Wednesday, May 25, 2005

Speaking of which...


It seems like Chaim Shaulson favors the underdog, most people do. I don't believe every position he takes is solely for the money, he probably has a rebellious streak, (OK, a very wide streak) within him that wants to correct society's wrongdoings. I don't think that the Unger faction wishes
for him to take their side, but them's the breaks.


Something within me tells me not to support the Ungers simply because of his relationship with Lubavitch as a youngster in Crown Heights, something he learned from his father. However, the non-conformist within me has convinced me otherwise. Besides, those shiny Bekishes BZH wears give me the shakes.


45 comments:

Anonymous said...

There is no reason for Lubavitch as a group to support anyone.
Individuals should be free to support or better put "root for" the Bobover rebbe of their choice.
It is clear even to the blind (not the deaf) that Reb Morechai Duvid is a lamdan and an excellent baal masbir who wishes to take Bobov to new places in terms of lomdus, chassiduth and ruchniuth.The pictures of him indicate a serious person who as a nother great rebbe before him was a ble to be memale kol almin and at the same time be a great anav (modest).
He is also bucking the establishment in Bobov to return this chassiduth to its glory days of the Divre Chaim and the great Bobover yeshivoth in pre-war Poland.
I am with Reb Chaim Sauolson, I support Reb Mordeche Duvid.
I also think he may be the most creative figure in American chassiduth since the events of 1950 in CH...

Anonymous said...

Shaulson has done important service in terms of making the Charedi world transparent.
At times he goes over board and becomes the rodef himself.
And of course there are certain groups etc who for reasons known only to him, he refuses to touch. Currently he refuses to write about a son of a famous rebbe in B.P who has followed his father's derech and rebelled against him in public. Not a word.
Yet he does write about Bobov and about the Nitra dayan's views of the females of Williamsburg.
Most people have never read his paper. they believe that it is full of sex , violence and gossip. hardly the case, rather he writes the trtuh as he seees it. A truth that the Charedi leaders do not want their followersto read about.
So if I have to choose between Sandor Deutsch's old paper DER YID and the NEW FACE , I'Ll take a panim chadashoth.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Lubavitch did not take an official stand, although there were delegations that went to be Menachem Ovel BenTzion. He was however the only male sitting Shivah, so that does not prove much. I have heard that BZ is quite proud of his Chabad heritage, and mentions it at every appropriate opportunity, something I did not hear in his father's name.

Anonymous said...

Rabbi Ben Zion may be proud of his Chabad heritage, but he is also very close to Satmar. Indeed even his brother the late rebbe was much closer to Satmar than rav Shlomo the father was.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

At the Shivah he mentioned that his father came to the Rebbe Rayatz and told him that he'd like to move to Israel. The Rebbistive is not for him, he wants to leave. The FR told him, while banging his finger on his desk: "Do zolstu bleiben"! The rest is history.

Anonymous said...

That's interesting . Because right after the War Reb Shlomo Halberstam did not wish to continue the Bobover rebbistve.There is much to be said here , but not in this forum.
This was very upsetting to his cousin the Kluizenberger rav , who apparently never forgot this fact.
In fact the few remaining Bobover talmidim were prepared to name the Vaitzener rav (later of Chicago)Rav Meisels as the new Bobover rebbe in London.He was a eynikel of the first Rav Shlomo Bobover who started this branch of Zandz.
I can not tell you why they did not go for Reb Shlomo's brother (Reb Chaskel Duvid) who was Rebbe material himself, or even his son (R, Naftoli Zvi) as the new rebbe.
The Vaitzener rav plotted a campaign so as to force reb Shlomo to accept the rebbistve.This in fact happened.
By the time he came here Bobover lore has it , that he was firmly committed to function as the rebbe of Bobov and even brought his son Reb Naftoli Zvi who was then living in Palestine to the USA to assist him.(the reverse of the suggestion here).
In reading the various obituaries for Rav Naftali recently , I never noted talk of the father moving to Israel. So the Rayaatz hot gepeylt !

Anonymous said...

where can you purchase the panim chadoshot

Anonymous said...

The Rebbe Rayatz was not the only one to tell the Bobover this.
The Viznitzer Rebbe is supposed to have said the exact same thing, and I believe he even gave him his own rebbishe cane and told R' Shlomo that he has no right to give up the rebbistve, for he has a duty to his forebears.
Also, it is a known fact that BZH orders and makes sure to get a copy of every Chassidus Mivueres that Heichal Menachem in BP puts out.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Anon: check the "man on a mission" post

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Meir:
was the Viznitzer Rebbe living in America at that time?

Anonymous said...

HT,
I was just wondering the same thing - I don't recall the circumstances of the account however.

Anonymous said...

The Vishnitzer rebbe, I presume we are talking about rav Chaim Meyer'l
Hager later of Bnai brak. He seems to have spent much time in the United states after the war .I believe he reisded in williamsburg. Other rebbes who were here and later went to Israel include his nephew the Vivhever rav Rabbi Hager, the Sadigerer rebbe later of Tel Aviv .
I also believe that the Satmarer rebbe encouraged the Bobover to accept the post as rebbe.

Anonymous said...

I get the feeling that the two Bobover rebbes and factions will be known as the shvartzer, and the veisser, respectively (,not unlike Slonim). Those who seek a record breaking Sukkah and extravagant purim shpiels will flock to the latter and the rest who seek something more, will stick with the shvartzer!

Anonymous said...

I was recently speaking to a middle aged rebbe who is a friend of mine. We were discussing his grandfather who was a well known rebbe in the US. He told me that his father and uncle both have different , mesores about his grandfather and his peuloth and even minhogim.
The main accepted version is that of his uncle who is by far better known than my friend's father . But the father was the bechor and would have more knowledge of family lore and traditions.
My point is that 1 single rebbe can produce contracdictory "uvdos" in the course of 50 years.

Anonymous said...

It's not that simple in Bobov. The wealthy and middle class people support Ben Zion.The street people and politicos back him too. Many of the teachers etc have been forced to back him.
The RaMaD has the support of most of the bachurim , the chassidic element of Bobov , those who are interested in learning and striving.
The future looks very well for the RaMaD.
Once the RaMaD gets a shul , he will also start attracting fremde (which he already has) as he is a top notch lamdan and is not hesitant to give numerous shiurim .

Anonymous said...

Anon,
Look at the 2 Vizintzers. They have quite different approaches - and both are children of R' Chaim Meyr'l.
Your friend - he wouldnt be YH, would he?

Anonymous said...

Yes, I was talking about R' CM. I imagine it was in the US, but I honestly don't remember.

I was told that the RaMaD was holding court in the old Armon Terrace on New Utrecht & 52 Street - Is that not the case any longer?

Anonymous said...

The problem with Bobov is that they do not "fargin" Unger anything. They tried to throw him ot of Shul, hoping that would work, never dreaming that such a large crowd would leave with him. He is one of the "rising stars" in the Chassidic world.

Anonymous said...

Reb BZH is a also a tomim, he learned in Lubavitcher Yeshiva for a short while on Bedford & Dean.

Anonymous said...

the story with bobover rebbe not wanting to become rebbe was in london and not in the us/

i think rc"m from viznitz was there that time.

Anonymous said...

the crowed of rb"z and rm"s look so difrent that i dont understnad how they lived in the same beis hmedresh for so long

the crowd in 48 looks like the riches and politicians, lot of trimmed beards. the crowd by rm"d looks so much serious so much not the boboverws we are used to see as the modern Hasidic crowed

Anonymous said...

staying on topic the RaMaD lived in crown hights. also the bobover rebbe was oppset on the lubavitcher rebbe for not comming to be him menachem uoovel when his mother past away in the 70ties (as we know the rebbe had a self imposed gulos and did not go out of ch for over 40 years... if it aint true let us know)so he did the proper thing and did not go back as we all know the halocho of loieg leroish

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Did the Bobover come be menachem Ovel in 5725, when the Rebbe sat after his mother?

Anonymous said...

To CE (yedidi habilti yaduah ?) Yes it is YH, who is a friend of mine.I changed the facts a tad for the sake of simplicity.
As far as the Lubavitcher rebbe not leaving CH for over 40 years, I understand that in fact he went to several doctors in NYC either with the rebbetzin or by himself. I also understand he went to the air port in regards his niece Mrs. Dalia Roitman.
And then of course there was Gan Israel.

Anonymous said...

Kurenitzer,
I was hoiz bachur for YH's father :-)

Anonymous said...

CE -The father of YH is a low key rebbe a man I like very much !

Anonymous said...

Kurenitzer,
Indeed he is an unusal man.
I haven't been in contact with him for around 8 years now, but I still have a lot of respect for him, and I'm greatful to him for the many things that he did for me.
You know him well?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I would ask all bloggers to please choose a name, any name, just don't use anonymous, PLEASE!

bpunbound said...

CE,

I concur, indeed an unusual man.

And who's fault is it anyways that you haven't been in contact with him for 8 years?

Anonymous said...

Its very interesting to note where the former residence of the Bobover rebbe in Crown Heights was.

It was on the nort-western corner of St Johns st and Brooklyn ave.


You can see it here:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=st+johns+st+and+brooklyn+ave&ll=40.671816,-73.945434&sll=40.650000,-73.950000&spn=0.005386,0.007918&sspn=0.245117,0.467004&t=k&hl=en

Anonymous said...

bpunbound said...
"And who's fault is it anyways that you haven't been in contact with him for 8 years?"

Why do you ask?

Anonymous said...

No I do not know the rebbe of B in B. very well I do know YH pretty well, a all round fine man and intellegent too.

Anonymous said...

Wasnt someone going to post subscription info for punim-chadushos on Monday?

Anonymous said...

the Rebbe of B. in B. also lived in CH. What was his relationship with Lubavitch and the Rebbe?

bpunbound said...

CE,

I was just curios. Why stay out of touch for so long with someone you admire and respect. Is he that inaccessible? Or do you give up easily?

bpunbound said...

I understand the B in B left CH a bit TO'd at the LR. A difference of opinion regarding RE.

Anonymous said...

Bpunbound,

Your statement regarding the hard-feelings between the B of B and the LR are true, but a little simplistic perhaps. I believe there was more to it than that, maybe being a Lakewood talmud didn't help either.

As to my relationship with him... We all move on in life.
And I sincerely hope there are no hard feelings (towards my defection) on his end.

bpunbound said...

CE,

Perhaps true, but the B of F also spent time in the 'woods and doesn't harbor such feelings. On the contrary, he is quite sympathetic and warm to CH"BD.

As to hard feelings, I couldn't say. But you're not off the hook with that "moving on" stuff. A phone call now and then would be nice.

Anonymous said...

Bpunbound,
I must say that the B of B was always respectful, and never spoke against Chabad per se.
When referring to the Lubavitcher Rebbe, he would refer to him as "The Rebbe" (without qualification), albeit somewhat humorously. I don't know about his older son's sentiments, but his younger son is warm & sympathetic to Chabad, so I don't think that the home had an overt anti-Chabad stance.
The B did refer to Rav Shach as the gadol-hador, and was moderately critical of modern-day Chabad (not that it was discussed often); he did not accept many Chabad historical traditions (to be expected). On occasion I tried, but unfortunately, I never did get to the heart of the matter (every time something would happen to end the conversation), as to his points of opposition. I do believe the RE issue was surely a part of it, but I don't think that it sums it up.
Although is a very unconventional man, he did feel that he was part of, and somewhat defensive of, the main-stream Heimishe world - and thus aligned with those who oppose Lubavitch.
I don't know if his brother's feelings are all that different, I suspect he differs only in degree, and in the words he chooses.

As to me placing an occasional phone call, I don't have much to say. I am sure they don't stay up at night wondering about me, and it would be an uncomfortable & uneccesarry conversation.

Anonymous said...

who is b of b? ch?

bpunbound said...

CE,

the brother is quite fond of CH"BD, well versed even in Likkutei Diburim (at least his sons are) and very fond of CH"BD Niggunim. He certainly is not uncomfortable, which is the feeling I got from the "brother, zol er gezunt zein".

Furthermore, how are you so sure who they do or don't wonder about? And at night, noch dertzi.

Anonymous said...

BP,
I hear ya (and I don't know the brother all that well).

As to my lack of contact, you wrote:
"How are you so sure who they do or don't wonder about?..."
Do YOU know otherwise, or are you just out to drei-ah-kup?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous,
Um.. you'll have to work on it on your own - if we had wanted to spell it out, don't you think we would have?

bpunbound said...

CE,

I've been know to drei a Kup or two in my time.

But you were the one that said he is "sure they don't stay up at night wondering about me". I'm not sure they are, how can you be so sure the're not.

Avremele said...

Anonymous said...

Reb BZH is a also a tomim, he learned in Lubavitcher Yeshiva for a short while on Bedford & Dean.
Thursday, May 26, 2005 1:14:00 PM

My father spent 9 years there. NOBODY refers to him as a tomim. Just barely a Vach. (Vosik v'Chosid for the illiterate.) I believe being a tomim means that you learned in Yeshiva Gedola.