Tuesday, September 6, 2005

Even in Death!



The Jewish world was saddened last week by the murder of 21 year-old Shmuel Mett of London, England. Shmuel was a תלמיד of the Mirrer Yeshivah in Yerushalayim, and despite the Yeshivah's size, was well-known amongst the students.

In this week's משפחה there was an interview with the legendary משגיח of the Yeshivah, Rabbi Ahron Chodosh. Ahron is the son of the Mashgiach of Chevron Reb Meir Chodosh, (and if you must know, the brother of Rebbetzin Ezrachi of עטרת ישרא-ל, a Chevron " offshoot".)

If any Yeshivah in the world would dispel the myth of Chassidishe Bochurim not learning or knowing "how to learn", it would be Mir-Yerushalayim. The same could be said for the murdered Bochur, a self-made גערער חסיד who was a Masmid in his own right. Yet this old time Misnaged could not forego the opportunity to do some regular, good old-fashioned Chosid-bashing.

The good Mashgiach was asked to sum up the קדוש in a few words and this was his response. הוא הי' עובד, זה הי' בדרך החסידות, אבל עובד, Translation: that even though he was a Chassidishe Kugel Fresser, or in this case, Herring-Fresser, he was surprisingly still aware of his obligations to his creator and tried to fulfill them. Even though Chassidim in general don't believe in Avodas Hashem in the way it should be done, Still this Chossid did his darndest to please his maker in the foolish way he'd been taught to do.

People wonder why Chabad still uses terminology like "Misnagdim" to describe Litvishe Yidden who seemingly have nothing "against" Chassidim as a whole, Chabad not withstanding. I'll be the first to admit that the term is overused when convenient, and misused, for instance when referring to Modern Orthodox Jews, but in this case it surely wouldn't be.

Well folks, here's your answer.

It's nice to see we have lots of work to do.

57 comments:

Anonymous said...

BD"H

Hirshel, you sound like you've got a chip on your shoulder bud.

May G-d avenge the deceased

Anonymous said...

Chip?!
how about a boulder?!

bpunbound said...

But warranted.

And lest you think this elitist view of the world is the monopoly of the farbrenta litvaks of the old yishuv, lo and behold, in the editorial pages of Yated two weeks ago, the organ of the english- speaking, enlightened part of the Yeshiva world,the august R' Lipshitz implores the Gush Katif "settlers" to come live in his settlement, i.e. join the fold of the "yeshiva world", led by "gedolim", implying, no rather directly stating, that Gush Katif was void of Torah, Mitzvohs, Mikvaos, Yeshivas, Rabbonim, Moholim, Sofrim etc.

The Klippah of the Lomdei Torah is alive and well in der Lita.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

"the august R' Lipshitz"

who dat?

bpunbound said...

The nom de fame (or infame) of the papers editorial writer.

Anonymous said...

ok, so "they" still hate us, but how does this help the education of our children?

Anonymous said...

hy and litvak, its apparent why you cant think straight...the boulder fell off ht's shoulder and fell on your heads. why is this not appaling to you...maybe because your roshei yeshiva/gedoilim talk like this all the time and you are acustomed to this?.....

Anonymous said...

N,
I see you're in good form today!
Let me ask you though, is it different on the other side of the fence? I think "we" Lubavitchers are probably worse in this area then they are.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

16th
I don't think a Lubavitcher Mashpia/Mashgiach "at a murdered boy's Levaya" would note his differences with a "Misnaged".

Anonymous said...

HT,
I don't know - maybe yes, maybe no.
The point is that this is reallllly not an area where we have any purity.

Anonymous said...

This kind of stuff is sickening in all it's forms - but when we do it it's worse, because we SHOULD be better than that.

Anonymous said...

sweet 16,
please don't introduce moral relativity here...evidence lubav breaches or don't say too much...

AMSHINOVER said...

in der heartz fun yader litvak iz a tzelem,nem a messer oon kick aryn
a bunch of
snags

Anonymous said...

WELCOME TO AHAVAS YISROEL CENTRAL.
IT IS CHODESH ELUL EVERYONE.

Anonymous said...

shul
bah!
Ahavas Yisroel is for wimps. besides, we don't believe in Eloool

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Amshi
interesting you should bring up that quote, albeit incorrectly. Who's said to have made it?

Anonymous said...

HT, the quote is from the kotzker and it is about a head, not the heart. and it has an ending too:
... un oib nisht - nu, veinike mit ain misnagid...

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I coulda sworn I heard it about the Minchas Elozor zt"l

Anonymous said...

getting back to the original post: What do you think compelled the good Mashgiach to make such comments? Could he not overlook the fact that the Bochur was a Chossid?

Anonymous said...

What I was trying to say is that basically this is what we all do.

I remember reading a Lubavitch publication where they had a write up about a Jewish musician and they said "...and he learns Tanya."

The point is that something that we view as valuable becomes our way of measuring others. This Mashgiach looks at his way as the best way - as we all do. He also looks at other paths a deficient - as many people do. So he was trying to say something positive - that's all.
Like when mashpiyim say "es iz a Poilisher vort - obur s'iz emes."

Or when I hear "He's a Satmarer, but he's a nice guy."

Understand?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

so why then the attack on Lubavitch for being "holier than thou?"

Anonymous said...

H!
They hate us and we hate them. That's why we're in galus, remember?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

oh, ok. That settles it then.

Anonymous said...

The theory of relativism of hate, is it?

Anonymous said...

What makes us "holier than thou" even though almost all other frumer Yidden are chauvanistically biased toward their own camp is that the other groups have a list of acceptable options. (Especially the Polisher who will send one son to Bobov, another to Tosh, another to Ger and one to Mir just for fun.) But we Lubavitchers feel there is only ONE correct a and everyone else is a kiruv case.

Anonymous said...

Wow, so TZIG makes up a quote and everyone takes him seriously???
Nice 'dancing on blood here'
Just fyi:R'Meir Chodosh was of Lubavitcher stock from the town of Paritch.He was R'Ahrons father.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

makes up?

do I need to bring you the photocopy of the quote?

Anonymous said...

ht,
please do..

Anonymous said...

Yes!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

oh well, guess what? I do not have it with me. I read it in the previous week's issue in the country and I did not bring it home with me. If anybody does have one I would very much appreciate you getting in touch with me.

The honest truth.

Anonymous said...

Yeah,yeah.
Listen you jump to conclusions and post.Words in a 'hesped' have to be heard as the context and the tone import what was truly meant to be brought out.
If what you are saying is true,THEN:THE HUNDREDS of chassidishe boys and yungerlait who would go to a yeshiva where the mashgiach so derides them are the ones who are CRAZY!!!Is there a lack of space in chassidisheh yeshivos for them, that they need to come to a yeshiva were they are disparaged!
Lubavitch attack, besmirch people they don't like,then they are angry when others attack them!!!
Believe me even if what you wrote was true it pales in comparison to the garbage that goes on every single day in 770(especially in tishrei)opening of The 'shuro' to allow the (deceased!)Rebbe in and out of davening.Defacing and destructing the cornerstone laid by the Rebbe(ok, only the marble plaque....)bnecause it said:'zatsal' .Many other meshugassen that may you wonder if 'hazoi neomi' is thisa the Worldwide center of Lubavitch???It seems more like the New Orleans Metrodome post Katarin

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Pipik'el
try to stay on topic here, please.

1) The words were NOT said at a Hesped, but rather to a reporter at the Levaya. The reporter did not see it as disparaging.

2) The Bochurim who go learn there don't do because they have Aron Chodosh as the babysitter there, they go for the atmosphere of learning, etc. (among other things, VeD"L)

3) we're discussing the fact the old time Litvishe yidden still have no respect, not admiration or belief in, just respect! for Chassidus.

Anonymous said...

1)You are reading much too much into the alleged comment.
2) The Hassidic comment cited by Amshinover is so disgusting. It basically advocates violence, Rachmono litzlon, against Litvaks (even if you claim it's 'just a joke'). How would you react if someone said 'nem a messer...' against your group ? Did the heiliger Rav Schach zt"l ever say something like that ???
3) P. Lipschutz is a shvacher Litvak actually. His paper carries loads of photos and profiles of Chassidishe leaders, among other things. He is part and parcel of the recent Chassidicization of some Litvishe. He also is promoting Chassidishe minhogim like upsherin and tefillin leigen for a soon-to-be bar mitzvah bochur by roshei yeshivos, making them like Chassidim and Chassidishe Rebbes.

Anonymous said...

'2) The Bochurim who go learn there don't do because they have Aron Chodosh as the babysitter there, they go for the atmosphere of learning, etc. (among other things, VeD"L)'
What kind of dark tings are you implying here????
Ahavas yisroel nusach Chabad.Feh

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

well, why would you imagine that I'm refering to "dark things"?

I just meant the lack of supervision, the easy lifestyle, if you so choose. Nothing more.

Anonymous said...

the fact that the יתד covers Rebbe's is not out of love. It's simply to stay in the loop and compete with the HaModia for "Torah Jewry".

Anonymous said...

that should be "Rebbes", no apostrophe. My apologies.

Anonymous said...

The fact that any Lubavitch publication gives the time of day to any non Lubavitch personality is out of 'love'???
.

Anonymous said...

Just curious, why is it that whatever Lubavitch criticize others for is something that they are extremely lax in themselves??
The Besh't said it already:Kol hanegoim odom roeh, chutz etc....
Stop being sore losers:The heimishe oilem did not accept your Rebbe as nosi hador, moshiach etc....They see Lubavitch as chasideesh lite, the modern orthodox version

Anonymous said...

I guess you'd be speaking from your pipik now, wouldn't you?

bpunbound said...

..'em, Did I hear someone lamenting the use of violent, inflammatory language?

Botei Midrashim are being torched in Aza today as a result of "someone" declaring that another two thousand years with Ramat Hagolan Judenrein was no problem by him.

Anonymous said...

AND WHY WERE MILLIONS OF JEWS and shuls torched during the holocaust??

bpunbound said...

Pip,

I was not trying to be G-d's acountant. I leave you the job.

But, on one level, the gates of appeasement and weakness were opened with that statement (along with others, by others) and the heathens rushed right in to exploit it.

G-d, of course, controls all events. That, however, does not give anyone license to speak or act in a foolish or unwise manner.

Anonymous said...

"bpunbound said...
..'em, Did I hear someone lamenting the use of violent, inflammatory language?

Botei Midrashim are being torched in Aza today as a result of "someone" declaring that another two thousand years with Ramat Hagolan Judenrein was no problem by him."

As much as you dislike Rav Schach zt"l, to blame all arab attacks on him is pretty foolish.

Additionally, whatever he said is not on the level of someone saying to 'take a messer' to another Yid. A movement that claims to be based on ahavas Yisroel speaks about 'taking a messer...' ????

Anonymous said...

You'll excuse me anon, but

1) Amshinover is just that, an AMSHINOVER.

2) he's quoting, albeit incorrectly, a well-known Chassidishe Vort that does not have its roots in Chabad.

Anonymous said...

I am amazed at the amount of negativity directed against Litvishe Yidden.
Lubavitch is itself a Lithuanian chassiduth. Before 1940 99% of all Chabad people were of Lithuanian-White Russian stock.And they routinely intermarried with other Lithuanian Jews (not Gerer or Kotzker chassidm , but baal habatische Yidden) The Alter rebbe was called Reb Zalman Litvak.
I think all Reb Chodosh was saying is : look he was not like us, he was a Chassid yet he was a genuine Oved.
I certainly can see a Lubavitcher saying about a Breslver chassid Yes Ploni was not Chabad he was a Breslover yet he was still an Oved even though he was different than us.
In either case no one is claiming superiority rather expressing some social and cultural realities.
By the way the Gerer rebbes in Israel (especially the Bais Israel) were always mekarev the Chevroner bachurim and some became Gerer. (like the late gaon rav Shiloh Refael) I have never heard that it bothered the roshe yeshiva.
One of the Roshim Rav Aron Cohen ZT"Lw as a regular at the tisch of Shomre Emunim.

bpunbound said...

Anonymous said...
"As much as you dislike Rav Schach zt"l, to blame all arab attacks on him is pretty foolish."

Anonymous,

Read again. I implied that the very possibility that an elected government (who wished to remain so) in Eretz Yisrael could even bring to debate the concept of handing over land to arab's is only because the proposition was not dismissed out of hand by every responsible party, in and out of Eretz Yisroel, in the last 38 years.

What began in the days following the war (1967) as a clandestine rush by the "powers that be" to rid themselves of the "problem", followed in public by the lunatic fringe left elements, was then lent credence and thereby introduced into public debate, particulary in the "charedi" world, by the statement(s) I refered to in my post.

Words have repercussions. And if you think our enemies don’t find succor and ammunition in such statements, each one of which opened the door a little more to the possibility that has now become reality, then you are the fool.

bpunbound said...

Kurenitzer said....

"By the way the Gerer rebbes in Israel (especially the Bais Israel) were always mekarev the Chevroner bachurim and some became Gerer. (like the late gaon rav Shiloh Refael) I have never heard that it bothered the roshe yeshiva."

Exactly. Then why did it "stick in the craw" of certain individuals that a K'vutza of Ponovitch'a Bochorim left to join Lubavitch in the '50's.

Why is Ger viewed as being Mekarev Bochorim while Chabad 'kidnaps' and 'brainwashes'?

Anonymous said...

The Bais Yisroel saw his taking Bochurim from Chevron as a spiritual mission to save them from the doldrums that were Chevron in those days. The only difference was that Lubavitch didn't have the Rebbe himself doing it, rather other young bochurim.

bpunbound said...

I would characterize the mashpi'im in Toras Emes (referring to the anecdote I cited) as "other young bochurim".

Anonymous said...

would or would not?

bpunbound said...

apologies..would not!

Anonymous said...

Still, Mashpiyim in TE did not get the respect that the Bais Yisroel did.

Anonymous said...

I have not heard of a group of boys leaving Ponovizh and joining Chabad in the 50's.Are you sure of your info?It's true that Ponoviz had Lubavitcher boys at the time and some might have left to go to Lod.Rabbi Landau from Bnei Brak and his brother both attended Ponoviz

bpunbound said...

"Avremel said...

Still, Mashpiyim in TE did not get the respect that the Bais Yisroel did. "

True, but I would think they deserve to be at least a notch above the perception of "Vild'e Bochurim" "missionizing" in the street.

"Pipik said....

I have not heard of a group of boys leaving Ponovizh and joining Chabad in the 50's"

I haven't been to Pluto lately. I believe it's still there

Anonymous said...

BP
Dee beest azah typical chabadsker yold

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

sigh
why do I bother?