Tuesday, May 24, 2005

The chain

It has been posted recently on several blogs, that the golden chain of Chabad and the Rebbeyim has been broken, due to the descendants leaving the fold, at least partially. Of course, like any other Rabbinic family from that far back much can be and has been lost. However, I aim to prove that lack of children is a major factor as well. We'll do this sowly, and from the last generation up.

כ"ק אדמו"ר והרבנית זי"ע - CHILDLESS
כ"ק אדמו"ר הריי"צ נ"ע - ONE GRANDCHILD, NO GREAT GRANDCHILDREN
הרה"ח ר מנחם מענדל בן אדמו"ר מהר"ש נ"ע - CHILDLESS
הרה"ח ר' בן-ציון בן הרה"ק ר' אברהם מקישינעוו חותן הריי"צ נ"ע -CHILDLESS

and besides, who am I to defend the "Tsarske Familie"?

33 comments:

Anonymous said...

You can add the Rebbe Rashab only had 1 child (and it was considered a miraculous event at that)

Anonymous said...

And R' Levik: Three sons, only one grandchild - the Rebbe's niece.
Are there any children from the Yisroel Arye Leib's daughter?

Anonymous said...

Mrs. Dalia Roitman the daughter of R. Leibel Schneerson (aka Mark Gurari)has 2 sons one is called Ariel (after his grandfather) and I do not remember the name of the other.
They are not observant Jews.
While the rebbe was sick in the period of 1992-1994 an Israeli reporter tracked down the family.
Under questioning rav halperin of Beth Israel in Jslm said that the kids could eventually assume their rightful place in the Chabad leadership !
I have been told that the family room of Mrs. Roitman in Rehovot has a large photo of her father hanging there.

Anonymous said...

According to SEFER MAHARASH written by the rebbe himself , and according to the other Yichus books of the Schneersohn family (edited by M. Slonim and the one by Rav Halperin of Beth Israel Jslm)the RAZA had 1 daughter who married a man called Wolfson. I presume they had children as well.
The RAZA was a fascinating man who owned real property in Vitebsk . He was active in communal matters there and was leader of the anti Zionist forces there.

Anonymous said...

Who is Mr. Roitman, and what does he do?
Also, who is, and what happened to, Dalia's mother - Leibel's wife?

Anonymous said...

Mr. (Dr. ???) Roitman as well as Mrs. Dalia are both scientists at the Weitzman Institute in Rehovot. They are divorced. She may have married since.
Dalia's mother was a Polish Jewish woman who died several years ago in London . This was reported in KFAR HABAD magazine. It seems she did not remarry.
Following her husband's untimely death she taught secular studies in the Lubavitz school in London, UK.
By the way Label was once a book dealer in Tel Aviv.

Anonymous said...

Dalia did visit the Rebbe with her son, whose sandek was Reb Chatzkel Besser, the "liason" between the Rebbe and Leibel's family. I remember hearing from Reb A. Shemtov, that the Rebbe told her דו זאלסט זעהן רעדן אידיש מיט די קינדער, ווייל דאס וועט האלטען די קשר מיט די משפחה", A lesson to us all.

Anonymous said...

Was Dalia's mother religious?
I once heard - but I am skeptical about the truth of the comment - that she was opposed to her husband having kevura kehalacha; only that the Rebbe arranged it to be done al-pi-Torah, without her knowledge or consent.
Do you know if there is any truth to this?

Anonymous said...

In Halperin's book about the Ze'ezaim o the Baal haTanya, we are treated to a photo of the brith mila of Ariel Roitman with Reb Chaskel Besser acting as sandek and we are now told he was the "liason". Why did the rebbe an uncle, need a outsider as a liason in relating to his only niece ?
As a single , I know Dalia visited the rebbe several times , once coming in a flashy sports car.
It does not sound that her mom was frum or traditional.

Anonymous said...

Since they lived in Israel the Rebbe could not attend their Simchos. Hence, the "liason" who did travel and I believe was some sort of relation to them, could make personal appearances.

Anonymous said...

Besser's wife was some very very distant cousin.I think her maiden name was Ludmir.
Perhaps there was some other connection that fails to meet the eye.
By the way another latter day Schneersohn who apparently had no children was Reb Ben Zion Schneersohn of Kishinev, the brother in law of the Rayaatz. He too visited CH and 770 several times.

Anonymous said...

Yes, I was gonna say that but I wasn't 100% sure, thank you anonymous. So what's the story with the no children, any theories?

Anonymous said...

The fact is that the Alter Rebbe has many descendants frum and frei, however it seems that the Lubavitch faction of his descendants 'freid out' mostly.Interesting to note that the current Satmar Rebbe is also a descendant.

The Mahara'sh had a daughter who married a R'Horenstein, whose son,Mendel married Shaina Rayat'zs daughter.They perished in Treblinka with an adopted son.I wonder what happened with the other Horensteins.?
To the other posters, please add some details about the descendant of bais horav.Stam an interesting factoid:There is an Israeli filmaker,frei,Uri Barba'sh is his name.He is a descendant of the Alter Rebbe.I think the name 'Barba'sh' is an acronym of ben r' shneour.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

We have been through this elsewhere, malach. The descendants of the Alter Rebbe are no different than any other Rabbinic family over the generations, but you choose to ignore that. If you think otherwise, please provide some proof to your claim.

Anonymous said...

1. The current Satmarer rebbe along with the Bobover rebbes are all grandchildren of the last Razferter rebbe Reb Sholom Laizer who was the son of the Divre Chaim and son in law of Rav Mordechai Dov Twerski of Hornesteipel who himself was also a son in law of the Divre Chaim. Reb Mordechai Dov was a desc. of the MItteler rebbe.
2.The Horenstein's "adopted" child was their nephew whose parents had died.
3. I do not know Uri Barbash. The son in law of rabbi Shmaryahu Noach Schneersohn of Bobroisk was Rabbi Barbash. I have never seen an indication that "mei-atzmo" he was also an eynikel of the Baal HaTanya.
Barbash's children made it to eretz israel. One son was a chashuve chassidic Jew in Tel Aviv who was of all things a Lelever chasid .He is mentioned in an old bio of the Lelever rebbe wand is described as someone rawuy to be a rebbe himself.
His children are also in Israel. In 1969 when I was in 770 a Mister Barbash mBeth Horav was honored in 770 on Simchath Teyre with a kibbud.
I believe Barbash is roshe teivoth ben reb Baruch Shalom. But I am not certain.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

You might say that the connection to Chabad only stayed with those who stressed the importance of Limud HaChassidus. Reb Shmaryohu Noach had a Yeshiva and raised many fine Talmidim, but those were the exception and were Geonim in their own right. The Rashab foresaw the dark clouds over Russia/Belarus/Lithuania and took the step to establish the Yeshivas Tomchei Tmimim.

Anonymous said...

Hirshel,
Where have I chosen to 'ignore' the fact that 'bais horav' is similar to other rabbinic dynasties?
I stated that, from what is known to me at least and I MAY BE WRONG,the Lubavitcher descendants 'freid out'
Are you claiming differently?If so I would like to see a list.
The Alter Rebbes 'chassidishe eyniklach' such as Satmar,Bobov, Twersky seem to have been more 'matsliach' in keeping the kids in the fold.
As you claim that the bais horav is no different than other dynasties regarding 'freing out' oib azoi, kan haben shoiel, why than do Lubavitchers feel that their derech is the best?The bottom line is that they remained frum no better than the misnagdim.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

So that's where I showed you that those who did send their sons to Yeshivos were Matzliach, and those who preferred to continue family feuds were not.

Anonymous said...

Let me change the topic for a secundele : Doesanyoneout there know of a audio tape of the Rayaatz ?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

why, did BG play one for you?:)

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I would ask all bloggers to please choose a name, any name, just don't use anonymous, PLEASE!

Anonymous said...

I heard once that Yosef Krinsky (Yudel's brother) has a tape of the Frierdike Rebbe, but I dont think it is that clear. I guess I can ask him next time I see him.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Tapes, and all forms of modern technology, were considered "moderen" and were shunned by Chassidim. The Rebbe saw its use and encouraged its use.

Anonymous said...

Bere Gourary said there were"wire tapes" of his grandfather but did not have such.I believe this is an old method of tape recording.
I am just asking people to ask if sucha tape is benimtzoh.
Hearing the Minchos Elozor on a video tape calling upon American jews to observe Shabbes is really an exciting experience too.

Anonymous said...

The Michas Eluzar clip was played on the news reels in the theatres at the time.
I seem to remember that American reporters attending the Munkatcher Chassaneh asked the M.E. if he had a message for American Jewry, and that was his statement. They then played it with the news-reel in the US.

Anonymous said...

Bere Gouary once spoke about the importance his uncle attached to the use of the microphone. He the uncle The next rebbe wanted his father in law to be heard through a micro phone. It sems that Barry did not care much for this so they mildly disagreed over the microphone at one occassion.

Anonymous said...

Sch. What do you to bring out with the stroy of the microphone?

Anonymous said...

Chaim,
Who is Sch.?

Anonymous said...

There are other Schneersons that are quite frum. I have met R' Sholom Ber Schneerson who lives in Crown Heights, though I am not sure of his ancestry. From what I've been told, he is a close cousin to the Rayatz family. There is also the family of R' Boruch Shimon Schneerson ZT"L, Rosh Hayeshiva of yeshivas Chebin in Yerushalayim. His father was R' Yosef Moshe, son of R' Nochum Zalman. R' Nochum Zalman was married to the oldest daughter of R' Mordechai Dov Twerski of Hornesteipel. He himself was also a grandson of the Tzemach Tzedek. This was not a large family, but there are others who remained frum. It is interesting to note that although frum and chassidish, they adopted minhagim of other ancestors, dressing in chassidishe levush that is different from that of Chabad.

Chabad Historian said...

R' Mendel, the Rebbe Maharash, DID in fact have at least one daughter, by the name of Chana Ozerman. I don't know if she has any descendants or who they are.

Benyamin said...

Can I just ask a slightly unrelated question for a moment? Does anyone know what happened to Yisrael Aryeh Leib's theoretical physics paper? I know the Rebbe wanted it completed and published.

HodofHod said...

@Benyamin

It was published in the Journal of Approximation Theory under the name "Mark Gurari." This was the name used by R' Yisroel Aryeh Leib to escape the Soviets. Footnote on the first page from Professor Rosenbloom confirms that this is the right one.

Titled "The location of eigenvalues and eigenvectors of complex matrices" it was published in volume 22, issue 4 of the Journal, which was the year 1978. Available in it's entirety online here: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/00219045/22/2

ezrapp said...

The Rebbe Mahara"sh's son MM had a daughter Sara that is buried next to my grandmother at the Chabad chelke in Tzfas.