup against Zalman last year, will use the occasion to solidify their hold in some way. After all, without R' Chaim, they have no respected figurehead to use as a front man.
Deaths are important markers in Jewish life, but the orthodox media becuase of self imposed restrictions writes about little other news besides deaths and amrriages. Of course petirahs of rabbonim are noteworthy, but there is real news going on i Israel about the future of the Jewish peopel and Israel with little reporting in the Charedi media. Is there no other news to report in the uS etc, is evryone fast asleep and no thing newsworthy is going on.
Telz is dead today for the very reason it had its heyday in the 50s and 60s. Choice. There were few options then. Now there are plenty. This is why they had alumni like the Mukatcher and Spinker Rebbes and the afformentioned Struckess bearing R Yankel Horowitz AB"D DTelz Rabusi
How is the Jewish world to be affected by who ever is the new rosh of Telz ? From what I heard Rav Stein was not the real head of the yeshiva either and others are contesting the baaylus of the school.
schneur said... "How is the Jewish world to be affected by who ever is the new rosh of Telz ?"
In israel they have gedolim! with pump and circumstance, who support the 'parties' and the party trumps them in return, note no other gedolim worldwide makes it! like their gedolim!!! why?
n israel they have gedolim! with pump and circumstance, who support the 'parties' and the party trumps them in return, note no other gedolim worldwide makes it! like their gedolim!!! why?"
Anon4:27 that's because Israel is the center of the world and that most certainly includes the Jewish world.My apologies to Lakewood,Gateshead,and Antwerpen but that's the way it is.After the Holocaust, this is reality even with all the Israeli political parties and their newspapers.
Anon4:27 that's because Israel is the center of the world and that most certainly includes the Jewish world.My apologies to Lakewood,Gateshead,and Antwerpen but that's the way it is.After the Holocaust, this is reality even with all the Israeli political parties and their newspapers.
You mean the Telzer shtiebel Chassidus בנשיאות אדמו"ר מטעלזא ר' יעקב
Since that supposedly Litvish place has a Hassidic leader, where are the Hassidic shtiebels with Misnagdim over them? Stupid naive liberalism to put a Hassidic leader over them. We have seen what happened to Vien, as discussed here previously. No normal Litvishe place should appoint a Hassid as their leader.
They should remember what the Tayreh says לא תוכל לתת עליך איש נכרי
for those who wanted to know who is leading telz now: 1. Rav A.C. Levin is acting Rosh HAYeshiva (he now is Rosh of both Cleveland and Chicago). The other Roshei Yeshiva are Rav S. Eisenberger and Rav D. Goldberg. Rav S. Shapiro is Mahgiach and Rosh Kollel Rav A.Y. Sorotzkin is Rosh Yeshiva in exile. Ziggy G. is still official fat troublemaker
Shtoltzer litvak: In the post-holocaust world you're for the most part correct. The problem is that the Litvakes to a great extent speak Yiddish poorly or very Amerikanizirt,and view the Hassidim with their fluent Galicianer Yiddish and yiddishe levush as the "real deal".They are therefore "machniye" themselves before such examples of unadulterated pre-war yiddishkeit.That's why Lakewood likes Satmer as well{money of course plays a part].You have to start from the ground up and create a Litvishe educational infrastructure that will be true to the Littvishe mesorah including Yiddish. That's a tall order as we see in Lakewood.But I agree that it should be done.You have to bring melamdim from the yisuv hayoshon to teach littvishe yiddish beccause outside of Lubavitch there's almost no one in the US who can speak it in an acceptable fashion.Hassidim preserved their mesorah,we didn't.
Nor do khasidim abandon their old neighborhoods like the Litvaks do. Hence my post.
maybe this last point has something to do with the Litvisha Ben Torahs aversion to miskhar and the professions. Without making boatloads of money Broooklyn has become unaffordable. Khsaidim OTOH have no economic need to leave Brooklyn
OTC. I think that we preserved it precisely by not overemphasizing the preservation of yiddish. Absent Torah one needs external trappings of clothing, language and diet to feel a national identity. But the Litvaks hew to the Saadia gaon maxim of אין אומתנו אומה אלא תתורתה
Another L- The man. The only MAN for the job is R Osher Kalmanovich Shlita of Mir. He has R Malkiel's ear. If given a chance he will get it done. I would love to contact you and get things started.
Bray: You are right to a certain extent but not entirely. The Skverrer bli guzmeh have hundreds of kollel yungeleit many of whom are first class talmidei-chachamim.Satmer,too, has produced many fine learners and dayyonim.The same goes for Bobov and Vizhnitz.If it's only about learning then this,too,is teyreh,but it's not di teyreh fun der Liteh. That includes differences in derech halimud but it also includes a certain yishev hadaas and quietness which personified the Littvisher ben-Teyreh..Maybe it's a kind of tznius in how one leads his life.Anyone who knew some of the old Littvishe rabbonim fun dem freierdiken dor knows what I am talking about.Reb Moshe and Reb Yankev were examples of this but there were many more.In the modern world we call this the "culture" of a people which includes language and minhagim and the way people went about the business of everyday living.This "culture" in turn gave rise to the derech halimud that we know as the Litvisher derech.The "feier" in der Litte was well hidden from the spotlight of the outside world-perhaps too well hidden even from our own children and einiklech.The Littvishe derech fun der alter heim is almost extinct but perhaps something can still be salvaged.Who knows?
AnotherL - Although gedolim of yore resisted instituting Yiddish as the language in which Toire is taught things have changed. Precisely because we are not Chasidim and the frierdike ZL would not want us to be we can reevaluate the matzev. The Chazon Ish ZL allowed ivrit. R Elchonon ZL said to Mr Mendlowitz A"h(he insisted on that title) Di Teyre tor nit zayn di shifche fun yiddish. Even recenttly R Shmul Berenbaum ZL resisted R Osher Kalmanowitzes efforts. He's proceeding now to do as he desired with the gutheysung from RS's son. We are much stronger now. Concessions made years ago are no longer necessary. As an exreme demonstration look at all the old obsolete musty concessions still retained in Chaim Berlin that today are absurd.
Wow, I am encouraged to see what my post brought out here. Yasher keyach to Another Litvack and other supporters.
There are still some Litvaks with Yiddish proficiency. If you combine that with using recordings of gedaylim of the past, something can be salvaged. Ayn dovor aymed bifnei harotzeyn! אין דבר עומד בפני הרצון.
Another Litvack is spot on in his 11:16AM post, though he goes a bit too far, by saying we didn't preserve our mesorah. True with some Litvaks but there is a hard core that knows more Yiddish and has more mesayreh.
Keep up the straight thinking and brainstorming and im yirtzeh Hashem, there will be hope.
Shtoltzer/Sht.- How many Litvishe Roshives had careers by the Chasidim? Some of the all time greats. Rav Gustman ZL lubavitch. R Abbe Berman ZL Viznitz Monsey just to name 2. You draw up your own list. I don't think Telzer (emphasis on the midwestern pronunciation of the letter "Ahr") Minyan ever represented anything Telz-like or Litvish. How do you think R Avreml Ausband got away with murder being Mishanne and sending R M Gifter ZL packing. The Telshe Alumni didn't care. Large part of their crowd were the "Shmool gepaste Bekishe bendown" type.
I must add in the interest oof historical accuracy. Rav Gustman's career was somewhat brief. As told me by his talmid Rabbi Russ RG was frustrated that when he was to give his eary afternoon shiur the oilom was noch Farn Davnen. He went into the Rebbe who said "Tmimim zaynen limayle min hazman". That was it for RG. To be a fly on the wall. The look on his face must have been priceless
Nothing personal Tzig, but your loosing it man. I used to come here all the time and the oilam was knocking, banging it out here on an hourly basis. Guys would get crazy nasty and mean, keeping everyone's blood pumping and coming back for more. But now...yeh, I still pop buy every so often, only find stale posts motzei shabbos from a week ago, with scattered comments by drifters who've come by to see if anyone still alive here. Yeh, Hersel it was nice while it lasted. I guess everyone gets his 15 minutes.... As strange as it sounds, some get theirs, while they're anonymous.
Anony 12:02 the reason this blog is "losing it" is because there have been overt and subliminal messages that issues in Lubavitch can no longer be discussed here openly. The Lubavitch issue is the "reactor core" of this blog and if you "retire" it you get a "blob blog." You can gain some yardage from Belz-Telz and Brisk-Trisk but you cannot score a touchdown.Why spend some time thinking and composing a comment when the Oholei Torah boys who've davka been taught NOT to think will be allowed to mercillessly rake you over the coals based on a perceived "slight" to the Rebbe's reputation? TheTelz-BP connection is more important than Gimmel Tamuz in Lubavitch?Only when you're trying to avoid the real issues.
The fellow who brought a "raaye" from Lodz that a Chassidic city could have a Litvisher rav ( I presume he refers to Horav Eliyahu Chaim Meisels a Litviaher gadol) does not know his Modern Jbewish history . At least 50% if not more of the Jews in Lodz hailed from Lithuania and White Russia. Lodz was a tiny town until the mid 19th century. With the arrival of the Polish Industrial revolution , Lodz became the Manchester of Poland thousands of poor Litvishe Yidden came there to seek work. Thus they comprised a large portion of the Jewish population of Lodz. he city had a large kreiz of Litvishe Chassidim namely Slonim a Litvishe yeshiva started by a wealthy Litvishe Yid named Diskin and even after rav Meisels' death many of the members of the vaad Horabbonim there were Litvakes.Of course there were many Congress Peylsihe Yidden there too and Aleksander was close by and Ger had a large eylem there too. It is a davar yadua, that many large Polsih cities (I mean Congress Poland ) had Litvishe rabbonim for 2 reasons a. they were highly regarded as Lomdim, b. They were neutral in the constant war fare between various chassidc groups over rabbanus positions. So rather than actually give the job to lets say a Sokotchover man and diappoint the lets say Radomsker the job was given to a Litvak. In Warsaw too most of the rabbonim were if not true Litvakes then Misnagdim of peylishen opshtam. Rav Menachem Ziemba's election in the post WW1 period was a major breakthrough for the Chassidic community. One of their g edolim was elected to an offical rabbanus as a mmebr of the warsaw rabbinate.
I agree with anony Sunday, July 10, 2011 12:02:00 AM, and gragover rebbes rabbe. But just to add a point, this blog is dieing as we all can see because the moderator is very farshlufen lately and cus if you say anything that might slight chabad in any way he will delete you. great way to have a good healthy 2 sided debate.
So few Lithuanian Jews survived the 20th century in an Orthodox form that 100 years later it is difficult to reconstruct this great Jewish cultural center. First it was the haskallah, next Marxism and Zionism , then the First War, than the annexation of most of White Russia to the new Communist state and emigration to America and South Africa.Then the make bepatish - 90% of all Litvishe Yidden were killed in 1941-1945 Its a miracle that even in the 1930's the religious group were still a factor in Vilna and Kovna. After the War the Yeshiva people did not seek to do what the Satmarer or Bobover sought to recreate galicia or Hungary in fields besdies Torah study. Who even knows litvishe minhogim ? Now 40 years alter after the deaths of Rav henkin, rav Moshe etc , the yeshva world is totally submissive to the Hungarian chassidim , Note the silence in the yeshiva world about the Massorah in Lita about Metzitzah when this controversy broke several years ago. Nothing can save the Litvishe cultural heritage unless a few Hungarian decide to try it, as they are among the last who take Chaabd seriously too. I just finished reading RAV GIFTER and while he attempted to transmit the Telzer Teyere, there was no attempt to recreate a Litvishe kehillo leben.
To the Lito-Yiddish purists. Your seem to think that the only way they pronouned it was "Cheylem" as opposed to Choylem. There were other ways. The was a cross between ey and oy. The other way was "Chuylem". But not like the Hugarian Chawwwwwylem Please resist temptation to respond with Chelem jokes
thanks for letting me/us know about vaadharabanim on twitter he is so on target. about calling r` yankel horowitz as telz rav i think he wants to raise a certain point, he appears to be a man that grabs titles, no wonder his yeshiva is going down hill, he simply cannot balance the strokis part and the telz part of him.
he"ll end up like rav skuleh the sadnoveh rebbi who wears a spodik, but yet is a mashgiah in torah vdaas.
Bray, a few years ago on this very blog you revealed that you are not a litvak. so what's the deal with the "we".
Like so many other talmidim and alumni of the Yeshivisha velt my upshtam is not Litvish but my ethos and worldview are mostly that of my yeshiva and NOT that of my parents A'H.
BTW thanks for paying such close attention and halting kop. Who knew? Why don't I ever see you on my blog?
somebody had to pay for the shul of r` yankel horowitz, somebody had to appoint him as the rav there. i cannot understand the mind of these people to put up a chassidish strokis wearing person for a real litvish post.
unlike munkatch or spinka rebbi who happened to learn in the yeshiva, so they kept in close to them, they are talmidim like all the rest, chassidish or litvish, there are still talmidim of telz, but r` yankel horowitz he went a bit to far.
somebody had to pay for the shul of r` yankel horowitz, somebody had to appoint him as the rav there. i cannot understand the mind of these people to put up a chassidish strokis wearing person for a real litvish post.
r` yankel horowitz did nothing for telz in brooklyn, i"m sure he pusheh himself for the post, he turns now slowly the telz shul into a chassidic shul, the older generation will pass away, and telz will become a chassidic dynasty, just like rabbi katz did to vien or rabbi unger did to nitra. the younger generation of mispallim of telz is streimel.
Where are the "Telzer Yungeliet"? Nitra and vien were sabotaged at the Chinuch level. There's nothing being produced in Cleveland. RYH is only being reactive to the Matzev. Who knows maybe it'll reach a point that sans Struckess therell be no minyan.
i dont think so, if you"ll look intothe past history of r` yankel horowitz as stated in "vaadharabanim" on twitter (mentioned above) his father R` meilech did not wear strokis, neither did he have the desire to the rebbish shtick as his son has. now once you change you dont know when to stop, he can call himself yarchiv rebbi or rosh yeshivas beis meir but please not telz rav, whom are you kidding.
I don't have a big taaneh on the אדמו"ר מטעלזץ. If shaytim offered it to him, it is more the fault of those who chose him. He seems to be a nice man, and a shaymer Shabbos, doesn't carry in the street. So take it easy on him personally.
r` yankel horowitz did nothing for telz in brooklyn, i"m sure he pusheh himself for the post, he turns now slowly the telz shul into a chassidic shul, the older generation will pass away, and telz will become a chassidic dynasty, just like rabbi katz did to vien or rabbi unger did to nitra. the younger generation of mispallim of telz is streimel."
I nominate this post for the dumbest of the year and competition is fierce. R' Y. Horowitz has been Rav there for almost 30 years, is beloved by EVERY single mispallel, and single-handedly has kept the place going. Unfortunately, there are NO younger mispallelim and certainly not any chassidishe [other than one or two of his kids who show up sometimes.] narishe drivel!
77 comments:
Shkoyakh for the link.
One commenter there wrote that the same holds true for Monsey. Do you agree?
nah
there's no Telsher presence in Monsey, unless you count Yosef Zalman...
No I meant that Monsey is becoming a Moshav Zqanim for as far as Yeshivaleit are concerned.
BTW very clever double-entendre re-naming of my post here.
And THIS is what the Tzig posts lekovod Gimmel Tammuz?
patience. I'm sure that there is more coming before sheqeeah
sreiously, are you planning on posting anything for gimmel tammuz, should i check back later today?
sreiously, are you planning on posting anything for gimmel tammuz, should i check back later today?
Stop being a nudnik. It's hard to post traveling to and from the Ohel! ;-)
unless you count Yosef Zalman..."
ביטע טראכטן פאר'ן קאמענטירן, און שרייבן בכבוד'דיג, ווי עס פאסט פאר אידן יראי השם
Hirshl I'm dissapointed. Man is a Talmid Chochom Muflog. (This from one who enjoyed great kirvus from R M Gifter ZL mind you.)
Of course that should read Harav Yosef Zalmen Bloch. The scion of the illustrious family of the same name- synonymous with the "Great and Holy Yeshiva of Telz" since its founding a century and a quarter ago has not had a direct connection with that citadel of Torah for quite some time.
what disappointed you exactly? RYZB is not exactly a mainstream Telsher.
"One commenter there wrote that the same holds true for Monsey. Do you agree?"
Ah... But Bodner is doing all he can to boost Monsey. He is sponsoring 50% of any Litvish Kollel or Yeshiva that move to Monsey, and people are takeing him up on his offer.There is a Riverdale Kollel amongst others. Rabbi Shalom Zimmerman opened a Bais Medreash for top guys, and Rabbi Mutty Dick is trying to move to Monsey too!!
1.RYZB is a very great man. No one will ever argue that he is not fully leshem shamayim.
2.As far as the lavaya being in Lakewood....Um.. are you just waking up now? Lakewood has been the "rent a crowd" place for 5 years now. Every guy or any mosad that wants to make it on this planet needs to do some sort of something in Lakewood to get started. He rents his crowd and hes off with a bash!
3. Gimel tamuz....yes R'Shneur ZTL's yartzeit. Zechusoi yagen aleinu
Today was the third of Tammuz.
Menashe, that was really profound. inspirational and invigorating in fact.
The Tolner on the Rebbe
http://www.bhol.co.il/article.aspx?id=29482
there are more telzer Alumini learning in Lakewood than any other yeshiva or town
so why go to bp
Also reb chain stien son R' shmuel Zalmon has a yeshiva in lakwood
he wanted the levaya there because when rav chaim was in theeast coast that was were he davened learned etc but his building etc area was not equiped for a levaya of such magnitude
As for r yosef zalam
some people have said telse was down hill from the day re mottel kaz passed away
I say return the yeshiva to its origanal heirs I.e. r y.z. bloch and r y. v.katz
or buy them out and start rebuilding
(I don't know where I should post this).
For historical accuracy: Reb Chaim Stein was in Samackan during the war, and there he befriended Yomtif Ehrlich who was a "nunte yedid". Also, there he became very close with Reb Mordche Tzukerman z"l, the "other" ayd kidushen, at the Brisker chasunas.
Tzig, is the Tolner really a sincere fan of the Rebbe?
17 years today (?) that the Minsker wasn't allowed to speak in BMG.
On my blog a commenter claimed the levaya was moved to Lakewood for security reasons. Can anyone either corroborate or debunk this?
to all those who commented here "zai azoi git" to click on the link and read the whole post and comment on my blog as well. You'll find that the iqar nequdah had little to do with Telshe.
The Telz-Brooklyn connection is a "major news story." Another major news story is that der alter kotter in my back yard just finished his "Meow Mix." Who's the commissar in charge of news?Is there an update on the mid-summer harvest in the Ukraine? Wasn't yesterday sort of an important day in Lubavitch history?Nito kein neias fun der front?
Telshe- Brooklyn is takeh small potatoes. That Brooklyn is oisgeshpeelt for the Yeshivisha Oilem is news that hits with the force of a tsunami.
click on the link ותמצא נחת
strokis wearing reb yankel horowitz rosh yeshivas beis meir is the real telz rav in brooklyn.
The Lakewood police estimate well over 30k at the Levaya that is why it was in Lakewood.
RYZB is not exactly a mainstream Telsher."
Doesn't matter if he's not a mainstream meatball- whatever. He's still overqualified to at least throw him a "R".
bof as per what the family is saying reason why it was in Lakewood. Was so there will be a true kavod hatorah
I said as much in my post. Read it.
There are hespeidim at Telz tonight. I wonder if the "hanhalas hayeshiva", i.e. the anti-Gifter faction that staged the coup against Zalman last year, will use the occasion to solidify their hold in some way. After all, without R' Chaim, they have no respected figurehead to use as a front man.
Among emese chassidim Telz the concept (not the people) was long oisgespeelt everywhere. Ma raash ?
Deaths are important markers in Jewish life, but the orthodox media becuase of self imposed restrictions writes about little other news besides deaths and amrriages.
Of course petirahs of rabbonim are noteworthy, but there is real news going on i Israel about the future of the Jewish peopel and Israel with little reporting in the Charedi media.
Is there no other news to report in the uS etc, is evryone fast asleep and no thing newsworthy is going on.
Who is going to take over R'Chaims position in Telz?
What still exists in Cleveland?
Telz is dead today for the very reason it had its heyday in the 50s and 60s. Choice. There were few options then. Now there are plenty. This is why they had alumni like the Mukatcher and Spinker Rebbes and the afformentioned Struckess bearing R Yankel Horowitz AB"D DTelz Rabusi
How is the Jewish world to be affected by who
ever is the new rosh of Telz ?
From what I heard Rav Stein was not the real head of the yeshiva either and others are contesting the baaylus of the school.
schneur said...
"How is the Jewish world to be affected by who
ever is the new rosh of Telz ?"
In israel they have gedolim! with pump and circumstance, who support the 'parties' and the party trumps them in return, note no other gedolim worldwide makes it! like their gedolim!!! why?
n israel they have gedolim! with pump and circumstance, who support the 'parties' and the party trumps them in return, note no other gedolim worldwide makes it! like their gedolim!!! why?"
Andekt america
bray of fundie you asked a ? I answered it.
Anon4:27 that's because Israel is the center of the world and that most certainly includes the Jewish world.My apologies to Lakewood,Gateshead,and Antwerpen but that's the way it is.After the Holocaust, this is reality even with all the Israeli political parties and their newspapers.
Anon4:27 that's because Israel is the center of the world and that most certainly includes the Jewish world.My apologies to Lakewood,Gateshead,and Antwerpen but that's the way it is.After the Holocaust, this is reality even with all the Israeli political parties and their newspapers.
Telsher Minyan in BP??
You mean the Telzer shtiebel Chassidus בנשיאות אדמו"ר מטעלזא ר' יעקב
Since that supposedly Litvish place has a Hassidic leader, where are the Hassidic shtiebels with Misnagdim over them? Stupid naive liberalism to put a Hassidic leader over them. We have seen what happened to Vien, as discussed here previously. No normal Litvishe place should appoint a Hassid as their leader.
They should remember what the Tayreh says לא תוכל לתת עליך איש נכרי
כי יסיר את בנך מאחרי ח"ו
Wake up Litvaks!
for those who wanted to know who is leading telz now: 1. Rav A.C. Levin is acting Rosh HAYeshiva (he now is Rosh of both Cleveland and Chicago). The other Roshei Yeshiva are Rav S. Eisenberger and Rav D. Goldberg. Rav S. Shapiro is Mahgiach and Rosh Kollel Rav A.Y. Sorotzkin is Rosh Yeshiva in exile. Ziggy G. is still official fat troublemaker
Was alsways wondering on what basis R' Horowitz was selected.
Shtolzer.
Your either a Lubavitcher having fun or a vister soyne yisrol ( and a complete dope). Ever hear of Lodz ? Who was it FAMOUS rov?
Shtoltzer litvak: In the post-holocaust world you're for the most part correct. The problem is that the Litvakes to a great extent speak Yiddish poorly or very Amerikanizirt,and view the Hassidim with their fluent Galicianer Yiddish and yiddishe levush as the "real deal".They are therefore "machniye" themselves before such examples of unadulterated pre-war yiddishkeit.That's why Lakewood likes Satmer as well{money of course plays a part].You have to start from the ground up and create a Litvishe educational infrastructure that will be true to the Littvishe mesorah including Yiddish. That's a tall order as we see in Lakewood.But I agree that it should be done.You have to bring melamdim from the yisuv hayoshon to teach littvishe yiddish beccause outside of Lubavitch there's almost no one in the US who can speak it in an acceptable fashion.Hassidim preserved their mesorah,we didn't.
Nor do khasidim abandon their old neighborhoods like the Litvaks do. Hence my post.
maybe this last point has something to do with the Litvisha Ben Torahs aversion to miskhar and the professions. Without making boatloads of money Broooklyn has become unaffordable. Khsaidim OTOH have no economic need to leave Brooklyn
Another Litvak
OTC. I think that we preserved it precisely by not overemphasizing the preservation of yiddish. Absent Torah one needs external trappings of clothing, language and diet to feel a national identity. But the Litvaks hew to the Saadia gaon maxim of אין אומתנו אומה אלא תתורתה
Another L-
The man. The only MAN for the job is R Osher Kalmanovich Shlita of Mir. He has R Malkiel's ear. If given a chance he will get it done. I would love to contact you and get things started.
Bray: You are right to a certain extent but not entirely. The Skverrer bli guzmeh have hundreds of kollel yungeleit many of whom are first class talmidei-chachamim.Satmer,too, has produced many fine learners and dayyonim.The same goes for Bobov and Vizhnitz.If it's only about learning then this,too,is teyreh,but it's not di teyreh fun der Liteh. That includes differences in derech halimud but it also includes a certain yishev hadaas and quietness which personified the Littvisher ben-Teyreh..Maybe it's a kind of tznius in how one leads his life.Anyone who knew some of the old Littvishe rabbonim fun dem freierdiken dor knows what I am talking about.Reb Moshe and Reb Yankev were examples of this but there were many more.In the modern world we call this the "culture" of a people which includes language and minhagim and the way people went about the business of everyday living.This "culture" in turn gave rise to the derech halimud that we know as the Litvisher derech.The "feier" in der Litte was well hidden from the spotlight of the outside world-perhaps too well hidden even from our own children and einiklech.The Littvishe derech fun der alter heim is almost extinct but perhaps something can still be salvaged.Who knows?
AnotherL -
Although gedolim of yore resisted instituting Yiddish as the language in which Toire is taught things have changed. Precisely because we are not Chasidim and the frierdike ZL would not want us to be we can reevaluate the matzev. The Chazon Ish ZL allowed ivrit. R Elchonon ZL said to Mr Mendlowitz A"h(he insisted on that title) Di Teyre tor nit zayn di shifche fun yiddish. Even recenttly R Shmul Berenbaum ZL resisted R Osher Kalmanowitzes efforts. He's proceeding now to do as he desired with the gutheysung from RS's son. We are much stronger now. Concessions made years ago are no longer necessary. As an exreme demonstration look at all the old obsolete musty concessions still retained in Chaim Berlin that today are absurd.
Wow, I am encouraged to see what my post brought out here. Yasher keyach to Another Litvack and other supporters.
There are still some Litvaks with Yiddish proficiency. If you combine that with using recordings of gedaylim of the past, something can be salvaged. Ayn dovor aymed bifnei harotzeyn! אין דבר עומד בפני הרצון.
Another Litvack is spot on in his 11:16AM post, though he goes a bit too far, by saying we didn't preserve our mesorah. True with some Litvaks but there is a hard core that knows more Yiddish and has more mesayreh.
Keep up the straight thinking and brainstorming and im yirtzeh Hashem, there will be hope.
Lodz was when, eighty years ago, or more?
Rav Chaim Sarna zt"l, Rosh Yeshivas Chevron Geulah
Bray, a few years ago on this very blog you revealed that you are not a litvak. so what's the deal with the "we".
Shtoltzer/Sht.-
How many Litvishe Roshives had careers by the Chasidim? Some of the all time greats. Rav Gustman ZL lubavitch. R Abbe Berman ZL Viznitz Monsey just to name 2. You draw up your own list. I don't think Telzer (emphasis on the midwestern pronunciation of the letter "Ahr") Minyan ever represented anything Telz-like or Litvish. How do you think R Avreml Ausband got away with murder being Mishanne and sending R M Gifter ZL packing. The Telshe Alumni didn't care. Large part of their crowd were the "Shmool gepaste Bekishe bendown" type.
I must add in the interest oof historical accuracy. Rav Gustman's career was somewhat brief. As told me by his talmid Rabbi Russ RG was frustrated that when he was to give his eary afternoon shiur the oilom was noch Farn Davnen. He went into the Rebbe who said "Tmimim zaynen limayle min hazman". That was it for RG. To be a fly on the wall. The look on his face must have been priceless
Nothing personal Tzig, but your loosing it man. I used to come here all the time and the oilam was knocking, banging it out here on an hourly basis. Guys would get crazy nasty and mean, keeping everyone's blood pumping and coming back for more. But now...yeh, I still pop buy every so often, only find stale posts motzei shabbos from a week ago, with scattered comments by drifters who've come by to see if anyone still alive here.
Yeh, Hersel it was nice while it lasted. I guess everyone gets his 15 minutes....
As strange as it sounds, some get theirs, while they're anonymous.
17 years today (?) that the Minsker wasn't allowed to speak in BMG
Who is the Minsker?
Anony 12:02 the reason this blog is "losing it" is because there have been overt and subliminal messages that issues in Lubavitch can no longer be discussed here openly. The Lubavitch issue is the "reactor core" of this blog and if you "retire" it you get a "blob blog." You can gain some yardage from Belz-Telz and Brisk-Trisk but you cannot score a touchdown.Why spend some time thinking and composing a comment when the Oholei Torah boys who've davka been taught NOT to think will be allowed to mercillessly rake you over the coals based on a perceived "slight" to the Rebbe's
reputation? TheTelz-BP connection is more important than Gimmel Tamuz in Lubavitch?Only when you're trying to avoid the real issues.
The fellow who brought a "raaye" from Lodz that a Chassidic city could have a Litvisher rav ( I presume he refers to Horav Eliyahu Chaim Meisels a Litviaher gadol) does not know his Modern Jbewish history . At least 50% if not more of the Jews in Lodz hailed from Lithuania and White Russia. Lodz was a tiny town until the mid 19th century. With the arrival of the Polish Industrial revolution , Lodz became the Manchester of Poland thousands of poor Litvishe Yidden came there to seek work. Thus they comprised a large portion of the Jewish population of Lodz.
he city had a large kreiz of Litvishe Chassidim namely Slonim a Litvishe yeshiva started by a wealthy Litvishe Yid named Diskin and even after rav Meisels' death many of the members of the vaad Horabbonim there were Litvakes.Of course there were many Congress Peylsihe Yidden there too and Aleksander was close by and Ger had a large eylem there too.
It is a davar yadua, that many large Polsih cities (I mean Congress Poland ) had Litvishe rabbonim for 2 reasons a. they were highly regarded as Lomdim, b. They were neutral in the constant war fare between various chassidc groups over rabbanus positions. So rather than actually give the job to lets say a Sokotchover man and diappoint the lets say Radomsker the job was given to a Litvak. In Warsaw too most of the rabbonim were if not true Litvakes then Misnagdim of peylishen opshtam. Rav Menachem Ziemba's election in the post WW1 period was a major breakthrough for the Chassidic community. One of their g edolim was elected to an offical rabbanus as a mmebr of the warsaw rabbinate.
I agree with anony Sunday, July 10, 2011 12:02:00 AM, and gragover rebbes rabbe. But just to add a point, this blog is dieing as we all can see because the moderator is very farshlufen lately and cus if you say anything that might slight chabad in any way he will delete you.
great way to have a good healthy 2 sided debate.
So few Lithuanian Jews survived the 20th century in an Orthodox form that 100 years later it is difficult to reconstruct this great Jewish cultural center.
First it was the haskallah, next Marxism and Zionism , then the First War, than the annexation of most of White Russia to the new Communist state and emigration to America and South Africa.Then the make bepatish - 90% of all Litvishe Yidden were killed in 1941-1945
Its a miracle that even in the 1930's the religious group were still a factor in Vilna and Kovna.
After the War the Yeshiva people did not seek to do what the Satmarer or Bobover sought to recreate galicia or Hungary in fields besdies Torah study.
Who even knows litvishe minhogim ? Now 40 years alter after the deaths of Rav henkin, rav Moshe etc , the yeshva world is totally submissive to the Hungarian chassidim , Note the silence in the yeshiva world about the Massorah in Lita about Metzitzah when this controversy broke several years ago.
Nothing can save the Litvishe cultural heritage unless a few Hungarian decide to try it, as they are among the last who take Chaabd seriously too.
I just finished reading RAV GIFTER and while he attempted to transmit the Telzer Teyere, there was no attempt to recreate a Litvishe kehillo leben.
To the Lito-Yiddish purists. Your seem to think that the only way they pronouned it was "Cheylem" as opposed to Choylem. There were other ways. The was a cross between ey and oy. The other way was "Chuylem". But not like the Hugarian Chawwwwwylem
Please resist temptation to respond with Chelem jokes
R' Shmuel Mohilever was Rav in Radom.
thanks for letting me/us know about vaadharabanim on twitter he is so on target. about calling r` yankel horowitz as telz rav i think he wants to raise a certain point, he appears to be a man that grabs titles, no wonder his yeshiva is going down hill, he simply cannot balance the strokis part and the telz part of him.
he"ll end up like rav skuleh the sadnoveh rebbi who wears a spodik, but yet is a mashgiah in torah vdaas.
As an exreme demonstration look at all the old obsolete musty concessions still retained in Chaim Berlin that today are absurd.
Which concessions are you referring to?
Not another Litvak said...
Bray, a few years ago on this very blog you revealed that you are not a litvak. so what's the deal with the "we".
Like so many other talmidim and alumni of the Yeshivisha velt my upshtam is not Litvish but my ethos and worldview are mostly that of my yeshiva and NOT that of my parents A'H.
BTW thanks for paying such close attention and halting kop. Who knew? Why don't I ever see you on my blog?
somebody had to pay for the shul of r` yankel horowitz, somebody had to appoint him as the rav there. i cannot understand the mind of these people to put up a chassidish strokis wearing person for a real litvish post.
unlike munkatch or spinka rebbi who happened to learn in the yeshiva, so they kept in close to them, they are talmidim like all the rest, chassidish or litvish, there are still talmidim of telz, but r` yankel horowitz he went a bit to far.
talmud bavli said..
but r` yankel horowitz he went a bit to far.
somebody had to pay for the shul of r` yankel horowitz, somebody had to appoint him as the rav there. i cannot understand the mind of these people to put up a chassidish strokis wearing person for a real litvish post.
If someone hired him how did he go too far?
Bray of fundy
BTW thanks for paying such close attention and halting kop. Who knew? Why don't I ever see you on my blog?
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Didn't know you had a blog. Must be that your advertising budget is very low.
r` yankel horowitz did nothing for telz in brooklyn, i"m sure he pusheh himself for the post, he turns now slowly the telz shul into a chassidic shul, the older generation will pass away, and telz will become a chassidic dynasty, just like rabbi katz did to vien or rabbi unger did to nitra. the younger generation of mispallim of telz is streimel.
Save Telz
Where are the "Telzer Yungeliet"? Nitra and vien were sabotaged at the Chinuch level. There's nothing being produced in Cleveland. RYH is only being reactive to the Matzev. Who knows maybe it'll reach a point that sans Struckess therell be no minyan.
"RYH is ... reactive to the matzev"
i dont think so, if you"ll look intothe past history of r` yankel horowitz as stated in "vaadharabanim" on twitter (mentioned above) his father R` meilech did not wear strokis, neither did he have the desire to the rebbish shtick as his son has. now once you change you dont know when to stop, he can call himself yarchiv rebbi or rosh yeshivas beis meir but please not telz rav, whom are you kidding.
I don't have a big taaneh on the אדמו"ר מטעלזץ. If shaytim offered it to him, it is more the fault of those who chose him. He seems to be a nice man, and a shaymer Shabbos, doesn't carry in the street. So take it easy on him personally.
"admur m`telz"? is something new to get used to? the litvaks are buckling to the feet of the chassidim. this epedemic must stop before its to late.
"save Telz said...
r` yankel horowitz did nothing for telz in brooklyn, i"m sure he pusheh himself for the post, he turns now slowly the telz shul into a chassidic shul, the older generation will pass away, and telz will become a chassidic dynasty, just like rabbi katz did to vien or rabbi unger did to nitra. the younger generation of mispallim of telz is streimel."
I nominate this post for the dumbest of the year and competition is fierce.
R' Y. Horowitz has been Rav there for almost 30 years, is beloved by EVERY single mispallel, and single-handedly has kept the place going.
Unfortunately, there are NO younger mispallelim and certainly not any chassidishe [other than one or two of his kids who show up sometimes.]
narishe drivel!
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