Sunday, June 8, 2008

Imrei Emes Succession

The talk is all over the place. I have yet to see a single Jewish publication that hasn't made a big trask about the 60th Yohrtzeit of the Imrei Emes of Ger, zt"l. I haven't seen the Yated or the Satmar Yiddish papers yet, so you'll have to fill me in on those ones. But all others, The Hamodia, Mishpacha, Kfar Chabad, Sha'ah Tovah, BaKehillah and Algemeiner Journal all have something or other. And rightfully so; rightfully so. There was somewhat of a different angle in the BaKehillah article - although I have yet to see it myself, only heard about it second hand. It's the talk about the succession of the IM - a topic not often discussed.

It seems like the IM had seen enough of the daily living in Poland and decided to make Aliyah. He encouraged Aliyah among his Chassidim - despite what Tzemach and Scotty say - and soon was about to lead by example. He considered it a done deal, so much so that on his last visit (1935, I believe) he kept only one day Yom Tov, KeMinhag Bnei Eretz Yisroel. That's right, he was going to leave the untold thousands of Gerrer Chassidim behind and settle in the Holy Land. Permanently. The ground work for the Gerrer Yishuv had been set in Yerushalayim some 9 years earlier with the establishment of the Gerrer Yeshivah "Sefas Emes." Upon his visit to the Holy Land in 1935 another Yeshivah was established in Tel Aviv for those living there not wanting to travel all the way to the Holy City. So the only thing that remained was what to do with the thousands who would remain without a leader. The answer: Harav Reb Moshe Betzalel, hy"D. He would lead the flock.

You may think this is crazy talk, and that never would this happen. Gerrers deny this vehemently, as if there was something wrong with it. One Gerrer told me "RMB was a Temimusdiker, an erlicher, but not a Rebbe." Meaning, that the IM would never leave the Hanhogoh in his hands. Well, let's just see. There's a very well known Tzavo'oh of the IM that calls for his son the BY to succeed him. That same note originally names RMB as successor, but makes mention of the שערוריות, the upheavals if you will, and that RMB was no longer with us, having died AK"H at Treblinka. The common perception was that RMB was to succeed him upon his passing, but the article seems to say that he was meant to take over in '35, when the IM was about to leave for Palestine. RMB was of the opinion that he was somewhat to "blame" for the Rebbe not leaving Poland, and that he needed a "tikun" for his "aveiroh."


Tzemach Atlas said...

Why can you make any "trask" about Boteach article? You are dishonest Yone.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

why would I care what he says, even if I DID see it?!

Tzemach Atlas said...

reporter covers and/or gives opinion, but you are in the business of censorship not reporting.

you should care about what he says if you really care for Lubavitch as you proclaim. But you don't and that's the point. Shoving things under the carpet gornisht helfen...

The Bray of Fundie said...

was there a theory that after the Holocaust, with Rav Moshe Betzalel HY"D a pile of ashes in Treblinka that anyone other than the Bais Yisroel take over?

Anonymous said...

The Tzig
You would care about what anybody wrote as long as it had some truth.
You don't care about truth, you care about team Lubavitch.In the long run however quashing truth is bad for your team.See for example your team was not honest about the Meshichist problem and it came back and bit you in the rear end.

The Bray of Fundie said...

One of the things I adore about this blog are the pics both old and contemporary.

The crowd being melaveh the Imrei Emes looks very different from the one being melaveh the Kopischnitzer and Vishnitzer Rebbes that you depicted yesterday.

Just an observation. Any thoughts?

Anonymous said...

I liked Shmulie's article. In Shma we say "v'oahto" "sheyehei sheym shomayim misaheiv al yodcho". Even Hashem k'vyochol needs the Jews to make him beloved by all.

The Rebbe depends on his chasiddim to be nisahev lechol. "klum nosati lecho gedulo elo bishvil yisroel".

The Bray of Fundie said...

I disliked Shmuley's article for the following reason:

he critiques the Ego and lack of bitul Hayesh but IMO he is the biggest egomaniac Lubavitch, and maybe K'lal yisroel, churned out over the last 30 years.

Forgive me for being skeptical of his sincerity but his every move seems to be dictated by how best to maximize his own exposure, fame and income.

He's really one to speak about ego. A true נאה דורש ואין נאה מקיים

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

The Bray makes a very good point, especially in the face of the question we posed as to why the chassidim in the Vizhnitzer picture were all modern. Here the IM is in Marienbad too, so why the difference???

Anonymous said...

forget about what happened then. the NOW is much more WOW..

Anonymous said...

1. Unless you acrually study the facts and figures of how many Gerer actually emigrated to Israel and the attitude of their Rebbe towards frum emigration in general, you speak without any documentation at all. Stam wods mean amost nothing.
During the War the brother of Ben Gurion a frum Jew from Polotzk wrote a sharp pamphlet against the Imre Emes on this very subject. The followers of Ger destroyed all the copies of this kuntres.Several survived and the auhtor's daughter wrote an article in HADOAR about 10 years ago describing the whole story.
Ger numbered over 100,000 souls exactly how many made aliyah ?
What was the Gerer attitude to the Yabloner rebbe and Kfar Chassidim ?
Towards Poali Aguda and its moshaviim ?
These are subjects that need careful investigation, and then only then can you make any statements like you do.
Presently all you can say is that compared to Belz, Bobov, Munktach, Koloshitz , and others the Gerer encuraged aliyah. But thats not saying much is it ?
2. After the petirah there was talk of the Imre Emes of making Rav Simche Bunim rebbe . He refused leaving Israel for several years of golus in Belgium.
In the early 1950's the Satmarer rav worried over the dismal Chassidic state of the Gerer in Brooklyn tried to convince Reb Simche Bunim to come to the USA as the rebbe of Ger in the US. That was not to be.

Anonymous said...


That's a lot of information. Please provide some sources, espcecially for the fact that the Satmarer Rov was concerned about the Gerers.

Anonymous said...

I asked Lipshutz(moshe lipshutz brother) the Gerer guy in Satmar ,he told its a lie and never could happen

Anonymous said...

I only (reluctantly) read the Hamodia in Hebrew. I was highly disappointed.

Most who write about the IE write about the atmospherics around him "the thousands" "the bochorim" "the great ת"ח who were seen there" blah blah blah...very precious little about the man and his deeds.

Here we are talking about a giant in Torah that is self evident in his writings, etc.

I have my own theory why this is so so the anonymity of the net lets one like me state the 'obvious', which is; "The IE was no Sfas Emes!".

One can go to Litvish, Satmar, Sefardi... מסיבות, and there is a good chance one would hear a good deep vort from the SfasEmes. As a matter of fact if the speaker has ציפלויגענע פאות. the better the show, when he swings his hand and פארקנייטשט זיך די שטערן un zohgt a voohrt fun the SE.

When has anybody reading this blog ever heard a vort given over from the IE. Please don't misunderstand me. I did read many of his מכתבים and the גאונות of the IE is obvious.

While he lived to be very old stories עובדות with a מסור השכל are shockingly just a handfull. So in the special Israeli supplement on the IE I found only the article of אהרן סורסקי somewhat worthwhile.

The rest is about everything "around" the IE. In short I am a great believer in Klal Yisroel as the ultimate sieve of what is worthwhile and compelling for the ages.

There a very good reason why those who learn, love to qoute a Brisker Toire not say Shoiel U'Mayshiv. Not for one minute will I say that the Brisker Rav was a greater ת"ח. His work is more popular for obvious reasons. Not the least which; originality and geshmack-keit.

The same goes for the IE his role and his times are far more interesting than person himself and his ח"ת.

Anybody wanna shoot me? vot can I do?

Which brings me to his successors. I won't waist any body's time with the merits of the seforim of
בית ישראל לב שמחה
the פני מנחם was something else he was the real thing. but was נפטר to soon, so in order for the present Rebbe to solidify his position he is on a "slash-and-burn" campaign to dumb down his tzibur by prohibiting the study of לומדות. And the terrible silencing of ר' שאול.

This is my take on Gur and the massive ירידה I sense is going on.

Especially the robbing of the rest of us of having the תענוג רוחני of hearing Toire and חסידות from the giant ר' שאול.

יחי המפיל נפילים!

Yosef 718

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

א רענדל א ווארט


The Bray of Fundie said...

First you say:

I am a great believer in Klal Yisroel as the ultimate sieve of what is worthwhile and compelling for the ages.

then you say:

the present Rebbe to solidify his position he is on a "slash-and-burn" campaign to dumb down his tzibur by prohibiting the study of לומדות. And the terrible silencing of ר' שאול.

it's a stira. The people have voted with their feet and prefer Reb Yankel over Reb Shaul. Trust their instincts.

Ay you'll tayna that he "won it" on senority not merit? Well seniority settled nothing in Satmar nor, if we go back 50+ years in Lubavitch did it settle anything when the yoinger of the Frierdicker Rebbe's zy"a two aidims took over the Rabbisteveh.

Anonymous said...

My comments flew over your mind.

Weren't 100,000 (I don't know where the figure comes from) but lets assume the IE had that many followers , weren't they votes with the feet?

Why didn't you contradict me on the very IE we are discussing?

So let me give it to you in retail.

When I referred to Klal Yisroel. I wasn't referring to Gur. R. Yankev can have 1 million followers, but in the end for the 'ages' (לע"ד) he won't matter that much, for the reasons I stated. Klal-Yisroel is more than just Gur. NO?

They will decide his historical position in the constellation of stars among גדולי ישראל, and 1000 editions of Hamodia won't change a thing.

Yes the IE was greatת had many followers and according to hareidi propaganda he had more then his present day einikel, still my point is that klal yisroel is the decider here, and they decided that the IE 's Toirah is not for the ages in comparison to the Sfas Emes or to the few other גדולי ישראל who were זוכה to become the נחלה לישראל עמו!

The fact that R. Yankev has gazillions doesn't change anything of what I stated. His actions speak for themselves.

BTW: Please explain; if everybody voted already with their feet, vots he afraid of??

Maybe i'ts the kind of an election fit for Zimbabwe (where you arrest the opposition leader and declare that the people voted with the feet!)

גיוו מי א ברעיק!


Anonymous said...

By that litmus test Chabad has had 2, perhaps 3 historically significant Rebbes.

Anonymous said...

I would only count one.

I got the מאורות ש"ס for my chasan gift. In those days it was the best. (kind of gives away my age..)

So since Gurary was a partner in the shas he pushed in the comments and הערות of the צמח צדק. on the side and to the end of the גמרא.

Again, עפר אני תחת רגליו הק' והטהורים של הגה"ק הצמח צדק

Why didn't עוז והדר put in those things in their shas? Is there a bias toward the צמח צדק?

Only a diehard lubab would claim this. The answer לע"ד lies in the fact that it is klal yisroel who decides these matters. So no matter if the רש"ש beleived in גלגול or not. Most klal yisroel wants him in the גמרא, and the הערות of the צ"צ not. No amount of partisan 'pushing' will change that!

Even though in my mind the צ"צ was by far a greater personage etc.

So even if the בעל שם טוב shares the same yortziet with the IE, and I have yet to see a special edition of Hamodia on the Besht lekavod שבועות. Still the position of the Besht relative to the IE in the minds of klal Yisroel is not and will not change one bit!

So much for the power of media to change or affect these matters.


Anonymous said...

The IE Torah in Chassidus is far from his fathers also his Nigleh has a few nice Havrokot, but his gutsy Hanogeh is that made him the klal yisroel figure. Historically he won since all his detractors even Satmar implemented all the modern style Chadorim with secular studies and girls schools with more or less the same curriculum, orthodox newspapers and having a orthodox party as the CRC thats official a rabbinical org. but it serves more as a flag to all kind of people that are on 1 page with satmar ideology.

Anonymous said...

When the Lev Simcha died, DER YID reported the Satmarer Rebbe's request concerning the lev Simcha in the early 1950's.
I have also heard this from other people orally.
If its true , I certainly do not know.
The Lubavitcher rebbe was a big believer in newspapers and was want to say az es iz gedruckt schvartz auf vais, so too this story was printed in DER YID when the Lev Simcha was niftar.

Anonymous said...

As far as secular studies...

It just shows how ignorent historically most Haraidim are.

Secular studies were the law of land in Hungary and the Satmar Rebbe refers extensivly to that fact in his Shu"t Divray Yoel.

Not only was it the law, boys and girls studied together in public school and since Satmar Rebbe's father had a neutral opinion on it he states that it can't be banned as being you have to be מוסר נפש hence Reb Yoel knew how to read and write Hungarian.

(larger kehilos had the option under the law to organize Kehilah sponsered secular education but they had NO choice it was called compulsary education, which is the law in New York too!)

As far as newspapers go, your ignorance is the same. The frum in Hungary had there own media publications.

As far as girls education as the cirriculum being the same..again its strange that you should assert this, since Satmar girls are not even thought even "one" single pasuk of Tanach. Lashon Kodesh Teitch can not be tought on single words only in groups of words or entire sentenses.

To atribute all these changes to the IE is a strange indeed.

So why dont the jewish media claim all of these things to the IE ?


Anonymous said...

Halperin of London has that story also in his book Yofe Sichoson 2nd volume, but its hard to believe since the Lev Simcha was on the opposite end ideologically than Satmar Rov, I don't know if its true but that there was a rumor that he scolded a gerer chosid that had a Veyol Moshe in his house, he was also very friendly with Reb Mendel Kasher

Anonymous said...

As for Hungary say what ever you want real Chasidishe kids in towns in Unterland as Munkatch Klienvierdan were not going to these schools, they found there way to circumvent the law of the land . The oberland jews were all in that system thats why the Neanis and the Bachis are so hiemish between themselves,since they studied together in the schools on 1 bench,but the all subject of organised Chadorim (even with no secular studies)was a no no by all the ultra kanoishe rebbes as Reb Y D of belz he has a sharp letter to the Ruzhiner Rebbes against that, and even Gerer Chasidim didnt like the modern concept (according to Roishie Goilas Ariel)Also the war of the Munkatcher against the Mesivte of Warsaw was that he knows that they studied Secular stuff in there, If it would be the norm in Hungary then whats the fuss?
Regarding girls school, Satmar rov writes in his Veyoel that he is forced to break the barrier of his conservative non change mantra since in our day and age it is a nmust,only Laufer of Williamsburgh didn't send his ten daughters to school I am not saying that in Satmar schools it is taught Rashi on chumash but the concept of schools was a Shnierer concept( I think she was from a Belzer family) and built up by the Agudas Yisroel movement

Anonymous said...

Your are just arguing with facts (strange things that don't bend) Since both my parents and in-laws and uncles are ALL Chasidish Unterlandish I should reject what they tell/told me and accept your revisionist history.

(So when I will have the time I will supply Hirshel with the Proof (an other strange thing called proof).

Compulsory education was the law in Sighet and in Munkatch, and all attended!

Whats this fabricated letter to the Ruzhiner Rebbes you talking about ??? any source?

The Belzer Rebbe was opposed to JEWISH limudim for girls NOT secular! Which according to most/all poskim is assur.

The Munkatcher had to go till Warsaw to find secular study?

"Secular study" of Bocherem bothered him?? or the way they looked.

Satmar Rebbe writes in VaYoel about "secular" study for girls? Please Chapter and verse?

Your facts are mumble jumble I kind of give up on this back and forth of throwing nonsensical jibberish forgive me a great day...

Long Beach Chasid said...

Isnt it assur in most Chassidshe Communities to use the internet? With the exception of Chabad who are all of you commenting like you have a plethora of inside knowledge on what they groups were thinking 60 years ago. Is this all based off of internet research? Im curious because I dont think there are any actual Ger Chassidim or any other Chassidim to defend what is being said about them because they dont use the internet.

Enlighten me if Im foolish.

Anonymous said...

Regarding the Torah of the Imre Emes vis a vis the Torah of his father, the Sfas Emes:
Anybody with the least amount of intelligence knows that all the writings and chiddushim of the IE was lost during the war (as were some of the ksavim of the SE) The little bit we have is what some chassidim wrote.

Anonymous said...

The Imrei Emes moved to Israel, (he made 5 trips between the 2 World Wars to Israel), and even kept 1 day Yomtov. Then - the Gerrer Beis Din back in Ger made a psak requiring him to return to his Chasidim in Poland.

It is known that everyone who came to him asking about moving to Eretz Yisroel during the years before the Holicaust got his encouragement. 100,000 Chasidim would come to the Rebbe for Yomtov. Once his son (don't remember who, perhaps the Lev Simcha)was overheard saying - How will we get 100,000 people to Eretz Yisroel?