Thursday, January 18, 2007

Toroso Umnoso - Not like it used to be


Kolel Shuvu Bonim in Old Jerusalem

There's been some talk on the internet about an article that was featured on YNet, The Yediot Acharonot website, about the price of marrying off a Frum girl in Israel. Apartments need to be bought, and bank accounts full of cash needs to be opened, all so that this Tchachkele can klap di Baychel that he sits and learns, and the Vaybel can tell her friends that her husband is an "Avrech." All that needs to be said about the poor fathers of those girls has already been said. Brooklyn Wolf had some words about it here. Forgive me if I end up sounding like Harry Maryles here, that's honestly not my intention. What I'd like to focus on is the Torah aspect of it, meaning how the idea of continuing full-time learning goes hand in hand with needing a paid-up apartment with no mortgage on it, and a bank account with One Hundred Thousand Dollars in it.

It used to be, in Di Alte Heim in Lita, when The Talmud Teyreh in Kelm was founded for married students, that the family had a home or lived in a small shack at the edge of town. Some of them WERE married to the daughters of affluent men and could afford to live like that. Those that didn't lived BeDochek and made due with almost nothing. They were Maymis Atzmom just to be able to learn Torah. The results were clear, we saw great men emerge from those situations, men of great diligence and knowlege. We also fail to realize that these were a handful of people, and it was something that was done, at least the organized Kolel, only in one or two small towns, not like today. Yet, the same people who are supposedly carrying on the traditions of Reb Yisroel Salanter and his disciples are the ones who instituted this mass system of all married men not working, and Shlepper fathers of these girls needing to somehow marry off his children! Who allowed for this to happen?!


(a shul in Kelm, Lithuania)

I have people knocking on my door, Jews from Eretz Yisroel, who are stuck in this rut that was created there. One guy has been coming once a year with the following story: "Ich Hob - Ohn ayin Horah - Fertzen kinder, un ich hub shoyn Chasunah gemacht acht fun zei. Ich hub zei alle gekoyft direhs, un Itzter halt ich bay dem Naynter kind. Efsher kent ihr mir helfen mit a sheine nesineh?" So I, the zhlob who still hasn't bought an apartment for HIMSELF should help this guy who never worked a day in his life buy 14 apartments for his kids?! Does that make sense to anybody. But of course the softie in me takes over and the guy gets a check anyway. Then there are the other ones that come every single year just to cover their daily expenses. They have yet to marry off kids and will be here twice a year once that wheel begins to turn. Is this why we tell people not to go to work, so that they should become perpetual schnorrers?

The worst part of all this is the ones that suffer are those that did have that Mesiras Nefesh for Torah, and didn't have that rich Shver to support them throughout all those years of learning. They're stuck with the house full of old maids who are less desirable by the day. I'm surprised these people don't start a mass exodus from the Yeshivishe movement, I guess it's tought to get up and start over again and that age. But again, what's the point of such so-called תורתו אומנתו if it destroys any semblance of a normal life and leaves no room for actual learning since your mind is exploding with worry over creditors and Mechtonim! This situation is not limited to Israel as we know, but at least in the US working for a living is not frowned upon, so the man has a fighting chance to actually make a living. I wonder though what would happen if there wasn't mandatory military service in Israel for all men. Would we still have that many learners? i doubt it. Please don't call me a guy "who hates Torah and Talmidei Chachomim," it's simply not true.

42 comments:

Anonymous said...

You bring up a problem facing the Ultra Orthodox world, however,'sino mekalkeles' and you 'blame' it on the yeshiva velt.
The truth is that most people collecting to marry off kids are chassidim and Yerushalmi yidden.It's easy to call these people names but the truth is that it's very,very difficult to make a living in Eretz Yisroel.A father who has the messirus nefesh of coming to America to 'schnorr' and buying an apartment for every kid, knows at least that he has given the child a solid start .Think of the ammount of meshulochim that would come over if they did not even have this basic detail.Btw, it's wishful thinking that these kids get a paid off apartmen plus a 100k in the bank:What they get, if they are lucky is a down payment through both sides and the kids pay off a mortgage.It's probably about 25k from each side to marry off a kid in a simple fashion.
N.B. If frum Jews in America wanted they could buy apartments for everybody, there are unbelievable ammounts of money amongst our frum gevirim.Hirshel ,I wish that you join those ranks bekoroiv

Camp Runamok said...

Hirshel,

No, you just don't get it. When one of these parents of Avreichim comes to you asking you to forward the down payment on your house to them they are doing you a favor. They are giving you a golden opportunity, as a working zhlob..., er, partner to share a portion among those for whom תורתו אומנתו. They are condescending to give you a mere ziv hashechinah of their light; to make you the Zevulun to their Yisso[s]chor. How dare you even question the Yoshrus of their entitlement to your earnings?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Rachmones

with the Chassidim the idea is a different one. They're of the opinion that immediately upon the world of business, especially if one needs to deal with Goyim (as if in Marmures the Jews didn't deal with the Puyer, right?) the young man will Frei out. So how can he go work?

The Yerushalmim follow a two hundred year old tradition, that of sitting of learning and enjoying the fruits of the Chalukah from Jews in the diaspora. The problem is that while it was once a few thousand Jews today it's hundreds of thousands, and the Chalukah only goes so far, especially since expenses are exponentially greater.

Only the Lithuanians have decided that Es kumt zich zei to sit and learn while others sweat for them, hence the reason they receive the brunt of my wrath.

Anonymous said...

This is the reality of misnagdish approach to life. They always preferred to be prushim, but today it became popular to be a porush exclusivily on someone else's expense. What is the most troubling, that many chasidim adopted such approach. What is even worse, that some people who don't work consider it a merit to depend on other, and look down on those who don't want to be a burden for others. In Eretz Ysroel litvaks pushed it way overboard, in America it has a hungarian flavor, but the foundation is the same - not chasidic mentality and system of values.

The issue with buying houses freaks me out. I simply don't understand how it works. A "funny story" (our times). Once there lived a poor melamed. He rented an apartment, and when his balabos wanted to raise the rent he wasn't happy at all. So... he went and bought a house!!!

Anonymous said...

Hirshel
You are apparently unable to see past your biases.You always pick on mythical 'Litviseh bnei teyreh',I'm willing to bet that the guy with 14 kids who comes to you,if indeed he is not a moshol, in not a Litviser ben teyreh.
I agree that the problem is real,I also think that since parnoses in Eretz Yisroel are not easy this problem is not going to go away and effects all chareidim.I'd like to add that most people who complain about schorrers are well to do and 'ess felt nit kan gelt in America'.As far as I'm concerned, we in the diaspora should be happy that we can alleviate the pressures of our Israeli brethren.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Rachmones

I'll be glad to alleviate other people's pressures, and I do, believe me. I just wish they wouldn't come into my apartment and decide that based on my dining room I should give a total stranger 100 dollars when at the end of the money there may be lots of month left....

Camp Runamok said...

Rachmones,

"I'd like to add that most people who complain about schorrers are well to do and 'ess felt nit kan gelt in America'."

You are operating, I fear, under the mistaken assumption that American streets are paved with gold. I assure you that for most frummer yidden 4-5 yeshiva tuitions, a big house in a shtatty neighborhood, "glatt" kosher, etc. doesn't leave much discretionary income at the end of the month unless you earn well into 6-figures. I still drive a 14 year old rustbucket that should have been replaced a long time ago.

"If frum Jews in America wanted they could buy apartments for everybody, there are unbelievable ammounts of money amongst our frum gevirim."

Honestly, more of that money would be better spent shoring up American yeshivos and day schools that are struggling financially while they try to keep tuitions "affordable".

Anonymous said...

Just wait till your daughter starts dating the TOP Bochur in Chevron. You'll be the one going around collecting for the dirah.

Anonymous said...

Your comments would carry more weight if the world was not full of Chabad shluchim whose living comes from...?

Yup, shnorring.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

it must be all that fog that clouds your judgement, London Snag, because the analygy just isn't there.

Anonymous said...

Why?

Anonymous said...

Actually the weather in London is downright stormy right now.Europe has been hit by disaster rain and winds, for the first time in its history Deutsche Bahn, the rail company in Germany stopped all trains across Germany

Anonymous said...

Shluchim 'schnor' for their mosdos and legitimate activities (those with a decent following don't have to struggle to raise money all the time, friends give ma'aser)and take a minimum for rent and family expenses, unless a donor insists that this months allotment should go entirely to the family, in which case the shliach might get a new car, or many the donor got a new car and gave his jeep to the shliach, etc. you can't really know so don't be quick to judge. Then there are shluchim who have side businesses.
And shluchim who live in plaves where it's near impossible to raise money, so they must go abroad once a year.
Some of these people live on cornflakes in rented apts, everything goes into the school and shul, so again, don't generalize.

Anonymous said...

Ht, You are cracked. You infer facts from an inflamatory article in the secular press about chareidim and then with all your 'proofs' chastise yidden with such hatred. You would make a good communist or facist. No one is forcing you to give nor is anyone forcing this man to collect. Its the lifestyle that he chooses (don't give if you don't want to) and its consistent with yiddishkeit. Whats your problem? live and let live. Don't be a social architect with gratuituous hate for yidden. No good will result from this. Be a real Lubavitcher and work on yourself and influence those around you for G-d's sake; abandon this yetzer hora of 'intellectuality'(in your case a fancied up justification for hatred and condemnation of yidden. Get a life. If not for yourself for those around you. Tshuva now!

Anonymous said...

I love how people daily write posts about chabad claiming they know everything about it and why it is going down the drain and poisoning world Jewry, yet when one guy tries to analyze the yeshiva world he is showered in curses and pushed away.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

N

is it possible that one opinion makes you either a facist or a communist? I mean aren't they diamertically opposed to each other?

You obviously misundersatnd me.

Anonymous said...

tzigele,
both titles are totalitarian in nature. You have an intolerance of other kosher lifestyles, and if an issue is litvak related, you see red and feel license to blast them. its shocking that you do it, and more so that you do it in a public forum.

Anonymous said...

n, tibaleh here. I beg to differ with you on this point. what is happening in the frum world today in israel is a crime. & the criminals are those so called gedolim that sanction a life of ,חובות heart attacks R"L & extreme poverty.

as r" yoel pointed out once that this is a totally new style in yidishkeit that did not exist in the past. & please spare me the medroshim "יאה עניותא לישראל" & the like.

Anonymous said...

Tzibaleh
You are going overboard by calling choshuveh talmidei chachomim criminals.You may see things differently, but some basic respect,please!

Anonymous said...

tzig, although you raise a lot of legitimate questions, I would humbly like to ask why doesn't Lubavitch have a koillel, at least one in America and one in Eretz Yisroel, where lomdishe Chabad avreichim, if there are any,should sit and learn all their life? Does everybody have to go on shlichus or doesn't life long dedication to learning constitute the ultimate shlichus? How many universally accepted lamdonim has the system produced in the last few years? Think about it.

Anonymous said...

yoshe kalb, you must be kidding!
"universally accepted" lubavitcher lomdim? who in the world will accept them ? the sinas chinom snag crowd?!!

Anonymous said...

''Sinas chinom snag crowd''
...and with that earlier comment, you, Tzibaleh have called a very large group of yidden 'sonei chinom' in fact, what you really mean is the whole Litvishe oilem hayeshivos.Think about this for a sec:Did you ever hear from the Rebbe anything remotely similar?
You, my friend should learn a bit about ahavas yisroel,stop labeling Jews with nasty names.

Anonymous said...

feivel, thanks for you righteous suggestions! i'm going right now.

Camp Runamok said...

"...other kosher lifestyles..."

Any lifestyle that structurally demands its adherents beg for a living, accumulate crushing debt loads, and ultimately go bankrupt is not kosher.

Anonymous said...

Schnorers? Is that what you call a lazy bum?

Anonymous said...

Interesting why the Lubab are always calling othere 'soney chinom'?
Is it the classic projection syndrome,what is known in chazal as 'mum shebecho'?

Anonymous said...

"I would humbly like to ask why doesn't Lubavitch have a koillel, at least one in America and one in Eretz Yisroel, where lomdishe Chabad avreichim, if there are any,should sit and learn all their life?"
Mr. Bias - if there are any. You don't deserve an answer, but other innocent readers do. Aside from the obvious, that the litvishe kollel system is corrupt and bankrupt and has produced no more Gedolim than non Kollel prewar Europe, the answer is the same as to the next question.

"Does everybody have to go on shlichus or doesn't life long dedication to learning constitute the ultimate shlichus?"
Yes, everyone does, and not only Chabad. Eis Laasos LaHashem, Heferu Torasecho. Out of 13 Million known Jews, at least half do not even know the letters of the Alef Bais. The ultimate shlichus is bringing Moshiach Tzidkeinu.

"How many universally accepted lamdonim has the system produced in the last few years?"
The aspiration of Chabad is to never produce a universally accepted morally blind politically connected surrounded by sycophants lamdon. We have many, and you are welcome to come and get to know them.

Anonymous said...

Interesting that anonymous posters are always using derogatory terminology like "Lubab" when criticizing. Is it the classic projection syndrome,what is known in chazal as 'mum shebecho'? :-P

Anonymous said...

In the Israeli Erev Rosh Hashona Mishpacha journal they interviewed Rav Karelitz the former Mayor of Bnai Berak,his answer for the question on How come he left the Torah world ( he was a Rosh Kolel), he quoted Maran Shach that "Oisek Betzorchai Tzibur" is on a higher level then Talmud Torah, it shocked me that suddenly when they need it for their power struggle, we found a new halacha,as typical of Maran he did not give a Marie Mokom because Maran was Etzem Hatora.

Hirshel addressed a painful situation, Polish jewry went down the tubes for 1 reason, if parents dont have bread on their table for their kids they loose the power of influence, and they will look for it some place else.

Anonymous said...

hmmmm, I don't need to come and to get to know them, because that's where I come from.And please don't patronize me,because I know exactly how many bocherim ( and future shluchim ) are capable to learn from the blatt or learn independently. If not for the Rebbe's sichois, they would be unable to say anything substantial.I think it's about time to produce our own torah-personalities and not only import them (Rav Heller etc).And don't forget that a hmmmm results easily in a grebtz.

Anonymous said...

That should be, "we have many lamdonim."

Anonymous said...

yoshe, in other words, you are not willing to take up the challenge. Another one snagged.

Anonymous said...

Hmmm
Why are you always so nasty?

Anonymous said...

hmmm,"we have many lamdonim ". Right, especially among the Tz'fattim.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Yoshe

I respect your honesty and objectivity, but how did this become a competition of who produces more Lomdim?

Anonymous said...

Hirshel, this is not a competition of who produces more lomdim. I simply don't agree with condemning the idea of kollel a priori. If you ever studied the AR's Hilchos Talmud Toireh, you will have to agree, that studying is the ultimate purpose of a Yid and there is no beating around the bush about that. I agree, that not everybody is suited for this, but the concept of lifelong study seems to have no place in Lubavitch nowadays, although I am convinced, that Lubavitch has enough resources - human, intellectually and monetary - to provide for a select few for this purpose. Tomche T'mimim at its inception was meant only for the top of the top and produced Torah giants, that were universally accepted and recognized. Look at its present state and you'll see that it's a far cry from what it really should be ( וד'ל ). I read recently in "Kfar Chabad" in an interview with one of the Roshe Yeshiveh,that "there is a place for every bochur in TT" and that is, in my humble opinion, exactly the problem. We don't need quantity, we need quality.

Anonymous said...

No Yoshe, we need quantity which produces quality. As the Gemoro tells us 400 benches were added on that day...

Tzig, you're a hoot. A diplomatic hoot.

Pinny, I study under the tutelage of Reb Michoel Weiner. Unsnagging is a nast business.

Anonymous said...

Yoshe's big mistake: Tomchei Tmimim was for the top of the top - which meant those who were ready for Mesiras Nefesh. Not lamdonim, although you had to be intelligent. Nice try.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Hmmm

You need to stop using that tone with Yoshe, he's not one of the bad guys. really.

do you mean Michael Savage?

Anonymous said...

I think the discussion has come to a dead end with all arguments brought forward more or less, so let's give it a rest and try to be Chassidim,Lamdonim and Yirei Shomaim.

Anonymous said...

Nice concession speech. :-)

Anonymous said...

Dear Yoshe
It's the opposite, the AR in his Talmud Torah writes that if after a few years of study you reliase that you have no potential to be a rov (he uses different halachic terminology)then you should go to work and be machzik torah, and do kaviath itim letorah, this is the true torah way,