Shaar Blatt
The Gadol is referred to as "yenner Litvikker." The Hunyader Rov believed B'emunah Sheleimah that the SR would be revealed as Moshiach. He was the father of the late Rav Moshe Aryeh Freund of Jerusalem.
Yud mischalef b'mem. The Yismach Moshe's nevuah has now been realized...
We weren't worthy for Moshiach. He passed away on 26 Av, 5739.
62 comments:
The difference is:
A. He didn't make it a public movement.
B. When the Ruv died he realized it wasn't going to happen.
SDR
the Satmorim had a "problem" with Meshichism when the Rebbe was alive too. Don't you worry.
the satmar rebbe never hinted he was moshiach
TZIG YOU DIDNT FINISH RIGHT.
You had to finish ""We weren't worthy for Moshiach. He passed away on
"ג' בתמוז ה'תשנ"ד
and there is no psak from rabbanim that the rebbe is moshiach vadai.
hirshel said:
"the Satmorim had a "problem" with Meshichism when the Rebbe was alive too"
chasidim quitely wanted their rebbe to be the moshiach! 1) they gave up on it when their rebbe died duh! 2) their rebbes never mentioned or implied that he is! 3) no chasidim ever claimed that the 'other' rebbe is moshiach not theirs! so of course the LR was not is not and will not be 'their' moshiach ever! get over it!
and they didnt push it into the rambam,and they didnt say the rebbe is a navi and if he says he is moshiach everyone is obligated to believe in him.....
it was the hergesh of a rav that didnt go beyond that
hirshel'e just for the record, The medrash says: nachmi nachmi 'ami' yumar elochicham.. ami you can read as 'emi': with me, when the time will be for moshiach to come g-d will send from heaven each of the 'uvas' to mevaser the gualh! and no one will believe them (it says because they already have to many 'false mesiahs') therfore g-d will say he himself will go to mevaser the gualh! hence not ami but 'emi' the uvas will come with kavauchel himself THATS THE ONLY GUALH WE WAITING FOR!
There is nothing new about Jewish ppl thinkin their rabbi or leader is somewhat of a moshiach, but when someone "declares himself" it always had and will have dire consequences on Klal Yisroel.
Anyone else wonder just how big that cake was to fit all of that text?
hirshel:
משיחיזם נוסח סיגעט-סאטמאר
was the SR ruv in siget? I have never seen that the SR was called a 'sigeter' before.
i have not seen big flags, people waering kipas and booklets scattered all over the world proclaiming,"long live king messiah"
he wasn't Rov in Sighet although he wanted to be...
I wrote Sighet-Satmar since the tradition preceded him.
Anon
"and there is no psak from rabbanim that the rebbe is moshiach vadai."
wasn't the Hnyader Ruv a Rav with Semicha?
maybe u know something about him and you are hiding out.
Unless we will have to say a new difference, it is a difference between 1 ruv or many rabonim.
Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציגsaid...
"he wasn't Rov in Sighet although he wanted to be... I wrote Sighet-Satmar since the tradition preceded him."
I wanted to.. didn't you ?
"the tradition proceded him" whatever that means ?
zei gezunt.
Saul said...
and they didnt push it into the rambam,and they didnt say the rebbe is a navi and if he says he is moshiach everyone is obligated to believe in him.....
Because the Hunyeder never knew that there is such a sefer as Rambam hilchas Melochim,
He probably knew very well hilchos Pesach, Hilchas Shabos,And Yoreh Daeh. It is still Kefira to claim on Satmar ruv that he is moshiach, with the rambam or without the rambam.
Isn't it?
As a youngster in Willi I was taught so.
Akiva
"i have not seen big flags, people waering kipas and booklets scattered all over the world proclaiming,"long live king messiah"
So your only problem with chabad Meshichisim is the flag, cakes would be fine....???
He wasn't Rov in Sighet although he was ruv in: orshevah,krola,satmar,yrerushliem,kiryas joel, but not in siget, or williamsburg, or in 'kol haolam kilo' like the moshiach!
Anon
"hirshel'e just for the record, The medrash says: nachmi nachmi 'ami' yumar elochicham.. ami you can read as 'emi': with me, when the time will be for moshiach to come g-d will send from heaven each of the 'uvas' to mevaser the gualh! and no one will believe them (it says because they already have to many 'false mesiahs') therfore g-d will say he himself will go to mevaser the gualh! hence not ami but 'emi' the uvas will come with kavauchel himself THATS THE ONLY GUALH WE WAITING FOR!"
it is all Midrashim and the Rambam writes that there are too many conflicting chazals, so just follow me in the last perokim of hilchath melochim...
Anon
"but not in siget, or williamsburg, or in 'kol haolam kilo' like the moshiach!"
reading his tombstone in KJ you will see 3 times the title Rabon shel Kol Bnie Hagolah
not only Willi also Kenya and Cambodia, much bigger then moshiach...
Hirshel
Which Satmarer Shagetz send it to u????
So the Lubavitcher Rebbe is supposedly Moshiach. How come the intermarriage rate in America is way north of fifty percent. In a survey released last week concerning Jewish demographics in Chicago ,approx. 90,000 out of 130,000 households interviewed said thay had a non-Jewish member in the family.That's 70%!Is one of the signs of Moshiach's arrival that 70%of all "Jewish " families will have a goyish member at the Seder? And please don't tell me about Habad houses because their ability to stem intermarriage is minimal.They try but it's usually way too late.
Saul said...
that the "Hunyeder never knew that there is such a sefer as Rambam hilchas Melochim" if SAUL said it it must be true!
and that "It is still Kefira to claim on Satmar ruv that he is moshiach" hoping! or claiming? because no one 'claimed' taht he is not even Mr.chaim m. steinberg
Tzig - The Hunyader rav had a bigger yichus than being the father of the rav of the Eda. He was the son of the Nasuder rav Rav Abrahm Yehoshua Freund who was one of the greatest Zanzer chassidim of all time , a poel yeshuoth and a rebbe in his own right. The Hunyader rav was also the grandson of Reb Moshe Arye Freund the world famous rosh hakahal of Sighet who defended the Teitelbaum dynasty against various "groups" and people who wanted no part of them. Saying that you can add he also had a chashuve son in Jerusalem.
So do the Satmarer chassidim claim that he their Rebbe was Mashaich after 1979 as well ?
White Russian jews had a strong Massorah that the mashaich would be one of their own hence the Lubavitcher Rebbe was the stronger candidate.
Satmarer being rav in Jerusalem . Were there rabbonim in Europe who set foot in their kehilloth once every 5 years for a few weeks? If you consider the satmarer to have been rov In Jerusalem , then I may consider the Lubavitcher rebbe to be Mashaich!
I guess the difference is simple,
Moshiach can not be a person without a flat wife brim beaver hat....
Schneur said...
"hence the Lubavitcher Rebbe was the stronger candidate"
In a democracy like ours each has an opinion and a vote!(for whatever its worth)
Schneur
"White Russian jews had a strong Massorah that the mashaich would be one of their own"
where did you hear that Mesorah?
I always heard and saw it printed that the Alter Rebbe said that Moshiasch will be a Misnaged, because Chasidim have bitul and will go along.. vs. Misnagdim have no bitul.
all this is not important, it is very easy to see that chabad messianism and "satmar messianism" have no shaichus
Do chassidim have a full bittul ? to whom ?
I heard that Mashiach will be a descendant of both the Meor Eynaim and the Baal Hatanya.
He will certainly be a White Russian Jew.azey is di messorah bei unz.
SDR
"When the Ruv died he realized it wasn't going to happen."
Did the Bnie Yoel pick up a new Rebbe?
Schneur
"Do chassidim have a full bittul ? to whom ?
I heard that Mashiach will be a descendant of both the Meor Eynaim and the Baal Hatanya.
He will certainly be a White Russian Jew.azey is di messorah bei unz."
you are correct about the Bitul of Chasidim but this is the Mesorah I heard.
RE, the other Mesorah that Moshiach will be a hybrid of Chernobel/Chabad, I saw it the first time in Elye Chaim Carelbach memoirs in his Kerem Hachasiduth, I think he heard it in Bobov, Maybe I am wrong.
anon 4:24pm
Sasonkin brings it in his memoirs from Rebb Itche Der Masmid, IIRC
Shotzer Rebbe comes to Yerusholayim. asks to meet the Rov. Told he's in Villiamsboorg. Shotzer responds so i'm Lemberger Ruv.
Remember it's Satan's fault.
דער ר' חיים מרדכי שטיינבערג זאל זיך מיען שיינט מיר צו האבן געווען דער זעלבער תמים ווי זיין זון ר' משה אהרן, איך נעם ארויס זיין ערנסטקייט און תמימות און אמונה פשוטה ואמונת צדיקים.
די פאקט אז ער האט עס געהערט פון הוניאדער רב און אז דער רבי איז געווארן ערנסט ליינענדיג די ווערטער, איז ביי מיר א גרויסע צריך עיון.
די הויפט שאלה העומד על הפרק איז 'ווער איז טאקע משיח?' דער סאטמאר רב איז שוין נישט דאהי פון ל"ט דער ליובאוויטשער צדיק איז שוין אויך אין מאנטיפיורא פון נ"ד, איז שוין דא עפעס א נייער משיח?
Dear Anon
I saw that same Satmar Moshiach belief in a article in Der Tzietung 25 to 30 years ago. It was written by a pen name that wrote all Satmar Ruv hagiography in that Newpaper, I heard the writers are or Gelbman or Menashe Fulop. So it seems that this belief was circulating in the inner chambers of Satmar Chasidim. I don't know how old you are, but it was a era that Satmar (with the Nishtakcho)was a chasidus Kechoil Hagoyim, there was tishen, sheraim,shventz,shtieb menmchen meshamshim for the shtieb mentchen, new Mechalkel Chaim nigunim that was sung in Satmar families sukahs. It all evaporated by the Bierech Moshe and the Bnie Yoel, the later try to create Satmar as some kind of evil ideology.With Sakmar Ruv as the leader. Could of be some litvak or Oberlander yid, It is a farce.Every year that it passes they move away from the real Sakmer. So whatever it does not match to the ideology, is white washed, it starts to look like the Neturie Karta Litvaks like the Kantzelenbogens
"איז שוין דא עפעס א נייער משיח"
No new moshiach but the same one that is mentioned in the gemorah and medrashem! alot of tzadikim starting from 'korach' all the way to the h'agru and the b'shemtov could of develop nishmas mushiach if the generation would of been ready obviously we where not so he will come 'in his time' even we are not ready!
anon: "that wrote all Satmar Ruv hagiography"
Oh wow what an expert on satmar! can you be more specific on the "hagiography" that you so sure of that is written about the SR by the satmars and its not true!
anon: "Satmar (with the Nishtakcho)"
whatever that means.. I'm sure you are aware that the gemora says "that the torah itself will be forgotten" rc"l not only the buba masius chasidim dwell on,
and you may also know that 1000's of halachous where forgotton when moshe rabbanu died! thats nature
how the generations move on! and trying to re-create what was lost that is how it supposed to happen.
It was the holy Birech Moshe that said multiple times that Gelbman (Geler Badchen as u people like to call him)is patalogical liar,
Man Gavra Raba Dekomashid bie... what could I add on devoroiv hakdoshoiv..
I am aware big time
Who satmar ruv z"l was, what satmar worldwide and in america did! is a phenomenon that this generation will never be capable to comprehand in the slightest/fullest! all the psycho bable floating around doesn't scratch the surface of it!
To all Satmar Chasidim that try to run and hide from this story, why do you think that Satmar Ruv was not a candidate or potential Moshiach?
Maybe since Chabad chasidim made the Moshiach in to a bud of jokes?As I think and I hope that no chasidus will in the nearest future beat up one of their own,since the New Square saga.Its not popular anymore.
Is Moshiach not Hiemish anymore since the chabadniks put it on the flags and bus stop posters?
It was still Hiemish by the Yismach Moshe,
Isn't believing and having a Moshiach, the biggest answer for the heresy of Zionism that tried to rebuilt Palestine with no Moshiach as a central figure?
I am confused I need a satmar Moreh Nevochim.
If it is impossible to decipher the Satmar phenomenon, then why does Gelbman kill so many trees for his pulp fiction.
Hirshel,
Stam Lehoir:
I know you are into the perfection thing. Reb Yitzchok Horowitz was aka "Itche Masmid", not "Itche Der Masmid."
Regards,
במחנה - אותיות מנחם בן חנה
"why does Gelbman kill so many trees"
hafoch boh, hafoch boh dekilah boh
"why does Gelbman kill so many trees for his pulp fiction"
most of his biography is true in (golem form)abstract, however if you know different write him with proof and he will correct it
LIKE it or not the satmar rav is respected by everyone, besides the lubabs. even those who disagree respect him.
Can zuchor be nisgalgel in a nikayvah?
Hirshel, any thoughts on the recent Chabad and IDF plan?
When did the LR ever declare himself mashiach?!
Aderaba, he said on numerous occasions that the Rayatz is mashiach.
anon:"I need a satmar Moreh Nevochim"
you may need a lobotomy first
Mottel said...
"Anyone else wonder just how big that cake was to fit all of that text?"
ever heard of 'seven layers' ?
ever heard of 'seven layers' ?
I thought 7 layer was KeNeged Sheva Rukiyos, and the overall chocolate covering (BaHalten) was Iskasye
BelzFinAMool said...
you sound more like a lubavitch from 'today' not like a "BelzFinAMool"
Shneur,
Moshich will be Ukrainian:)..AND A FRIEDMAN :)(There are around 30 Friedmans left now, so not too much to choose from:))
Otherwise I am staying in Brooklyn!
Russian Chosid
Are u sure not a Brier?
no one ever was Machtir SR "BeChes'kas"
As we say in the yeshiva velt, quoting RBB Leibowiz, "Chazukeh iz Eizen"
BelzFinAMool said...
no one ever was Machtir SR "BeChes'kas"
""As we say in the yeshiva velt, quoting RBB Leibowiz, "Chazukeh iz Eizen""
BelzFinAMool, so what are you NOW! a lubab. or a lutvak?
There are two 'vertlach' which are important to mention:
The Kotzker once said that Moshicah will come from Russia.
There was a story with the Divrei Chaim, that one time he closed his eyes at a Melaveh Malkeh and it appeared that he was asleep. After a while he opened his eyes and said 'It appears to me that Moshiach will arrive first to americeh'
So... does Reb Yoel fit that? I think not... on the other hand...
Rachmiel
On the other hand,
who said the Kotzker said that?
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