Tuesday, May 20, 2014

....לוח פאפא - תש"ג

I was struck by the עולם כמנהגו נוהג aspect of the calendar. שובבי"ם and all... The world is going to h*ll and they're.... never mind that. I wasn't there, I can't point fingers. But what gets an Hungarian like myself is the treyfene names and dates! In the treyfene language! Did not the תקנות of 1866 outlaw such heresy?! And what's with the 43-46 minutes after shkiah צאת הכוכבים?!


Not a Harry said...

Read "nor the moon by night" about how Hungarians laughed at people who came bearing witness to the atrocities being perpetrated against polish jewry.

Boro Pester said...

Shocking that such frum/chasidic yeshiva should print in Hungarian, but as a whole its a nice piece

yoish said...

Azoy zeees! I love it.

Kid of survivor said...

The calender is for 1943, Poland was wiped out,and in Hungary they still went on with life. Its amazing, when did that yeshiva close?

SDK said...

There is a clarification on the first page about not relying on the shown זמן for מוצאי שבת

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I too saw that clarification, but today they daven mincha at that time. Surely not maariv, not even on a weeknight

Anonymous said...

Wrong, in all Pupa shuls even in the popular minyan factory in Williamsburg no mincha is allowed after 40 or 45 minutes. These zmanim are regular traditional Hungarian zmanim as in all kehilos. And these zmanim are specifically explained in shu"t keren leduvid, by Pupa Ruv's uncle. 72 minutes -as explained by Reb Yosef in the forward in this Luach is a mere nice chumra, not a binding psak.
I'm shocked that you are surprised at publishing of luchos or sefarim. There was vibrant publishing of sifrey kodesh up to the last moments (including eim habunim smaichu). I have a few of such sefarim in my collection.
As for Hungarian, again I'm puzzled I have hilchos nida in Hungarian, the Chasam Sofer himself published nida halochos in Hungarian.
Luchos (hello?) are for what?

Yosef 718

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

struck, not shocked. We all know about the Tanya of 1943 too.

but what happened to the no Hungarian rule that they made? Was that for shuls only? no public speeches in Magyar?

Anonymous said...

Yes that's it, no public drushes, but most Hungarian Orthodox women only could read or speak Hungarian, remember all our zeidis and bubies went to public school
Yosef 718

Daas Baal Habayis said...

Yosef 718
this luach is a very important document (Rav Benish in his great sefer quotes it too) for the new doir that stem from proper Hungary but are under the Satmar Munkach Klauzenburg Bobover influence. Unfortunately there are alot of yungeliet that are doing melochas deoirasios after shekia. Which you see in the Luach that standard hungarian raboinim even the ones that traveled to Chasidic Rebbes were accepting the shekia as the close of Friday, and held that by 47 minutes its night.
The luach is based on the luach of the Keren Ledovid of his days in the historical Austrian town of Tzelem, before Visheve and Satmar.
The above should be the guidepost for the kids that stem from these regions which I think is the majority of Boro park and Williamsburgh, this should be there cry for Chodosh oser min hatorah.
There are too many seforim like Yisroel Vehazmanim who are intentionaly fudging up this issue, in order to serve their agenda

Daas Baal Habayis said...

Yosef 718
"As for Hungarian, again I'm puzzled I have hilchos nida in Hungarian, the Chasam Sofer himself published nida halochos in Hungarian. "
maybe I am mistaking, but I think that the Rosh Hakohol Reb Ber Frank printed the Hilchos Nidah in German.
Maybe I am wrong, it has to be checked.
I think that this Luach is probably from the last 10 seforim(including the Pishtiyaner) printed in eastern Europe before the end of the war, I would like to know your list.

Yoine Cohen said...

Daas Baal Habayis

A few points:
1) Meloche after shkiah "IS" a Hungarian accepted minhag up to the war according to Chasam Sofer Tshuva 80

2) There are 2 ways to keep 72 chumra. a. a chumra b. thats the halacha. You mentioned Satmar Munkatch Kluj Bobov in the same breath and it is not the same. The Minchas Eluzer paskens like the Tanya but says we need to be machmir for 72 by deoraisa. So does Belz, so does bobov, Kloizenberg Satmar say the halacha is 72 and you need to be machmir for the Tanya's shita. There are serious differences in the approach especially when it comes to derabanan.

For Pupa 72 is a chumra not halacha. as the Pupa Rav writes here, and davening mincha after 45 is against halacha. Which means that his default halacha opinion is lefi haOfek keminhag ungaren.

It is sad to see regular folks at shomer shabbos daven late mincha which goes against 99% of the poskim, even those who pasken as Rabenu Tam b/c they hold that R"T is earlier, as explained in Biur Halacha siman 293.

3) Your assertion about Harfenes; I know Rav Harfenes personally well and he did not actually fudge. If you read him carefully he agrees with Rav Benesh and he agrees that davening mincha after 45 (truth is even that late is a problem in NYC) is highly problematic and is goes against roiv of roiv poskim. He cant "shout" it, b/c he is in Satmar, of course.

4) Maybe it was in German, but German was not a transliteration it was in actual German. But my memory says it was in Hungarian.

I have a Hungarian Kitzur Hilchos Nidah written I recall by Rav Vider of Neiredhaza hy"d reprinted after the war. I will send Tzig a copy.

5) I have even a more interesting Torah pamphlet published in Satmar by Reb Yosef Grunwald Pupa Rav 'after' the war in 1946! with a small mention that his wife and children? were murdered, almost as if like nothing just happened. (I have to recheck but for sure in 1946)

Yosef 718

Not a Harry said...

צאינה וראינה was recited by the zugerke too. Of course the luach is in Magyar, the frauen didn't know לשה"ק. Even בעיתיאנקיב wasn't kosher.

Daas Baal Habayis said...

Yosef 718
"1) Meloche after shkiah "IS" a Hungarian accepted minhag up to the war according to Chasam Sofer Tshuva 80"
you are wrong that it was the norm accepted by all Hungarians,please read well I wrote ALL.
I will not beancount all the poskim on this amtter and put it on a scale,but you see that many poskim as the Shevulai Duved, Levushai Mordechai, Zichron Yehuda (CS Family) Toldois Shmuel (best and famous sefer in pre war hungary on Zmanim, all write to stop melochas before the shekia..
I am not listing the Marshag, since he was influenced by the Rav immensely and was very chasidic, eventough a talmid of the biggest talmid of the CS.
On top of this you ignore intentionally a Luach that was put out by a Rav from one of the most prominent Hungarian rabbinical family, himself a Rav in the chasidic division a prestigious city, big possek, leading a large yeshiva in pre war Europe, all based on a luach of as early as 1911 put out by his uncle himself a Talmid of Talmidai CS, all stating to light candles and be mekabel shabos by shekia.
You are correct on the CS, but it all changed thru the last few years.

Daas Baal Habayis said...

Yosef 718
"4) Maybe it was in German, but German was not a transliteration it was in actual German. But my memory says it was in Hungarian. "
The CS was a German born boy, later landed in Matersdorf as a Rav, which at that time the population spoke German too,
bottom line he had no relationship with the Hungarian language, as is more defined in his names for Gittin issues...
Again, I did not check it yet but I think that Franks translation to German, was Hebrew buchshataben, not Latin words.

Daas Baal Habayis said...

Yosef 718
" So does Belz, so does bobov"
in our dan and age,there are 2 Belz,
1 Belz that belong to Belzer chasidim who follow Reb Aron of belz, and the Rebbe of today.
then you have the Belz that Stamar claims to own....
Both sides have complete different rulings in the name of belz...not only on sunset, they differ on many many issues

Kovner said...

The editor of CIS Publishing told me that in one of the holocaust novels which he printed there was a chapter about how the author spent months traveling through Hungary looking for a wedding dress. This happened while Polish Jewry was being decimated. He didn't have a heart to print such a chapter and deleted it. It's unbelievable in what a state of denial Hungarian Jewry was.

radomsker said...

dear kovner, hitler never arrived in Palestine (though he came close) or England and they were close to Nazi occupied territories - but life goes on..The Hungarians were in denial as Polish refugees told them what will happen if hungary is invaded

Anonymous said...

It's not denial, it's very human.

As a volunteer I visited many devastated frum communities after hurricane Sandy. The suffering of heimishe chasidishe families was immense and mind boggling, but life -weddings, bar mitzvahs, etc, went on normally in Boro Park, as if nothing 'is' happening.

The only people who came to help physicallly were busloads of litvaks from Baltimore. Of course the Chaverim, Masbia, Shomrim, KJ Hatzala, Agudah, etc did amazing work. But the average person living just a mere few miles away never lifted an eyebrow, let alone a finger.

I'm referring to harrowing stories of heimishe kinderlech!

An asifas rabonim was called by the old Rav Meiseles of Sea Gate a survivor himself. Very few came I WAS THERE, those who came were mostly mishpocha of R Meisels. But what they saw couldn't be fathomed.

I then realized how the Hungarian Jews behaved during WW2, and I told this to as many people who care to listen. Human beings are complicated creatures.

Yosef 718

Son of Survivor said...

Reb Yosef
Can you explain why 1000's upon 1000's showed up by the Rubashkin events in Brooklyn Lakewood etc..?
I feel that people looked at it as puting the cornerstone for a new Shnor organization, something massive is being established now.Like a new Kupath Hair or Vaad Harabonim. I am not saying that it was correct, but looking at this Miezels family...at the helm of the operation, people felt that way..wide brims orators, good at amusing you and eulogizing.
But Europe was all different.... nobody gave a damn if his neighbor had food on his table. there were always some outstanding Jews that were like angels, but the Matzav was bad,chasidim were a little better, I heard too much from the old doir....all of them told me that our generation are tzadikim in that aspect.