Thursday, September 22, 2005

......The more they stay the same


(למצולמים אין קשר לכתבה)

Jacob Mark in his classic work גדולים פון אונזער צייט believes that in near future generations the terms "Chossid" and "Misnaged" will be all but forgotten. Jews will live in peace and harmony, and will build communities of Torah and Chesed. He could not have been more wrong.


Misnagdim vs. Chabad, the fiercest rivalry since the times of Reb Yaakov Emden and Rav Yonoson Eibshitz, will seemingly exist as long as Chabad does, which basically means until Moshiach. It has existed through the worst of times, as in Soviet Russia and the Far East, with some exceptions, and through the best of times, as in post WW2 America and Eretz Yisroel. Who to point the balme at is somewhat of a argument, but here's my take.

My father may he be well, learned in Telzer Yeshivos for his entire adult life.
At that time there were very few records of Jewish music available, with Chabad, Modzitz amongst others out there, and Carlebach hadn't started doing his thing. Some of the Chassidisher Bochurim at the Shabbos table in Yeshivah innocently started a Chabad nigun. The Mashgiach, a young 20-something American-born man, who had recently "Charedified" after leaving RIETS, was livid. He would not have it. This singing must stop at once!

Sounds like a harmless story? think again.






In 5720, at the time of the story, there had been very little controversy regarding Chabad. Aside from the first Farbrengen I don't think there was something that the haters could sink their teeth in. Yet this young NOBODY found it neccessary to inform CHASSIDISHE BOCHURIM that Chabad is Treif! For him it was to be part and parcel of every Bochur's education under his care, because it was, for him, a lesson in life, something you need to always remember. Now of course every Chabad Bochur gets somewhat of a similar education, but we'll leave that for another time.



If you want to know what's wrong with American Charedi Torah Orthodox Jewry? You needn't look any further. It's American-born boors like him who shape the ideals of today's Jews through aspousing nothing but hate for others who don't just watch the waves of assimilation wash away generations of Jews, but rather stand and fight. These people of questionable backgrounds are the "leaders" and "Gedaylim" of the next generation.

I yearn for the simpler times.

54 comments:

Anonymous said...

Tzig:Is this the 'breaking news' you promised?Do you think I'd stand up for some guy who did not like Chabadsker niggunim???
The theological differences that Orthodoxy has with Chabad is not about music.

Anonymous said...

Btw, how did dad get from Telz to Lubavitch?I think R'shmuel Levitans son also learned in Telshe as did r'chaim gutnick.Rabbi Bloch, rosh yeshivas Telz actually studied Tanya and I believe there was even a va'ad in Tanya in Telshe 'in der alter heim'

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Pipik, if I could I'd predict every single comment of yours, it's that easy.

I'm trying to bring examples of unreasonable hate, that's all. This is the first in a series of theories and stories to back up my claims.

You need to sleep more.

Anonymous said...

perhaps the more anti lubavitch incidents the better....it gives an interest to bochurim to figure what its all about and defectors arise and come to lubav , sometimes a generation later.....your father experienced it with niggunim and now your are a chabad niggun mentch....

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

My father did not join Lubavitch. His 8 years in Telz however had very little effect on him, thankfully.

AMSHINOVER said...

where do you ever, find these pics? awesome

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

ah, the wonders of google.

Anonymous said...

The wonderful, everloving, "gedaylim" are the ones who replanted the seeds of hate in their young gooslings. They will all need to answer for that, and probably have already.

bpunbound said...

Hirshel,

I see you got an early start on Chai Elul this morning.

A real early start!

bpunbound said...

By the way Hirshel, not to deflect from the topic, but could you identify some of the participants in the farbrengen (or is that a kabolos ponim)?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

seated l-r
Reb Nissen Nemenov, Sholom Ber (choson), Reb Shlomo Aron Kazarnovsky, ?, Shia Korf, Hendel Liberman (Futerfas)

Anonymous said...

Bravo HT! May the Chayus of Elul inspire to realize that a Misnaged is a Miuse thing.

AMSHINOVER said...

yearn for the simpler times that never have/will happen

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Sholom Ber his son.
I believe the Raskin bros. standing? anybody else care to join in?

Avremel?

Anonymous said...

there is an unusual emphasis here on negativity...One could engage in historical analysis, exploration, philisophical conversations, 'setting the reocrd straight'...but what i see here is a paul of justifiable negativity and the promotion thereof that originates from the gloveless top... i would rethink the goals of this website and your inherant responsibilities as a lubav......

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

N
that's what I'm doing, rethinking. Got any better ideas?

Anonymous said...

hirshy,
i think that you need to first select a realm (entertainment, edification, historical analysis...)and then decide whether the blog arena works for your toopic and your audience..there are unique constraints on the web that nulify a good idea from working......

Anonymous said...

you just can't farbreng on a computer

Anonymous said...

געוואלד!

אינני יכול להתאפק אלא לצעוק צעקה גדולה "געוואלד".
עורו ישנים משנתכם ונרדמים מתרדמתכם
מתי יתעוררו - וועלן זיך אויפוועקן כל גדולי העסקנים שמועסקים בהנהגת "תבל" ועל העולם קטן של כרם חב"ד יוצ"ח מחמד עינינו מעלימים עין והולכים נשמות של תמימים ונפסדים ואין פוצה פה ומצפצף.
"געוואלד" תעשו חשבון נפש אמיתי - ביי זיך אליין, ותיראו מה נעשה בביתכם עם ילדיכם איפו הם?
עד מתי! תתעוררו כבר ותעזבו את כל השטותים של כבוד המדומה וכדומה, ותפשפשו במעשיכם ותתעוררו ותרחמו על נפשותיכם ועל נפש ילדיכם שיחיו.
החותם בלב השותת דם על החורבן של יוצ

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Pipik, if I didn't know better I'd say you were a provocateur trying to give Lithuanians a bad name.

AMSHINOVER said...

BTW when i was learnig in eretz yisrael the mashkiach told me i was not allowed to learn Tanya on the premises because he had a mesora against tanya,so i asked the rosh yeshiva (card carring solovietchik)he told me there is no such kabbla

Anonymous said...

Hirshel:I thought you opened the blog because you were sick of Tzemachs' censorings?
Again, the post censored had no vulgarities, jusT AN OPINION YOU DID NOT LIKE.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Profanity is not the only reason to censor, stupidity is too.

Anonymous said...

Amshi et al.
What would the menahel/mashgiach in a Chabadsker yeshiva tell a bochur learning Nefesh Hachayim for example or Vayoel Moshe or...etc.
Do you guys have not one bit of integrity that you''ll attack other groups where your own group is itself so partisans?
Another thing I never got:If you don't like Lutvacks, why in heaven have you SOUGHT TO LEARN there??Go to your own chabadsker/chassidishe yeshiva or shut up.My experience in yeshivas was:Normal well integrated chasidic boys never had a problem and did not need to throw stones into the well they were drinking from.The messed up chasidic wannabees, the guys who's parents would not allow them to wear the 'levush' SO they had to 'prove' themselves by closing their top shirt button, growing wild beards and peyos ,NOT LEARNING A WORD,but pretending to be into 'chassidus' AND having bad body odour.

Anonymous said...

'Profanity is not the only reason to censor, stupidity is too. '

So know you are blaming ME for the CHABADSKERS who call the Rebbe 'boreinu'?Who are they basing themselves on?Avi Ezri?
(When I was a kid I called things I could not handle 'stupid')

Anonymous said...

what can i tell you pipik, you're an asset to chabad. keep up the good work.

Anonymous said...

baachi:If all the whiners choose to go to Chabad or any other chassidishe INSTEAD of coming to Lutvisheh one and showing their 'gratitude' by bad mouthing it, because of yours truly.......'VEHOYO THE SECHORI'
'ah git gebentcht yoor'

Anonymous said...

Hershel
For the sake of sanity for all ofyour readers, please ban pipik and all the other names he uses.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Pipik fails to understand that after WW2 in America there was a powergrab as far as policymaking goes, with the loot going to Satmar and Lakewood. Now that they had that power they could decide who stays and who goes. Lubavitc was the first to go, or was it Rabbi Soloveitchik? never mind that. What I do find interesting is the way that they managed to neutralize Chabad completely within Orthodoxy, YU and the Modern Orthodox was easy, but Lubavitch? Nice work guys.

Anonymous said...

Mashpia of the Yeshivah would actually do nothing Pipik. Some Bochurim would tease, end of story.

Anonymous said...

Tzig:You talking about powergrabs??Lol, lubavitch are the mavens PAR EXCELLENCE in powergrabs.See Russia,Vilna,Kiev etc. Basically wherever they can get their hands into the cookie jar.
Chaim, you sound even more immature than most Chabadskers.You so scared of the truth that you need me banned?

Anonymous said...

'Another thing I never got:If you don't like Lutvacks, why in heaven have you SOUGHT TO LEARN there??Go to your own chabadsker/chassidishe yeshiva or shut up.My experience in yeshivas was:Normal well integrated chasidic boys never had a problem and did not need to throw stones into the well they were drinking from.The messed up chasidic wannabees, the guys who's parents would not allow them to wear the 'levush' SO they had to 'prove' themselves by closing their top shirt button, growing wild beards and peyos ,NOT LEARNING A WORD,but pretending to be into 'chassidus' AND having bad body odour.They 'blame' the lutvishe yeshivas instead of getting a good shrink.

Guys, will you step up to the plate and answer my previously posted question.
Ad mosai!!!

Milhouse said...

I have a cousin (from the Stoliner side of my family) who learned at Ner Yisroel in the '70s. He told me that one day the mashgiach got a hisorerus, and went through the library, gathered up all the seforim by chassidic authors (e.g. the Rav's Shulchan Aruch) and put them in a locked cabinet; any bachur who needed to look something up in one of these sefarim had to go to the mashgiach, and explain which sefer he wanted and why.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Pipik, tone it down will you? You're annoying all of us.

Let's see.....
there's 1) Lakewood
2) Ner Israel
3) Ponovezh
4) Torah VoDaas

what do these 4 have in common?

Anonymous said...

pipik, no one needs to answer your inane questions unless they feel like it.

I didn't know it was a power grab to live in poverty, work day and night, and be booted the moment the smell of money is in the air. How interesting. Perhaps I'll have the honor of wishing you a power grab then.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

does anybody else notice how the guy cannot carry on a conversation without deviating to a totally unrelated point?

Anonymous said...

in Ner Israel they had a good mentor in these matters, a certain Rabbi R.

Anonymous said...

Avremel:For you info, Rabbi Ruderman was from a Chabad backround and used to study Tanya.Really.I know it may sound crazy, but to make sure I asked his grandson.He affirmed it

Anonymous said...

I heard from his other grandson that he never opened a Tanya.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Pipik, please refrain from revising history on the fly.

Anonymous said...

Hirshel:Look, what I wrote about R'Ruderman being of Chabad backround is true.Whenever he travelled the sefer he took with him was a Tanya.I heard this from his grandson.Ask Sheftel Neuberger his eynikel.
Now it's also true that Rav Ruderman was not a fan of todays Lubavitch.

Anonymous said...

ht, pipik is the only one with a pulse around here....dont ejest him so fast....

Anonymous said...

Ner Israel is a modern yeshiva- many of my friends went there in the past because the Yeshiva has good connections with the local university. Now that there are "kosher" universities, and other universities that accept undergraduate degrees from Yeshivas, Ner is moving to the right.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Rabbi R was not a fan of Chabad of 2 generations ago either, he learned not to be in Slabodke.

Anonymous said...

My dear friend Tzig:I may be ignorant but am unaware of any special 'hisnagdus' to Rasha'b.In fact R'Chaim Soloveitchik appeared to appreciate him enough to have talmudical discussions with him.(The respect seems mutual.At a Shabbos spent in the same city Rashab requested R'Chaim say a vort in public, in front of Rashab and his chassidim)This mutual admiration appears to have been lost in subsequent generations.
Tzig:You don't get it:Hisnagdus to LUBAVITCH(as opposed to a watered down theological difference with chasidim in general)STARTED from dor hashishi

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Who was the one to stop the admiration? Little Mentshalach who claim to follow in the ways of Reb Chaim, but have very little in common with him. The subsequent Rabbeyim would've been more than happy to continue the relationship.

Anonymous said...

Tzig, you as a Chabadsker WILL obviously blame it on the 'other' side.A classic misnaged will blame your side.The objective frummer yid will probably tell you there is enough blame for both sides to share.Unfortunately with the advent of the meshichsten who are going around hanging billboards proclaiming the Rebbe as alive, breaking plaques in 770 to worldwide publicity and much ,much more, including a tiny contingent that has actually turned the Rebbe in a deity who 'created' them, it has become extremely difficult not to see that those rabbonim who had a problem with latter day Lubavitch did not have a very strong point

Anonymous said...

pipik fan, it's not a pulse, he's rabid like a dog. If you mistake that for life, nu.

pipik, have you heard of talak is nisht kein tolk? It may be taking longer than the two or so years it took then to correct the meshichisten, but it will still happen. And your talk of relativity of hatred gets boring after a while.

Anonymous said...

Guravitzer an 'apologist'??
You seemed like a guy with integrity!
Two years to get rid of Meshichisten?Lol!!!
Two years from now they have even more strength.When did they open their own girls school in C.H?Last two years.The truth is well known to Chabad insiders:The meshichisten are a GROWING force!
(Btw, if calling me names makes you feel good..............

Anonymous said...

"The truth is well known to Chabad insiders:The meshichisten are a GROWING force!"

For what this insider's perspective is worth, I think you are completely wrong.

Anonymous said...

B d A and gurev,
who is doing and what is actively being done to eradicate mshichisten anarchy ? an infection needs a remedy..and most of what i see is pure mohat m'gandi in lubavitch...maybe lubav could use a live virus like some satmar tactics and clean house while were all still alive...what should have been put down a long time ago just festers and encroaches into chabad as standard dogma and there appears to be no end, never mind a beginning to nulify this....

Anonymous said...

Look, I would have gone about it differently for sure, but nevertheless, the sane stream id growing.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I think Shefetel Neuberger is his nephew if I'm not mistaken.

Anonymous said...

Right you are.Sorry.