Monday, October 26, 2009
... and R' Yisrolik too
No, my friends, we didn't forget Reb Yisrolik Shemtov, the pride and joy of Crown Heights. Yisroel has been making top quality kapotes for some years now, at the Crossroads of the world, Kingston Avenue and Empire Boulevard in beautiful Brooklyn, New York. And a visit to his shop is not just a SHOPPING experience, it's a good word, a helping hand, and maybe even a solution to one of life's difficulties. Even his ads in the Tzachlist, and his business card (!) list his other "professions." Which is why to box him in as just another option where to buy your long black coat is unfair to all of us. Yisroel ben Reb Bentzion is deserving of his own post, a thread that discusses his accomplishments over the years, despite the fact that I have yet to buy a kapote there. It's not for nothing that he's beloved by all, unless they happen to be power-hungry fools who want him and others like him out of the way.
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Hey, I did mention him. Of course selling surtuks is his smallest accomplishment. The man is a real oheiv isroel shein bedugmosei. I hope he has parnosoh, but I do not think he can compete with the Chinese product...
Yeah, this man is great. I had few accounts with him and even bought surtuk once from him.
What is this plug about?
this is a great story about him
Isroel is an ish Hatzadik and thats all Ill say here
its simple a plug for a ish hachesed, which part of it don't you understand?
It would probably be a decent thing to ask him if he minds being on page one of your blog
just one note about R' Yisroel; Make sure to tell him you wedding date is 3 weeks before it really is in order for your sertuk to be ready on time! ;)
that's true with Hartstein as well. Nothing wrong with that.
how about the one with the guy who had a special invitation printed with an earlier date for R' Yisroel, and instead of printing one with the earlier date and the rest with the later date by mistake the printer printed one with the correct date and the rest with the earlier one.
I'm curious to know if your blog is open to a dialogue about Chabad.Current Chabad with some of it's views that are misunderstood or not mainstream not an ancient Chasidim/Misnagdim debate
sure, Nosson. what would you like to discuss?
Look, the questions I ask are not going to be popular and can touch buttons that cause some people to feel uncomfortable.
However,I really believe that these questions have to be addressed and the only way to address them is to ask,respectfully, of course and have some kind of dialogue.
I also think that you may need to moderate the tone of the discussion so as not to flare up a whole war and if possible an actual post allowing people to pose questions and discuss.
Lastly a small preface:Without getting into who is right or wrong I think we can agree that Lubavitch has introduced many new and different themes into the Jewish marketplace of ideas the Chasidic and Yeshivas have basically carried on their practices with little basic change
Hopefully we''ll be able to discuss this at a later time.I have to go out now.
Do you think you would allow a post that is dedicated to this subject?
you're going to write something up? by all means!
put it together and we'll get responses to all your questions.
Since I have to run I''l ask a more simplistic question with less theological backround.
Why do they daven so late in Chabad?
I understand that it's around 9:30 weekdays and 10 shabbos?(in yeshivas of course,if somebody has a job that probably dictates what time they can daven)
So, I saw that the Rebbe says it's a halocho in Shulchan Oruch that you have to daven "metoch hisbonenus and koved rosh" (something like that)and the true preparation is to learn sifrei Emunah, which takes time.
Question:Why not get up an hour earlier, (like many chasidic yeshivas)and do the same hachono without having problems with zman tefillo,krias shma bizmano(I'm sure they say it before davening, but again it's with the berochos and tefillin)and eating before davening (the "heter is because haroev vehatsome bichlal choleh", so if you daven earlier you would not be hungry)
Sorry I did not notice you response about me writing a post.So,no I don't have the capabilities and writing skills to write a post, I was thinking of you allowing a post/thread to questions or to guest posters who would respecfully like issues addressed
Nosson, I look forward to your post.
To paraphrase:Without getting into who is right or wrong I think we can agree the Chasidic and Yeshivas have adopted as their own many new and different themes that Lubavitch originally introduced into the Jewish marketplace of ideas, and have turned these ideas into major money-making sources for their various enterprises.
Neabch the art of davening is being lost.
Even in non-Lubavitch minyanim, (which I ocasionally frequent)you have stragglers on a shabbos morning strolling in bekoma zekufa 1/2 hour after davening starts, skipping over pesukei dezimro because such is dictated by shulchan oruch, and then perusing the daf in the heylige Artscroll during chazoras hashas.
Regarding the "lost art of davening" in our communities...
I heard an interesting vort some time ago about how so much of our "vatikin"-emulation today is actually reminiscent of Midian and B'al P'or. Basically, the early priests and practicioners of that A"Z were great mystics and philosophers. When they "davened" they would get into such a state of "deveikus" that they would lose physical control of themselves and would ...
As the generations went down people lost the ability to attain such "deveikus". Still, they retained the physical manifestations and that became the central "avodah" by itself. And this explains the intersting Ma'aseh at the end of Parashas Balak.
So too by us, and our attempts to emulate the external trappings of prior generations' greats, it has become easy to forget about the Tochen.
Whenever I see a glossy magazine from "Kupas Ha'ir" (and I am not refering to the community fund from my own city), I notice that they are trying to tap in to the same motivation that led to sacrifices to the stars and planets.
This also begs the question; by such superficial treatment are we, Kevayachol, doing the same to G-d as the Midyanim did to their materials?
nobody in Chabad ever gave legitimacy for missing Soif zman Krias Shema
Two guys at the back of the shul after kuming arein in de regen...
past sof zman kriyas shema for one who said
"Oy my kapote is wet"
The andere sayd back
" just get it pressed...no need for dri kleaners"
I think I did not explain myself well enough.
The problems with davening late:Not that anybody in Lubavitch legitimizes missing sof zman krias shma, rather we get into the problem of saying shma without tefillin, since one needs to say shma before davening(this may not be a problem, because later shma is said with tefillin?)
Birkos krias shma are not said on the shma we are mechuyav to say.
The need to eat before davening since people will be hungry by 10/11 in the morning.
Bichlal, there is clearly an inyan to be makdim tefilla medin "zerizim makdimim lemitzvos"some say iirc that any tefilla after vosikin is "bedi'ved" and actually what happened to the inyan of vosikin in Lubavitch?.
All this could be easily avoided if the day started an hour (or two)earlier.
Ein odom meisim atzmoi rosho. Ergo, any eidus that Lubatchers may bring about davening late is hereby disregarded.
With the earlier davening,the pre davening eating will not be solved, if you are up earlier your stomach needs nourishment earlier.
The Rebbe was asked many times by outsiders (as Rav Yalles)on the chabad time of 10:00am shachris, his standard answer was Hoihil Denafke Mipimai Dearav and he didn't go into details,
In chassidus and kabala there were many schools of thought how to spent the night, Zidichoiv had his way, the Chernobler Rebeiem have their own way in the Hadrochas to wake up at 12 Am and go on for the night, I heard that the old Skwerer took a nap in the early morning hours till 9;00, and stated Shachris at 10;00.
Nosson, you can just safely assume that if a certain hanhogo was instituted by the Chabad Rebbeim, it is surely אויסגעהאלטען מכל צד ופינה .
Now, if you agree with this hanochoh, then what is the real reason behind this inquiry? And you don't agree, what possible point is there in discussing this with you? Do you really think that the Chabad Rebbeim need anyone's "defense"?
(Btw, the reason for "late" davenen is soooo painfully obvious...)
"All this could be easily avoided if the day started an hour (or two)earlier."
So, all the Rav has to do is wave his holy hand and PRESTO! the hours of the day shift to the right? ;-)
In all fairness, by asking this question in this type of forum (and you are far from being the first to do so) you are going to be viewed in an oifen fun "Vayomer Kayin el Hevel achiv..."; see Rashi. This can then be turned around to ask why the Yeshivishe Oilem pays little-to-no heed to Chazaras HaShatz. As stated earlier, by looking in seforim they are clearly violating the halacha of paying attention to every word "VeGodol Avonam Melin'soa" (the S"A haRav says you are supposed to yell at someone who does to to stop).
There was a letter published in the name of Rav Heller some years ago in which he takes to task those people who daven late without the requisite prior avodah of the Alter Chassidim. Basically, he says that there is no excuse for late davening after "sleeping in" and and then hanging out in the Chatzeir for hours discussing Real Estate, Stocks or the Yankees with your friends (my own editorial, FWIW). And you and I both know that far too many late daveners are in this latter category. Avodas Pe'or Kedel'il.
Berl makes a very valid and extremely important point. In fact hecould extend it by referring to so many earlier - and universally recognized tzadikim and Torah giants - like R. Levi Yitzchak of Berdichev, R. Michel of Zlotchov etc. etc. who not only davened late but were already in their times asked about this "hayitachen..." In spite of all the questions asked (not only re shacharit but also re Mincha). In fact there are a number of tshuvos by chassidic poskim dealing with it and offering justifications. Thus your question is simply opening an old issue going back to the early days of all chassidus, not just chabad, and is no more than rehashing ooooooooooold oooooooold stuff that has been chewed over and over and over again, and there is really no point in repeating it. As Berel rightly says, either you accept the hanocho that it was established, justified or excused by reputable and reliable gedolei Yisroel [in contemporary terminology 'valid da'as Torah'] and therefore not subject to further debate, or you reject that hanochoh - which would then first lead to the question of where and with whom lies da'as Torah and piskei halochoh.
you are so right, their are certain characters noting will be Oisgihalten, only if you will have the brisker rov etc.. hold like that too, even tough the Briskers didn't respect the Shulchan Oruch what so ever, so by chasidim you have the Eretz Tzvi to answer their minhogim that they are consistent with a certain Rishon ... he was as a Goan and Yiras Shomaim as the Brisker and the Chazon Ish
if I remember well Rabbi Heller also found a Rishon that holds that you can daven after Chatzos, please bring the entire letter.
I think Reb Ovadia has very sharp teshuvos against the Abridged Chazoras Hashatz,But I was shocked this Chol Hamoid when I stopped in BMG, their were Minyonim Mincha and they did the short version, eventough the Shul was literally empty which is a pela for itself, my father and grandfather were sitting the whole Chal hamoid on a bench in shul on A gemorah
"he was as a Goan and Yiras Shomaim as the Brisker and the Chazon Ish"
A person is not a "yiras shomayim"
btw, where did you see that Brisk "didn't respect the Shulchan Oruch what so ever"
Tell your mashpia to give you some of the basics of Orthodox Judaism
nosson rabim vetovim mimcho asked this question about davening late for example rabbi yales from philadelphia who went that far to ask the rebbe personely
do you know what the rebbe told him?
guess what the rebbe said there is a din in gemoroh about hodoss hameshulash that keivan denofik mipumeih derav kahanah ... so therebbe said we do what the rebbe der shver did and he davend at ten so we also daven at ten ... thats it no more explanaton
veanan mah naneih absreih
Nosson, let's get one thing out of the way immediately: Shema is said bizmanoh, in tefillin, before anything is eaten. Of course you will find Lubavs who don't do this, just as you will find plenty of people in other chugim who don't do this; but the official Lubavitcher derech is to put on tefillin and say krishme before the zman and before eating. For birchos krishme the zman is later.
are they davening with Minyan? do they wear shabbos Tsitzes? do they fast tanessim (excluding yom Kippur,9th Av)? etc....
Here is the letter from R. Heller. Also included are comments from the RaShaB
It was posted in this very interesting thread on the entire matter of late davening including Shacharis after Chatzos HaYom.
Than you for the first objective response to my query.
Honestly I was not aware that tefillin were put on for shma before sof zman.
I hope to be able to discuss this a bit later since I've been quite busy lately and now I have to vote for the lesser of the two evils,Bloomberg
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