Sunday, October 18, 2009

R' Shlomo Lorencz, ע"ה

With Reb Lazer...


Anonymous said...

How can one speak of a gadol byisrael like that, just Reb ....??

I have a problem with Chabad, from the Rebbe down disrespecting people recognised as gedolei yisrael.

How can the Rebbe claim to have more ahavas yisrael when he talked about the Satmar Rebbe as a "shpigel brecher" and taint all Satmar with the same brush post Harav Mendel Vechter incident, yet when Rebbetzin Channa gets bashed within an inch of her life, it is "an isolated incident, by a few individuals".....

I still don't understand the not sleeping in a suka shita, which caused the Rebbe to say that anyone who fights with him is fighting with the Alter Rebbe.

Can someone show me any Rebbe anywhere that showed disrespect to the Alter Rebbe, the way Nasi Doreinu did about other gedolei yisrael both current and past ???

Lastly can anyone resolve the stira between chabad websites and hamodia. When the Lelover Rebbe lived in Brooklyn, did he live in Crown Heights or Boro Park and if he had a shtibel, was it in CH or BP ? I don't doubt he was closely mekushar with the Rebbe but ene side or the other is bending the truth....

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

so for Reb

Boruch ber
Isser Zalman

it's good enough, just not for Reb Lazer????

Anonymous said...

This one man caused lots of עגמת נפש to the Rebbe.

He cultivated his own crop of Gedolim, including one who turned out to be a monster, shrewdly using them as political pawns.

He fought head on with the Rebbe
about many issues such as...

מיהו יהודי
שלמות הארץ
חזות דתית

He puppeteered his "Gedolim' into creating a whole know Derech of
דעת תורה and השקפה to fit his agendas.

The millions of Goyim in Israel, the hundreds of lives lost and dire security situation due to שלמות הארץ, the legacy of hate and infighting amongst Frume Yidden are all testimony to the destructive legacy this one man has left.

In the age of political correctness and עולם הפוך....
it is important to remember what everyone knew Twenty years ago.....

Anonymous said...

!אין אלץ זענען די אונגארישע שולדיג

Anonymous said...

Hershel likes him because 1) he writes that R' Yeruchem liked the Hungarian buchorim 2) his journalistic honesty

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

how many Hungarian bochurim already learned in da Mir that we can say that RY "liked" them?

Anonymous said...

that's what I meant about journalstic integrity

Moshe Peltz said...

To the first 'Anonymous' putz posting here:
Are you smoking crack, you ignorant fool. In addition to all the prominently known 'Rebs' that Tzig correctly cited, there are also Reb Yakov, Reb Moshe, and a whole host of others whom Reb Lazer, quite frankly, wasn't in the league of- not remotely. Reb Lazer didn't stand up to a single name on that list in lomdus, kedusha, and certainly not in middos-tovos. If you have a 'problem' with that, go read an Artscroll book, or think about learning to use a dictionary.

Anonymous said...

Lilliputian will do!


SDR said...

Hey Peltz

"Reb Lazer, quite frankly, wasn't in the league of- not remotely."

I doubt you're in ANY position to judge.

From Wikipedia

Rav Meltzer became both a father figure and patron to the young Shach, even arranging his marriage with his niece, Guttel, in 1923. Rav Shach received rabbinical ordination from Rav Meltzer and from 1927 to 1932 taught in the Kletsk yeshiva.

The Brisker Rav, Rabbi Yitzchok Zev Soloveitchik once mentioned to a close student that since his father, Rabbi Chaim Soloveitchik, died, he had no one with whom to “talk in learning” until he met Rabbi Shach. [29] In his approbation to Avi Ezri, Rabbi Shach's work on the Rambam, the Brisker Rav wrote, "The gaon Rav Elozor Menachem, shlita, does not need any haskomoh from anyone, for he is a very great man and his power in Torah is great, [together] with acuity, thorough knowledge and a profound understanding of the pshat, on the level of the gedolim of our generation."

". . .since my relative, the Gaon Rav Eliezer Shach shlita joined the yeshiva as a maggid shiur, and I have it on reliable information from members of that Yeshiva that the learning is on a superior level especially now that my above relative has been accepted there, for he is great in Torah and influencing others in Torah "[30] - Rabbi Aron Kotler in a letter to Rabbi Chaim Ozer Grodzensky

You should ask HaRav Shach. His guiding, primary axiom is daas Torah."[32] "Yad, yad, peh, peh. His hand is my hand and his mouth is my mouth. Whatever he says or writes is as if it were coming from me." [33] "I do not know how HaRav Shach studies. But one thing I am sure of: his initial impression is the psak halocho. He does not have to look it up in any sefer, just ask him the question and the first thing he tells you is the psak halocho." [34] - the Steipler, Rabbi Yaakov Yisrael Kanievsky

"If someone takes the burden of the klal upon himself, it stems from concern for each and every individual. We find this with the gedolim. . . This means that although the foundation of our life and vitality is certainly limud hatorah, where there is no one to make the dejected happy, the Torah itself obligates those who study it to go and cheer them up. The Rosh Yeshiva of Ponevezh, Rav Shach zt"l, personified this. He was the father for individuals and therefore carried the burden of the klal." [38] - Rabbi Moshe Shmuel Shapiro

SDR said...

A Yeshiva of Far Rockaway graduate heard the maspidim relate that when the rosh yeshiva had found out that he had yenem machalah, he was actually slightly happy. Why? The young man explained, “The maspidim said that he had wanted so much l’achar mei’ah v’esrim shanah to speak in learning with Rav Shach, zt’l, and Rav Moshe Feinstein, zt’l. But he was concerned that since they were tremendous tzadikim and had suffered greatly, he would not be put within their sphere in Shamayim. He felt he needed yesurim to reach their madreigah. This illness would afford him those yesurim. This is notwithstanding that he had lost two of his elder sons during his own lifetime.”

? said...

Why is there no title given to the niftar, not even a R. or a Reb?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

ok, I give up. He'll get a "R'"

AK said...

"how many Hungarian bochurim already learned in da Mir that we can say that RY "liked" them?"

Tzig - we all know the answer that there not that many. Why should there have been? Contrary to the revisionist history we were taught in Litvishe Yeshivos, there were more yeshivas and bochurim learning in yeshiva in (Greater) Hungary than in (Greater) Lita.

Tzig, do you agree with me on that?

And just to stick my two cents into the ridiculous "Reb" comment. I guess the comment was based on the new "Yated" standard. "Reb" is used for any breathing person. (C"V to call someone "Mr."!), with "Rav" being used for all the Roshei Yeshiva and the like. So the fact that you said "Reb Lazer" instead of "Rav Lazer" got Mr. Anon off.

Of course, those of us who actually DID learn in Yeshiva know that all the Roshei Yeshiva and Gedolim were referred to as "Reb", Reb Lazer Shach ZT"L included.

schneur said...

Changing the subject . can someone out there e nlighten me how Reb Shlomo Lorencz ZT"L and yablach Reb Men. Porush shlit"a made their money ? Were they in the diamond trade or were they partners in The Olympia & York Construction business ?

AK said...

In looking at the pictures, I have one question. When (and why) did he "downgrade" from a Hamburg to a down hat.

(Tzig - I know when you switched to a down hat it was an "upgrade", but in R' Lorencz's world it would be a "downgrade"!)

Any info?

Moshe Peltz said...

SDR cut-and-pasted a whole lot of hocus from wikipedia, and that vicious good-for-nothing, Reb Moshe Shmuel Shapiro. I'll tell you how anyone with a moderate I.Q might his published works.
The Avi-Ezri is a rather mediocre work, which wasn't even fully compiled (by his own admission)by Reb Lazer. As anyone who's spent any rel time in serious yeshivas knows, the sefer is largely ignored. Reb Lazer did, however, spew much hate and vitriol against Jews of all stripes, including wildly insane 'piskei-halacha', throwing the 'kfira' smear with abandon. Anybody who didn't agree with him was treif, even though he (as he admits in his own hakdomo-paraphrased) "has no mastery of halacha l'maase". He was not a posek, merely another 2-bit RY who boosted himself by creating huge machlokes.
Anyone who's read through the various hakdomos to different printings of the Avi-Ezri would also have to conclude, that the man was either a schizophrenic, or that the hakdomos (like some of the pnim) were written by different people.
So don't come on here parroting some desperate tripe about Reb Lazer in your attempt to distort history. If you insist- we can start posting quotes from Reb Lazers published writings, showing just how hopelessly out-of-touch the man was. Let the dead rest, he surely regrets what he's left behind - the brainwashed trolls posting in his 'defense' being a prime example.

Anonymous said...

Menachem Parush was a major collector for the "Moisdois" (Agudah etc.). He collected in the USA and Europe etc. He got rich from the "shivrei luchos".


Anonymous said...

"Why is there no title given to the niftar, not even a R. or a Reb?"

Because first and foremost he was an MK. Rabbanus came a distant second.

How can you spot a dishonest politician? He breathes!

Anonymous said...

the Rebbe never called Satmar Rov Shpiegel Brecher and no other derogatory name,Please don't brush the Rebbe with the satmar Chazerie.

Anonymous said...

Porush has alot of dough from summer camp, hotels, but I never heard that Lorencz Iz A Gevir
my gut feeling tells me that half of the stuff writes in his Autobiography is fiction, starting from his argument with his Rebbe the old Pupa Rov to the Brisker rov and Chazon Ish

SDR said...

Moshe Peltz:

Sorry but your baseless claims are botul u'mevutal. As for my "hocus" bring me sources to disprove my quotes. True they were taken from Wikipedia, but I've seen them elsewhere in many places and they are cited there as well.

As anyone who's spent any rel time in serious yeshivas knows, the sefer is largely ignored. Yeah in Chabad I'm sure it is as is most Torah that isn't Tanya or a Sicho form MH"M.

As for "vicious good-for-nothing, Reb Moshe Shmuel Shapiro" that just shows your colors. You better hurry and get your yellow flag ready for Mincha.

Anonymous said...

Moshe Peltz

Is R' Moshe Shmuel's Teyreh also mediocre? It is the hardest post 60's sefer written- very tedious.

Did you own open it up? Do you understand one whole page?

You chabdtzke You

schneur said...

Lorencz apparently resided in one of the nicest homes in BB.So I heard. But I can not say for sure that he had money.
Certainly everything Lorencz wrote is given to exageration.The student of history would certainly not rely on him and his memoirs.
The death of a Jew is sad especially a well known askan. But for the record what were his accomplishments ?
When the time came even his so called mentor the Baal Avi Ezri made certain he played no leadership role in the new Degel and sort of forced him out of public life. Anyone offer some reasons ?
The Lev Simcha wished to give the Aguda a dose of democrocy with rotation and the party strong men Lorencz and Yiblach Rabbi Porush would not take the hint.
Pourush finagled his way into the new Chassiidc party the new Aguda and his son took over as the Jerusalem boss from him.
Lorencz was zapped by his handelers.
I guess Ger has a long memory and their relations with the Porush family are mixed witness the last mayorality election in Jslm where the Gerer supported the secualr candidate over Meir Porush.

Anonymous said...

Lorentz lived in Yerusholayim in his later years.I don't know if he was rich but being a member of the Knesset pays a decent wage and decent pension especially after so many years
Btw,Schneour you probably shouldn't mention "democracy" and Ger in the same sentence.They are by far the most reviled chasidic group much, much more than Lubavitch .The Chareidi world sees them as people who have grabbed the number one spot in the Agudah lineup in the Knesset who care only for their own.
Besides for making even the Taliban look "modern" when it comes to their personal lives

breaking news said...

first time ever!

mosheshmeel said...

Look, SDR, Peltz, Anonymous, etc:
The fact is, as anybody "fin alle kreizen" knows, that Rav Shach only had a limited chashives be'chayuv, and today is not really remembered too well. Yes, he was a groisse rosh yeshive, but 'gudol hador' never. His war against the chabaske didn't make him look very smart either but theres no point to dig it up again now.

Anonymous said...

I heard a rumor that in Gur some chasidim erupted into a dance upon hearing the news that Mr Lorencz died.
I am not familiar with the details but I assume he annoyed the Gurers by standing hand in hand with his brother in crime Menachem Porush by crowning the son Mayer as the wannabe mayor of Yerushliem

Anonymous said...

Moshe Peltz
the official line on Reb Moshe Shmiel torah that it so deep that nobody gets it,kind of the "Emperor has no clothes"

Anonymous said...

We in the USA had a Jew also an Ungarischer chasidisher but no backstabber)that can maybe called the Avi Hayeshivois by the name MR Mendlovitz with a badge of honor and was insulted when you called him Rabbi

SDR said...

The fact is mosheshmeel:

The quotes from various gedolim in my post above are more than enough to substantiate Rav Schach's stature. You feeble minded opinion speaking fin all kreizen is unsubstantiated and worthless.

"His war against the chabaske didn't make him look very smart either" OH, I beg to differ. The way Chabad is today makes R'Schach look like a NAVI!

Anonymous said...

Anon5 Wrote:He fought head on with the Rebbe
about many issues such as...

מיהו יהודי
שלמות הארץ
חזות דתית
He did not fight, he did not give these issues his priority the same way that lubavitch does not give them ANY priority today

Anonymous said...

Anon 6:10 -- I know you meant well, but to say a tzaddik's name on this blog is to open him up to lashon hara and/or hotza'as shem ra from somebody no matter who he is.

In fact I'd like to propose an experiment: The tzig posts the names of two tzaddikim in every generation fin heint back to moshe and see how far we have to go to find someone nobody has taynes on.

Anonymous said...







Anonymous said...

I don't understand how an upstanding Lubavitcher would have his picture up, l'tov u'lemutov/ Anyone living through those times shudders at the terrible neaek he did to klal Yisroel. That grisly murder in EY is compliments to him and his cohorts who fought Mihu Yehudi tooth and nail. See the Kfar Chabad Magazine articles of the mems for all the gory details.
A shanda!

Anonymous said...


reb shlomo lorenz told me last year by a family simcha that before the war the olam hatorah was located in Hungary which meant (Hungary Rumania Czecslovkia) stating that in every Hungarian town the rov had a yeshiva of between 50-100 bocurim then he mentioned the big yeshivas Nitra Pupa- Satmar –Toshnad presburg where each of theses yeshivas had between 300 to 400 bochurim then he said how many yeshivas in lita had these amounts of bochrim the only one was mir more so he added that in pre war Hungary a frum family sent all their boys to yeshiva in lita a family sent one or two boys to a yeshiva so I asked him did the litvisher gedoleiy yisroeld acknowledge this fact so he told yes the chazon ish and brisker rov knew this fact very well

AK said...

Anon 7:54 - Thank you for the reply. I am happy someone did acknowledge this. Then may I ask, why are hungarians so villified in the Litvishe Yeshiva World. (I am asking this as a Hungarian who learnt in the most well known litvishe yeshivos)?

When I would try to say to others in my yeshiva days about the yeshivas in Hungary, (and especially this fact that you mentioned that everyone was sent to learn in yeshiva, as opposed to yechidim in Lita) I got laughed at? Why?

Tzig - Any insight? I am confident you have plenty to add to the matter.

Anonymous said...

Wasn't their in the lita. Telz? Salabodka? Radin(trop and wasserman)?etc..

You are correct on the Yeshivas in Hungary and you forgot Galanta(Buxbaum) Munkatch,Chust(Duschinsky)Saklahad(Rosner)they were all big yeshivohs,

Anonymous said...

Anon 12;52
I don't know all this hypothetical stuff, that the brisker rov wanted to take so on so on,Did you ever see RS"Z quote him in his sefer on Nedorim, but his torah is not repeated in the Yeshivisher world by Shiurim, its a lie, period, he took Brisk to a far stretch

CR said...

"In fact I'd like to propose an experiment: The tzig posts the names of two tzaddikim in every generation fin heint back to moshe and see how far we have to go to find someone nobody has taynes on."

Heh, you have to go back farther than even Noach (yesh dorshim lishvach, yesh dorshim lignai...)

schneur said...

Certainly HUngary had Torah schlarship.I will not argue.
But besides MIr in greater Lithuania there were yeshivas with hundreds of bachurim in places like Kletzk, Telz, Ponoviesz, Bialistock, , Grodna, Radin, Slutzk, Baranowitz (3 different schools here) Kaminetz, Volozhin (yes the yeshiva reopened after it was closed) Slobodka, Kobrin,Brisk (besides the kibbutz of Rav Velvele, Lubavitch (yes its also in greater Jewish Lita), the netweork of Navorhodok yeshivas , Kelm, the kibbutz in Eyshishok,Vilna (Ramalies, and Chabad), Lomzha, etc.
The gedolie Yisroel also lived in greater Lita : Re Chaim, the Chofetz Chaim , Chazon Ish, Reb Chaim Ozer, Rashab, RaNat, Reb Shimen, Reb Israel Salanter and his talmidim. the Rogochover, Rav Reines,etc etc etc.
There ws also a Tifferes bachurim movment wher ehundreds if not thousands of young baalei melocha were kova Itim daily.
Clearly the center of Tore scholarship , certainly in qualirty was Lithuania.
By the way ever hear of a Litvishe yungerman or bachur from Slobodka , Radin or Telz go to Nitra, Galanta, Tashnad etc to be mashlim in learning ???
On the other hand bachurim from Germany, Poland , USA, Galicia and gteater HUngary came eto Lita to be mashlim .

Schneur said...

The Hungarian survivors have created a mythical picture of Torah life after WW 1 in greater Hungary. Talk to any honest and objective survivor about the matzav in "frum "cities like Munkatz, Bergszaz, Siget etc, you will find Zionism super strong among the youth etc. The gymnasiums were competing with the yeshivas for the youth and we are not takling about Neolog , but Orthodox. Exactly how many "ORTODOX" bachurim were in the yeshivas hailing from Pest or Oradea(Grossvardein) or Temishvar??
The Satmarer rebbe was so disgusted with the situation in Oberland that he called for a new "teilling".In a recent issue of the weekly Nayes Bericht there was a fascinating article about the problem of a great many Marmorasher bachurim who left to Pest and behaved in shall we say a very negative manner. it was so serious to draw the Satmarer Rebbe to Budapest to discuss this issue with the Desher rebbe and rav Baruch Rabinowitch of Munkatch and the local Orthodox communal leaders who were very woried abou this new phenomenom. A proposal to direct them to exisiting yeshivas was opposed by some of the rabbonim who were scared that they would infect the bachurim already in the yeshivas.
A proposal : I will not exagerate the Matzav in Lita, if you do not exagerate the matzav in greater Hungary.

AK said...

Schneur - There were problems all over between the wars. No one ever said that Hungary was immune to these problems. My grandmother was from Munkatch and told me all about those times (she still considers herself an avowed Socialist!)

However, the problems were greater and deeper in Poland and Lita than in Hungary. There was difinately a greater percentage of the youth that stayed frum and went to yeshivas in Hungary than in Poland/Lita.

But, whoever tries to point a rosy picture of anywhere between the wars is fooling themselves.

In regards to your earlier (11;50) post, there were hungarian bochurim who went to learn in Lita? The land where women didn't even cover their hair? You should talk to a hungarian sometime and hear the disdain they had for Lita. I have never heard of even one hungarian bochur going to learn in Lita. Help me if I am missing someone obvious.

schneur said...

The son of Rav Teichtal( a Munkatcher Chasid) traveled to Lithuania to study in Slobodka.
Rabb Y.M. Schlesinger a yekke went from Frankfurt to Berlin to Nitra and from there to Lita.
The figures from Hungary are not very accurate , because by definition all non frum people were Neolog , where as in Lithuania and Poland even Bundist and many Communists went to shul, ate kosher meat and were buried in the same cemetaries as chassidm.
Rabbi Meyer Berlin in his memoirs describes walking along a main shopping aveneue in Pest with the chief rabbi Koppel Riech. Rav Reich was boasting that all Pest Jews are shomrei shabbes, yet R. Berlin kept passing stores with Jewish names pen for business, he mentioned this to the rav , R. Reich replied oh those are Neologs they are not Jews !!

priority said...

Anon5 Wrote:He fought head on with the Rebbe
about many issues such as...

מיהו יהודי
שלמות הארץ
חזות דתית
He did not fight, he did not give these issues his priority the same way that lubavitch does not give them ANY priority today

Not Brisk said...

R' Moshe Shmuel' Torah is gorvehete Torah. It is very difficult- even the biurim. You have to know the inyanim cold before you open up and get confused with all the favorpehenhe rishonim he finds (not just the Riy Migash) and the different old texts that he was into.

In the tedious/hard on the brain aspect, it is similar to the Chazon Ish; obviously not the mehalech which is Brisk with mutzeray/hurevanya/taking it to the end/ working out the cheshbones, not just focusing on the maskones like the Brisker seforim

The amount of pages and simanim he dedicated to the Rov's short shtickle on the beginning of Bava Kamma is a wonderous site.

His songs weren't bad...

How those divrey bizoyen got bast the censor is beyond me...

Anonymous said...

Simple question yes or no...

Did the Rebbe not strongly imply bad things which he knew and fully understand would create sinas chinam by Lubavichers to other frummer yidden when he made veiled references to the Satmar Rebbe and Rav Shach (you wouldn't like it if your Nasi Doreinu was called Reb Mendy).

Of course he didn't curse out gedolim openly....but show me where any gadol spoke about the Rebbe by name.

SDR said...

Moshe Shmuel Shapiro Zt"l and talmidim singing R' Baruch Ber's Sim Sholom.

Michoel said...

Anon of 9:57,
I really think you are barking up the wrong tree. It is a gevaldig maaleh of the Litvish that they are understated and refer to their g'dolim with an affectionate "Reb". And that is how Tzig was using it as well. Hey, there is lot's of better stuff on this blog to get infuriated about!

Anonymous said...

the fact is their are not too many Hungarians that left to the Lita to Yeshivahs, I knew another person in Willi R'Chaim Berger, that left to Telz from Hungary he had a shul on Rodney st, wrote some seforim on Shas but he kept his fully chasidic tradition.

Anonymous said...

the Rebbe never said anything negative on the Satmar Rov simple as that.He definitely had different shitohs as mivtza tefilin that he spoke by fabrengen to refute the questions that came up in his sefer al Hageula, even the brisker rov disagreed on his shita of Sitra Achra Miracles, as brought down in Lorencz book.
On MARAN he did talk but with no name, he considered him a irresponsible manhig, with one view if I say Morning he will say Night etc..

Not Gullible said...

"I still don't understand the not sleeping in a suka shita,"

Tell you what, you explain to me how a women that uses a Mikvah Bor Al Gabbai Bor Remains a...., and her husband is a .....and their children are....

you explain that statement to me and then I'll explain the 'not sleeping in a Suka shita'

CR said...

"I still don't understand the not sleeping in a suka shita,"

This was a Minhag Yisroel from the times of the A"R and from earlier. The GR"A never complained about it despite knowing about it for certain. None of the Volozhiner Roshei Yeshiva ever complained about it. And they all interacted regularly with the Tzemach Tzedek and MaHaRaSh. R' Chaim Ozer never complained about it and interacted regularly with the RaShaB. It never became an issue until one Rav defied two centuries of acceptance and made it one about 30 years ago. For these reasons the Rebbe asserted that the sole motivation for doing so was to be Mecharker Riv. Furthermore, the Rebbe said that explanations were futile in such an environment because the "defenders of the faith" were really not seeking any.

Mike Reicher said...

What are you guys trying to prove?
The facts are out there for all to see, plain as day. What the Lubavitcher Rebbe achieved is a Jewish spiritual renaissance which we continue to enjoy today. Fifty years of service to Jews and Judaism everywhere is hard to argue with. That he made himself available to ALL types of Jews makes him unique. So does the fact that what he built continues to serve millions of Jews today, be it a backpacker in India, businessmen in China, or a Rabbi in Europe. The success of Chabad worldwide, as well as the existence and scale of todays 'Bal Teshuva' movement, bear ample witness to the fact that the LR's vision was both farsighted and correct.
To compare Rav Schach to the LR in terms of Jewish leadership is simply ludicrous, and does him a grave disservice. While RS was a renowned Rosh-Yeshiva, and the final word in Litvish yeshva circles for many years, he was not a world leader. Most frum Jews did not accept his authority, and he was not a halachic authority. In fact, its fair to say that 95% of the Jews outside of Israel never even knew of his existence. Why should they - nothing he did or said could even remotely affect them?! Within the frum community, his constant attacks on Chabad, Religious Zionists, and the secular, were seen as counter-productive, if not downright petty and vicious. Sadly, this has become his legacy.
So to all you fixated automatons, give it a rest- please.
Yes, there remain some questions about Chabad, why they don't sleep in the sukkah, SOME disagree with their method of constructing mikvaos, etc. And there are many, some would say much more serious, questions about those who claim to follow RS. Why have they invented a new way, of sitting in kollel all day while the wife slaves 3 jobs- a setup never seen before in Torah history, why they lack even basic ahavas-yisroel, etc.
So every group has 'issues' that can be picked at 'ad infinitum'. But to compare a world leader of Jews with a Rosh Yeshiva in Benei-beraq is simply absurd.

Anonymous said...

To "Not Gullible said...":

Are you sure R' Shach actually said that?

Check this out:

(Defenders of the Faith: Inside Ultra-Orthodox Jewry. Poster on pg. 304. By Samuel C. Heilman)

"I have heard claims made in my name that at a gathering connected with the upcoming elections, I said the people of Chabad are not Jews. I publicly announce that in malice do they distort my words! I spoke in Hebrew, and this is what I said: what they [Chabad] do is not the "Jewish" way. They distorted my words on purpose to damage and libel me for they think that from this they will derive some benefit and gather more votes in these elections. And when they claimed that I called them the children of an impure woman, I testify before heaven and earth that I never said words such as these but only criticized their effort to build a ritual bath that was not in line with the standards of the Chazon Ish, may the memory of this righteous man be a blessing... I do not forgive anyone who fabricates words on his own and then says that I said them. And with this I request that each and every one will pass these words to his fellow"

Anonymous said...

For those that aren't aware, CR's comments are a direct repeat of what the Lubavitcher Rebbe said to R' Tzvi Kahane (10 Sivan, 5750):

Snag said...

Ironic that all these years after the Mihu Yehudi fiasco, the greater Jewish world has come to the conclusion that it is in fact the Lubavitchers that need to be isolated from the greater tzibbur because of their minnus.

CR said...

"Check this out:

(Defenders of the Faith: Inside Ultra-Orthodox Jewry. Poster on pg. 304. By Samuel C. Heilman)"

That is a third-hand account of a denial coupled with some firey bluster attempting to bully the dissenters into silence. It is not very convincing without reference to the original remarks.

Personally, I think it unsurprising (though still appalling) that REMMS would use language like "they are not Jews". He did so in a very public forum in 5750 in which he said of the Kibbutzniks "What makes them Jewish?". And that Degel HaTorah birdcage rag, the Trusty Rusty Nail (a.k.a. Yated Ne'eman), reported the relevant paragraph in full. Frankly, the assertions about the earlier remarks are rendered quite believable by this gleeful admission on the part of the Degel HaTorah factota (the Niftar at this article's lede among them).

I think it was Joe Stalin who once said not to believe a rumor until it is officially denied. ;-)

Michoel said...

"Personally, I think it unsurprising (though still appalling) that REMMS would use language like "they are not Jews"."

Um, he didn't. You are grossly misrepresenting him.

CR said...

"Um, he didn't. You are grossly misrepresenting him."

Tipesh! You're gonna make me prove that he most certainly did.

"Then came the blow: `Gentlemen, would you like to hear something, without politicians? There is a "New Torah" in the ranks of the Left, a "New Torah." Nobody talks about Shabbat; no one fasts on Yom Kippur. If so, what makes them Jewish? The Left has severed the Jewish nation from its past.'

"Now everything was clear. The tension in the auditorium broke. Without talking politics, G-d forbid, HaRav Shach stated explicitly that the Left was taboo, off-limits. Without even hinting at politics, HaRav Shach brought into question the Jewishness of the Left. He came to the conclusion that the Left has a new Torah without Shabbat, without Kippur, and that it has cut itself off from its Jewish past."

This is not my interpretation but comes from the very "Degel haTorah" stooges I mention above. Today, decades later, the useful idiots try to cover up this unsavory past with denial, lies and even outright threats (my own Rabbonim have had direct experience with the latter point). However, the historical facts are undeniable; your "Rosh Yeshiva" said these vile, hateful things about fellow Jews and the rabble of cultists drank it down like cheap Kool-Aid.

We are all fortunate that today's Yeshivishe Gedolim (e.g. Rav Eliyashiv, Rav Kanievsky, Rav Shteinman) have abandoned this execrable sentiment and endeavored to heal the rifts left in this man's wake.

Michoel HaTipish said...

You wrote, with quotation marks, that Rav Shach said that "they are not Jews". He didn't say that. What he actually said, in Yiddish was along the lines of for what are they Jews. Meaning by what claim are they authentically Jewish. I think your taaneh is actually on the Rambam who says that a m'challel Shabbos like an Akum l'chal davar.

Michoel said...

rabble of cultists drank it down like cheap Kool-Aid.

Gut g'zucht... but about the wrong party...

CR said...

"You wrote, with quotation marks, that Rav Shach said .... He didn't say that. What he actually said, in Yiddish was...."

Obviously, reading comprehension is not taught in your Kitah Aleph class. I brought you an article that quotes his exact words spoken in front of thousands of people. Further, the article makes it explicit that his intent was to "br[ing] into question the Jewishness of...". Nuff said. You can ignore it all you want but it does not go away.

"Rambam who says that a m'challel Shabbos..."

So you pasken from the RaMBaM instead of the Acharonim?

"Gut [gezogt]... but about the wrong party..."

I'll worry about my cultist friends and you worry about yours. Frankly, the way the Markowitz and Kahanemann factions go at each in Panevėžys makes the goings-on at 770 look like a kindergarten rumble.

Michoel said...

This conversation is loosing its utility. You showed me an article which clearly demonstrates that he did not say what you quoted him as saying and now you are whining about MY reading comprehension. Even the Yated spin doesn't not say what you said Rav Shach himself said.

Which acharonim argue on the Rambam? L'chumra, they are tinokos sh'nishbu, to be m'chaiv us. But I'm quite sure you wouldn't drink from their wine.

CR said...

"This conversation is loosing its utility."

Agreed. I can only present the same material so many times before your obtuseness and refusal to look make further attempts futile. "None so blind as those who will not see" as the Umos haOlam say.

"But I'm quite sure you wouldn't drink from their wine."

So, if they turned on the lights in your home on Shabbos you would not leave, right? If they are "Akum l'ch[o]l davar" then you can take advantage of their Melachos; Halacha LeMa'aseh to the contrary notwithstanding.

As I said before; Tipesh!

Anonymous said...

You can see the speech here:

(17 minutes into video)

or here:

(At 25:40 into the video)