(a Kol Koreh for the Sereter Trade School)
A good friend of the blog sent us this flyer for a trade school, today's version of IDT, or The Lander Beis HaMedrash (Touro College) that was set up by the late Sereter Rebbe, Reb Burech'l Hager, in Seret, Bukovina before WW2. He asked the question: "How is it different than what Dr. Lander instituted, where students learned half a day and learned a trade the other half, so that they could feed their families once they got married? I have no real answer for him. As many of you know, I myself went and learned a trade after I was married, so that I could feed my family - not that it worked out so great... I never really asked anybody of authority if I should go and do it, I just did. We've discussed this before, don't be so surprised. Maybe what upset some people was that Touro caters to bachurim who should otherwise be learning. In that case so did this Yeshiva; they weren't catering to married men back then, you can be sure of that. So what else can we say is the difference between back and then and today? There are probably several, both, geographic, time period and personality, as well as the people involved today and in der alter heim. Allow me to explain:
Geography is important here for several reasons. Bukovina was a wasteland by that time, as far as Yiddishkeit was concerned. The youth was going downhill fast. His own father, the Rebbe der Ahavas Yisrool left Vizhnitz, Bukovina during WW1 never to return. He said he couldn't bear to watch the youth go astray. He said he did it to save his own children... Not every bachur went to Yeshiva in those parts, not by a long shot, so any one that would come and learn for a half day was a big deal already. The fact that he worked for half a day and was taught by a G-d fearing Jew was a bonus, they were saving lives by having such a Yeshiva. These boys were also needed at home, to work in the fields or to do other work so to help feed the rest of the family, who might have otherwise starved. (Not that today is any different - many families would do alot better if the older boys went to work and helped with the bills, especially some of the boys who are wasting their time in Yeshivos... There, I go again, destroying my own point...) So to compare Bukovina, 1938 to Flatbush, 2009 may be a bit disingenuous. Or at least that's what they'll have you believe. The "time period" difference that we mentioned can be closely related to the "geography" issue, being that the time period has lots to do with the geography... The geography of Bukovina is what - you might say - made Bukovina into what it became, a place of Haskoloh and the abandonment of traditional Judaism en masse. Bukovina was not always that way, it boasted many great Tzaddikim and Rabbonim just a short time earlier, but the time period of post-WW1 was what destroyed it, much like in Poland, Lithuania and Russia.
Then there's the personality issue. The Sereter Rebbe was a gutter Yid who built Torah and made - or at least kept - hundreds of families into Shomrei Shabbos and Chassidishe Yidden. This was the case in Eretz Yisroel after WW2, and I'm sure he had done that in Bukovina, despite the fact that he didn't have all the mosdos that he ultimately built in Haifa. There was a nucleus in Seret that stayed frum despite all the hardships. Such a personality, with such Zchus Avos, has a very strong leg to stand on, no matter how revolutionary the idea that he proposes; (unless, of course, you're a Lubavitcher Rebbe...) So if the Sereter Rebbe wants to start a trade school and teach Bocherim how to earn a living, then so be it.But it's not just about the Sereter Rebbe. In Seret there was no Rosh Yeshiva who decided that he was the רשכבה"ג and that all must heed his words, like there was in Bnei Beraq. Heck, there wasn't even one in Vilna, Mir or Slabodka for that matter. All those Roshei Yeshiva, may they rest in peace, were concerned about their own talmidim and their own problems! So had Dr. Lander done this in Europe chances are that there would be little or no opposition to his school, not that the opposition accomplished much anyway. The place is packed with Chassidishe and Yeshivishe yungeleit and girls, and Lakewood even set one up in a nearby town... So there you have my 2 cents.
The Sereter Rebbe (r) at a simcha, possibly pre-WW2
But in the end it didn't matter much. Even if you had a parnosoh you were rounded up and sent to Transnistria and may have died on one of the Death Trains. Or if you were so lucky, you survived the trains but died later in some death camp... All Jews shared the same fate, no matter your level of observance, and no matter if you stayed away from Torah im Derech Eretz. The Bukoviner and Bessaraber Yidden may have borne the brunt of it all; their culture was totally wiped out, even more so than the Polish and Litvish. At least with the P&Ls the Hungarians rekindled that culture to the best of their abilities (where Litvishe are concerned) and some remnants of Poylishe Judentum remained, mostly from pre-war aliyah. But with the Bessaraber and Bukoviner it's GONE! Well, there was a quasi-renewal after the fall of the Soviet Union, when you could once again hear from an old man how he "iz illemoo'el gegunnen koyfen mutzes in peysikh," and how "er hut ul ding voos er durf..." So was the will of Hashem.
I hope the point was made.
44 comments:
Tzig,
You fail to grasp the difference between Chasidim and oilamishe. Snags need a yeshiva and learning to keep them in the fold; unlike hasids, who manage with food, drink and membership cards (the Chasidus is like a kupat cholim). Case of point: hymes and hasids going to Toura and Lander are generally better than the Flatbush guys there. No?
better in what way, Gregor?
I think that there is a difference between trade school and college. Trade school just teaches you how to become a carpenter, a mechanic, etc. It does not uproot your intellectual beliefs; whereas college is designed to train one to think for himself, often to expunge the teachings of his youth and replace them with a modern mode of thinking.
The anti Touro gedolim didnt mind the trade school, and had no issues with people learning and attending BKLYN college at night.
The mix of yeshiva and college got their goat.
The idea of college is designed to nurture independent thinking but in reality (and I was in college and I know what I am talking about, Boruch Hashem it was after I was already settled in my ways) college does not promote independent thinking, it is really (as an undercurrent paradigm of world view) instilling hedonistic approach to life with the idea that any type of moral is no more than a social mental toy. Idea of G-d is considered to be indecent, improper and out of bounds. It forces "modern mode of thinking" as an environment pressure.
You admit that the circumstances are different. Every case is different and you need the Talmidei chachomim of each situation to decide. None of what you wrote changes that. So when the Gedolei Yisroel were against Touro, they had todays issues in mind, no thistorical issues.
Anyway, how do you know the Gedolim did not disagree with the Sereter Rebbe's institution? He was not known as one of the Gedolim of his time and to prove anything for eternity from something that he did is dangerous.
These bochurim he was dealing with, did they have a chance of going to Yeshiva? Were they not leidigeying, producing all kinds of criminal activities and other social problems? Noone is saying that Touro is wrong for teens at risk. When it is advertised for upstanding yeshiva boys, who could be learning it is a different thing.
One more point, those that opposed Touro claim there is questionable material in their curriculum. There does not seem to be any method of censoring their curriculum, which makes the institution dangerous. The Sereter Rebbe could censor the materials used, and they were probably learning a trade with their hands, which is less problematic.
That is just one man's opinion.
How about the trade schools of the kedooshas tzeeyon or yesheeva farm settlement?
Poshute chilik is that tey were A. Tzadikim. B. Didn't teach kfira, just manual trades....
grainom
I never heard a word of kefirah in Touro while I was there. We had mostly frum teachers. The same thing could happen in any Mesivta during English, and it does...
meaning the kefirah that is supposedly taught in Touro could happen in Mesivta during English...
to all those who are saying that college teaches kefira, does that apply to touro?
in fact, the fact that touro is one of the biggest sources for even the most chassishe people, to help them obtain parnassah b'kavod , makes me wonder if the modern orthodox are more vital than we like to think. cause when the bubble bursted and the many heimishers needed parnooseh we had the modern lander to fall back on. It makes me wonder.
Graniom.
Wow! So all the Bobov yeshivas were in reality trade schools?
Are you sure about this?
Tzig,
If you heard no Kefira then either you took no Hashkafa, Tanach type classes (quite possible if you had some yeshiva credits) or you are deaf. I couldn't believe some of the material that a "frum" teacher at Touro taught my wife (she found the "frum" ones to be the worst offenders). Worse than the materials were the class discussions where peer pressure directed by the "frum" professor took 12 years of Bais Yaakov education and turned it into giggles about the age of the Universe etc. (I know the Chasam Sofer et al as well as you do) (and i know your 2nd point about what it says abotu the BY education as well). Point is there is plenty of danger in Touro and the sheep"'s clothing is what makes this wolf the most dangerous, snide comments about Maran aside.
You speak of Bukovinian and Bessarabian Jewish culture which leaves me a bit confused. Was the culture of Bukovina the same as today’s Moldavia? There was a summer program on Yiddish in Czernowitz around 3 years ago. In Kishinev there was a large enclave of German speaking Jews, the most famous being the great poet Paul Celan. Could you give an example or two how the Jewish culture in Bukovina was different from Galicia and from Romania?
Tzig. I have little energy to write a tract on Jews of Bukowina or Bessarabia in the 20th century, but if do a little s erious reading (begin with Pinkas hakehillos)you will note that both areas were becoming completely assimilated and aculturated by 1930 . If you read Olama shel abba you will note that even earlier these area's Chassidic population by and large were hardly frum ,but more supestitious .
So the fact that their culture did not survive is understandable , there was no high religious culture to speak of to survive. Except for the yeshiva in Kishinev there were only a few high class torah schools (Bohush , Vishnitz er yeshiva). Am haaratzus ruled both regions.Even the chassidim were in this class.
Now as far as religion goes the rabbinic culture was either Galician or Ukranian as both those regions were essentially part of either Ukrainian Jewry (Bessarabia0 or Galicia (Bukowina) so there was little of an independent Rabbinic culture there to begin with. Was rav Zirelson of Kishinev a Rumanian , was rav RM. Roth of Czernowitz a Rumanian ,Even the last chief rabbi of Rumania Rabbi MD Rosen came froma galician rabbinic fmaily that moved to Rumania 2 generations earllier As a mashal Lita included reisen, latvia, kourland, Lomzha area Bialistock area so Galaicia extended its influence over Bukowina.
Finally despite what you state many Jews in that region did in fact survive Please compare that to the 90% death rate in Lithuania.
By the way when you speak of cultural survival you seem to equate that with chassiidc culture. Did you know that probably the majority of frum Jews in Poland were not Chassidim ? the same is true in Hungary.
the only region that mangaed to escape partially in tact was Hungary . Yes I know hundreds of thousands were killed, Yet at least 100,000 Jews survived in Budapest and big communities like Timisoara and Arad remained untouched by the Nazis. Many other jews survived in the semi military slave labor battalions etc.
The Ruzhiner rebbes who were behind the program you write about knew their customers and correctly assesed the fact that without a parnassah most of the youth would be lost . Belz opposed this assuming conditions in Bukowina were like in their arae of Galicia (which was not very great either).
By the way as of the early 1970s' the largest ethnic group of Ashkenazi jewsin Israel were Rumanaian jews meaning those from Bukowina, Moldavia and Bessarabia(Jews in Western rumania are considered Hungarian). So more than a few survived .
evanstonjew, you probably meant Czernowitz and not Kishinev.
Since pre WW II Romania was made up of different regions that had belonged previously either to the Russian empire ( Moldavia )the Austro - Hungarian empire ( Bukovina, Transsylvania, Marmaros ) or the Romanian heartland ( Bucarest )there was no such thing as a homogenous Jewish culture in Romania. You have to look at each region in a different way, taking into account its socio-ethnic history.
Schner,
How did you determine that most frum Jews in prewar Poland weren't hasidic? If so, where they misnagdim or did they have 'haymeshe' type people there, like in Hungary?
Better in ruchniyus (Which other way can one be "better"? At the golf range?).
If I may quote the Chafetz Chaim over here: he spoke at one of the knesiyah gedolas or something like that (IIRC: the one in which Ger and Alexander came together under one roof) and said there are three types of Jews: hayseh, kohlich and kalt.
yoshe kalb...I meant what I said. Czernowitz in Bukovina has even today a couple of hundred Yiddish speakers. Despite being part of the Austrian Empire, Bukovina was not known, to the best of my knowledge, for its contribution to German-Jewish culture. It was like Yiddish speaking Galicia, as Schneur just said. David Asaf in his book on the Rizhiner, brings out quite clearly the close connections between the two areas, especially once the dynasty moved to Sadiger in Bukovina.
Kishinev, the modern day Chisinau, then the capital of the Russian province of Bessarabia, and today the capital of Moldavia, was home to a German speaking Jewish group and produced the greatest poet to write about the Holocaust in the German language. I don't know what else is to be said about the Bessarabian Jewish religious culture, hence my question.
"lakewood set one up in a nearby town" what are you refering to?
they have a Touro program in Howell, NJ, so that it shouldn't within the confines of the עיר התורה
they have a Touro program in Howell, NJ, so that it shouldn't within the confines of the עיר התורה
hey, hook me up! where do i find them?
evanstonjew, please check the facts: Paul Celan (nee Antschel ) was born in Czernowitz NOT Kishinev. Kishinev had no ethnic German population to speak of and belonged to the Russian empire before WW I.
Thanks to yoshe kalb for correcting (twice!) the facts about Cernowitz and Celan.
yoshe kalb...I checked. You were right all along. I was mistaken. My apologies for not recognizing my mistake first time around.
Despite my best efforts this isn't the first time I got things confused, so caveat empor.
ציג עד מתי עאתה פותח על ב סעיפים...
are you saying your own thing or in the name of your rebbe
evanstonjew said...
" Despite my best efforts this isn't the first time I got things confused, so caveat empor."
caveat emptor
peoriajew
What I understand from family members of mine who grew up in this region the Jews in Bukovina and Besserabia were quite different, their yiddish, loyalties, their level of observance. The difference was even greater between these Jews and the Romania proper (the Regat). Amarazus was prominent in the Regat but less so in the Bukovina, especially pre WWI. It's more accurate to state that Haskalah reigned in this province.
Many of the local Rabbonim in the Bukovina came from Galicia (such as my father's uncle, R' Meshulam Roth) and Poland, but many towns did have locally born Rabbis, though many rabbinic familes had roots in Galicia.
Kosov/Viznitz and the Ruzhiner Rebbes were the primary Rebbes in Bukovina.
My g-father Rabbi Josef Rubin, Rav of Campulung in Bukovina(though born in Galicia) was born into a Bukoviner family. His brother was the Rav of Kiztman in Bukovina as well.
His family had deep roots in Bukovina, his grandmother's father was the Rebbe R' Alter'l of Radovitz (in Bukovina)who was a son of Reb Chaim of Kosov and a brother of the Tzemach Tzaddik of Viznitz.
Reb Alter settled in Radovitz around 1850's and had a grand chassidic court (I recommend that reader see below link for a original historical document on Radovitz which sheds light on chassidic history in Bukovina: http://www.jewishgen.org/Yizkor/Radauti/rad001.html).
R' Alter'l was succeeded by his son in law R' Schmelke Rubin of Sereth, who was my grandfather's grandfather. Reb Schmelke was famed throughout Bukovina. By the time R'Schmelke's son R'Mendel was Rebbe during the 1st half of 20th century most of the children of his father's chassidim were either more modern and remained his balabatim or became Vizhnitzer chassidim while still remaining loyal to him.
By the time my grandfather (son of R' Mendel) was a teenager growing up in Sereth during the first decade of the 20th century, there was a yeshiva in Seret which taught limudei chol. This original Sereter yeshiva was founded by Reb Akiva Shreiber, a son of Reb Shlomo Alxeandri Shreiber, who was the son of the Reb Shimon Sofer of Krakow.
My grandfather went on to study at the universtiry in Cluj (Klauseberg) where he eventually earned a PhD - this was not very common among children of Rebbisher families.
My g-father was a proponent of the Hirschian shitah and translated large parts of the works of Rav Hirsch from German into Romanian. He raised his children on this shitah as well.
When my g-father was 14 he traveled to Galicia to visit family and one of the stops he made was in Belz where he visited Reb Yisachar Dov, who was a first cousin of his grandfather R' Schmelke. The Belzer Rav tested him on his learning and after finishing with him said "ich hub zich gefreit az mein zeide hut an eynekel in di Bukovina vus halt azoi veit in lernen!"
My father remembers Dr. Lander visiting my grandfather in Long Beach, NY during the 1950's to discuss his idea of founding what would become Touro. Seems תורה ומדע does have some Bukoviner roots.
The Rav in Campulung that preceded my grandfather was Rabbi Dr. Wolf Mischel, a formidable rabbinic personality and a mechaber seforim.
Campulung was very secular and modern. Most men were professionals, lawyers and doctors, though there were a few shtreimels. The position as Rav of this town was a challenge for my g-father as a scion of a hassidic dynasty to be influential on his townspeople. But through his mastery of the Romanian language, he did very well and with time became one of the prominent Rabbonim on the national scene in Romania with excellent governmental connections.
(see below link for an interesting article published documenting his role during WWII: http://www.biu.ac.il/JH/Parasha/shmini/gele.html)
Sereth, where his father lived and maintained a hoif, was also modern but had a somewhat larger chassidic crowd.
It is interesting to note that I have interviewed Reb Pinchos Horowitz of Bnei Brak, son of the Baniliver Rav. Reb Pinchos (nearly 100 yrs old) is a real Bukoviner chossid, a rare commodity. He told me the story of how Reb Boruch Hager (of Seret-Vizhnitz) came to be Rav of Sereth.
The Rav that preceded the Mekor Boruch as Rav in Sereth was Rabbi Dr. Freifeld, a modern enlightened Rav. When he passed away there was a struggle as to the succession - with some wanting another Rabbiner Doktor and others wanting a more Haredi Rav.
My g-fther's father the Rebbe Reb Mendele Rubin (son of Reb Schmelke Sereter) and Reb Shlomo Alexandri Shreiber and his son in law Reb Yosef Naftali Stern strongly supported the candidacy of Reb Boruch and they were backed up by the candidates father the Ahavas Yisroel of Vihznitz. Eventually they prevailed and Reb Boruch moved from his post as Rav in Kitzman Bukovina to Sereth. Part of the deal was that Reb Usher Rubin, (son of Reb Mendel) then became Rav of Kitzman, as noted above.
Another big town in Bukowina was Gura Homorlui (near Campulung) was known as a chassidic town with many Sadigerer and Vizhnizter chassidim.
Most of the remaining survivors of these towns live in Israel, with a large concentration in the Haifa area, they are mostly secular, but are very proud of their heritage and are active in arranging reunions and meetings of their former townspeople
Schneur
I read awhile back that the Vasloyer Rebbes ( from the Rushiner stem thru a daughter) had a big yeshiva and was a big askan in that region.
Did u read about it? was it a significant yeshiva?
What about Shtefnesht? did he have a yeshiva? or Yoshvim style, where the Old Skulener Rebbe , Ribnitzer Rebbe and Reb Moshe Wiess (Batlan) of Skver learned.
Also it is important to Mention the Yeshiva in Visheve, under the leadeship of Reb Mendel Hager(brother of the Sereter)it was a fine Yeshiva with a a few hundred bucherim, you can see that on the pictures.
Did the Kishenevver Yeshiva exist till the war?
Vishiva is Marmures...
Mib
"who was a first cousin of his grandfather R' Schmelke"
was you grandfather a Belzer Einikel? How?
your information on this part of the world is greatly appreciated,
Hirshel
thanks
How about Vasloy? Shtefenesht?
Reb Schmelke Sereter was the son of Eydele, daughter of Sar Sholom. So he was a first cousin of Reb Yisachar Dov of Belz, also a garndson of the Sar Sholom.
thanks
I didn't know that Visnitz and Belz were Mechutonim so early by the Sar Sholem. I thought it all started by the Sereters first Rebetzin, the 2 cultures are quite different.
BTW, Reb Yossef Naftuli talks very highly about the Sereter Rebbe in his foreword of the Derushas Chasam Sofer, that he published.
gruntig was your best link, why did you diss him?
Gruntig was always listed as "chabad mont pnimiyus", which was his original name, but I changed it to Gruntig. You're right, he's a great link! But I did not "diss" him.
A call to rehabilitate haredi education
By MK RABBI HAIM AMSALEM
08/31/2011 23:18
Traditional Torah sources teach in the clearest of terms that learning a trade to support one’s family with dignity.
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=236228
MIB
"By the time my grandfather (son of R' Mendel) was a teenager growing up in Sereth during the first decade of the 20th century, there was a yeshiva in Seret which taught limudei chol. This original Sereter yeshiva was founded by Reb Akiva Shreiber, a son of Reb Shlomo Alxeandri Shreiber, who was the son of the Reb Shimon Sofer of Krakow."
I am shocked that the family of the Chasam Sofer established a Yeshivah with secular studies . The hungarian rabonim, who considered themselves talmidie CS were leading a outright war against the Seminar Lerabonim of the great Rav Hildeshiemer, based on the CS view, there were many that wanted to ostracise him.
Unless you can shed some more light on the CS families view on the CS view on this matter.
Anonymous,
Perhaps establishing a yeshivah with some limudei chol was the only way to reach the inhabitants of this region and convince them to send their sons to yeshivah?
Are you shocked that R' Moshe Shmuel Glasner the real Rav of Klausenberg,mechaber Dor Reve"ii, the first great grand child of the CS was a leading light of the Mizrachi?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_Shmuel_Glasner
Zionist Activity
Rabbi Glasner's independence as a thinker was also manifested in his early support for Zionism (almost unique among the Hungarian Orthodox rabbinate). A founder of Mizrachi (religious Zionism), he became personally close to Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook, especially after taking up residence in Jerusalem in 1923. His independence and especially his outspoken Zionism led to his estrangement from many of his rabbinical colleagues in Hungary. After the First World War, he increased his efforts in support of the Zionist enterprise. His "Zionism in the Light of the Faith"[2] is the primary source for his philosophy of Zionism. He sharply criticized his colleagues in the Hungarian rabbinate for denying the national aspect of Judaism while proclaiming themselves to be nothing more than Hungarians of the Mosaic faith. Judaism had a national component which could only be realized once Jewish life in its full national character had been restored in the Holy Land. In 1921 he represented Mizrachi at the 12th World Zionist Congress in Carlsbad, and he undertook many speaking tours on behalf of the Zionist cause. Hia outspoken support of Zionism caused extreme elements of the Orthodox community in Klausenburg to break away from the community that he had headed for over 40 years. In 1923, Rabbi Glasner retired from his position as chief rabbi and was succeeded by his son, Rabbi Akiva Glasner. In his farewell address to his community at the Klausenburg train station as he embarked on his journey to Palestine, he implored his listeners to follow him to Palestine while they were still able to do so, because he greatly feared that a time would come when they would want to leave Europe to go to Palestine but then would no longer be able to leave.
http://www.math.psu.edu/glasner/Dor4/ms.jpg
http://www.math.psu.edu/glasner/Dor4/
MIB
I am on your side that this was the only logical way, and Rav Hildeshiemar believed the same, but the Ungarische raboinim were out for his blood. I saw lately in a old Hamayan a letter of a Pressburgher yid to Rav Hildeshiemer, he talks with respect but rips in to him badly.
It is tough for us to judge now, what is the truth or the other way
Dor Shevi
"because he greatly feared that a time would come when they would want to leave Europe to go to Palestine but then would no longer be able to leave."
would you say it was his common sense or ruach hakodesh?
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