Tuesday, December 14, 2010
"Flatbush" (Interesting POV - Guest Post)
E15th and J. Not Kosher.
In the last couple of years, Chabad’s presence in Flatbush has increased and there are several “shluchim” who actually make a difference in people’s lives. Recently, the Lubavitcher yungerman who runs the operation on Ave J, has been admitted as a full time student Kollel Gur Aryeh on Coney Island; a testimony as to how Chabad has been “accepted” by the Yeshiva World and how times are changing -for better and for worse. Be that as it may, IMHO, the fact that Lubavitch is having success is not a good sign for the community. It is a manifestation of Flatbush’s un-Torahdikeh environment. To put it simply: if Flatbush would be a stronghold for serious yeshivaleit, the reaction to Chabad would not be as welcoming. IOW: the “welcoming” of Chabad, is an indication – perhaps a subtle one – that true Bney Teyreh are persona non grata.
My friends,It is not easy being a Ben Teyreh in Flatbush. First there is the education of the kinderlach. Contrary to Lakewood where provided one is deemed a “true ben Teyreh or has pull, you can have your pick of many different levels of exclusive chadorim, in Flatbush you have no other choice but to send the kids to a “community” school where there kids of all stripes and denominations. Then there is the actual standard of living. In Flatbush, it is much harder and less socially acceptable to be on the “programmin”. One doesn’t have the luxury of living with other yungerleit in a claustrophobic attached-on-both-sides development where one is not expected to have two cars. To make the problem worse, Flatbush has been recently invaded by a group of tuna-bagels (TEE-NUH BAY-GILS) who erected this monstrous edifice known as the POMEGRANATE. For many of your neighbors, they associate a religious experience with walking into that store and being awed by the variations of galah, herring, dips with the take out section of fish, meat and fresh baked goods (let’s not get started with the different types of six-hour cheeses). Obviously, a true-blooded sensitive Ben Torah does not feel at home in an ostentatious environment of overindulgence, luxus, and materialism – even if his family shtams from the Oberland.
Of course, In Lakewood, many can eventually afford to buy a house – somehow. Once the down payment is accounted for, the mortgage can be paid by renting out the basement to Pedro Sr., with Pedro Jr. and more importantly, Pedro III – the ticket to everyone’s citizenship – whose tuition at the local public school is covered by the property tax paid by the oylam. In Flatbush, if you are not an SY, or you don’t have a rich uncle, there is no way it is going to be feasible to buy a house [unless, you want to buy next door to a Beis Menahcem, vedal]. That means that if you want to learn in Flatbush, you probably would have to move to Marine Park (also not so cheap) or to Kensington. Perhaps the biggest problem is more of a nuanced and subtle and is of the sociological nature. You see, in Lakewood, the bal-ha-batim know their place and many of the relatively younger ones have an inferiority complex that they are “working” [unless they do “very well”]. Basically, although no one really says it publically, the working class is expected to accept their fate and acknowledge – at least subtlety- that they sit where Rosa Parks refused to. In Flatbush, in the last ten years, this is has all changed. The reason, in short: Rav Avrumy Schorr.
Rav Avrumy has changed the way the Flatbush working guy, whose years of hasmadah and cheshek in Yiddishkeit (if it ever existed) are something of the distant past. He has rejuvenated many and now the bal-ha-bus can walk with a spring in his gait. He is special. He gets to hear the standard reyd from the Poylishe seforim (sprinkled with some other sources) on a weekly basis. Unlike ones not-so-fond memories of days in yeshiva with “boring” melamdim - this new Rebbe is dynamic. His face can turn beet red, as long as he is twirling his peyos with enough concentration. He follows in the way of the Beis Yisroel as he paces up and down the aisles and stares – and he does not have a chair by his seat, ala the Beis Yisroel. Rav Avrumy, who has family member who are respected Chassidim, due no doubt to his impressive resume and tenure in many yeshivas, has learned the age old trick in building people’s self-esteem and making them feel good: “muhn” something from the crowd. There is no better source of self pride than having an authority figure actually expect something from you! But I must say, Rav Avrumy perfected this age-old technique. Instead of “just” muhning, he actually speaks about things and hasagos that are much higher than where the oylam is holding. As a result, one can have the proverbial cake and eat it to; get “muhned” and feel no need to change one’s life one iota – just sit back and enjoy the monologue. Although, Rav Avrumy has finally found his calling and his presence is overall beneficial to the denizens of Flatbush, it is questionable on its affect on transforming Flatbush into an ihr v’aym b'yisroel.
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guest says "Rav Avrumy perfected this age-old technique. Instead of “just” muhning, he actually speaks about things and hasagos that are much higher than where the oylam are holding,"
CHABAD is for sure things and hasagos that are much higher than where the oylam are holding,"
i don't know that much aboit flatbush, but you know even less about Lakewood.
He has a tuna Beigiel in shul or two or is it that a shred one from Next store?
I heard that their is a split in the shteebel of reb Avremele Shor, is their some truth to it? , or it is enemies?
whoever wrote this piece should get a Pulitzer price for the anthropology analysis on our Flatbush brethren.
eventough alot of ends are still loose, is not the Syrian Jewish Population to blame for the change of Flatbush?
I don"t think that the non toradike atmosphere helped the spread of Chabad, Lakewood has his Chabad shul, with a presence of many yeshiva guys davening their.
"CHABAD is for sure things and hasagos that are much higher than where the oylam are holding"
Chabad is not taught to create your self a fat ego,it iss the contrary.Avremel Shor, comes from the school that "men Redt Zum Pupik" so what the hell is he "muning" from the Flatbush fat cats?
I sometimes find myself a frustrated fan of yours (even more frustrated than a Yankee fan this week Vedal). Parts of this piece are so brilliant but you make such basic mistakes that really take away from the rest of the piece. I used to live in Flatbush, I now live in Lakewood so I know of what I speak. Your points about Lubavitch in Flatbush, R' A Schorr, and Pomegranate are spot on. However there are some embarrassing errors. For example there is not one frum person in Lakewood who rents their own basement to a Pedro. Not for moral reasons, just for concern for their own safety. Pedro is renting a house from the same guy but its a 2nd home that is probably not his neighborhood. Another example is that if someone wants to be a Yeshiva Man he lives in Marine Park? Do you know what is going on in Marine Park (Facebook swingers etc.)? It is not exactly a bastion of Bnei Torah. You need to do some basic fact checking with some buddies before you post a piece. For myself who knows of what you speak in the good parts of the piece it is fine. However it takes a piece that is so brilliant and makes some guy in Flatbush or Lakewood reading this and says to himself this guy doesn't know what he is talking about and that is a shame.
If you read the heading, it clearly stated that Tzig didn't write it. Now getting to your points. Read it again, and you will see that I didn't say that the Hispanics live in yeshiva apartments or in Berl Leifer's basement.
There are some yung-leit who live in Marine Park. Maybe they aren't the echteh bney Torah and they can acclimate to the svivah.
"Read it again, and you will see that I didn't say that the Hispanics live in yeshiva apartments or in Berl Leifer's basement."
I don't know, what does this mean?
"Once the down payment is accounted for, the mortgage can be paid by renting out the basement to Pedro Sr., with Pedro Jr. and more importantly, Pedro III – the ticket to everyone’s citizenship – whose tuition at the local public school is covered by the property tax paid by the oylam."
And as Snagvill writes correctly, there is not one person in Lakewood who rents out a basement to Pedro of any #
You also have to deal with these faginerrs who focus on a minor detail and ignore a whole post?
Yes, I deal with Umfarginners all the time, but half the time they focus on a completely DIFFERENT matter, not even minute, insignificant points!!
So do you agree that no Yeshivaleit rent out to "Pedro?"
They rent out a house, not a basement.
Being accepted to Kollel Gur Aryeh is a good thing? Really? With all of the sheker that exists within those walls of that Yeshiva? Really?
What an unusually stupid and small-minded article. You never cease to amaze me with your ability to see the worst in everyone. I know - you didn't write it - you only printed the next guy's chiddush - but it reflects on you and you are a sad and angry man full of hatred for everyone.
How pathetic. How sad. I cry not for the fact that you became a Chabadsker. I'm sure there are some very wonderful and special people in Chabad and I have nothing negative to say about it. I cry for the fact that you're a bitter and hateful person who thrives on posting hateful drivel that mocks any and all.
One thing is for damn certain - whether the Rebbe z"l was/is Moshiach, I have no idea, but whoever Moshiach is, he aint coming so long as you and your ilk continue along this path.
Who was accepted to Chaim Berlin??
Yossi Muss? Well he IS a Chaim Berliner who comes from a Modern backround and became Chabad.He IS most of the reason that the Chabad shul on J is doing well,btw.He comes from a wealthy real estate family and knows how to run things well.Additionally he is a nice guy.
If you are talking about Morozov, the rabbi, I highly doubt he learns in Chaim Berlin.
Whatever the case the Ave J Chabad shul is "staffed" by Chabadniks and affiliates, not your average Flatbush Baal habos.
Hoefully someone will be able to verify the fact about Chaim Berlin and the Chabad shul on J.
The real reason Chabad has a quite a few shuls in Flatbush is because Crown Heights is a not a very nice place to live in because of being an inner city neighborhood and the in-fighting, so you have some Lubavitchers leaving, some not moving to Crown Heights and a nice comfy place to be a shliach with a huge Jewish community, safe neighborhood, ample Jewish stores, pizza and ice cream joints.Every Motsoei Shabbes you can see scores of Lubavitchers "letting their hair down" in a safe yiddishe neigborhood with good resteraunts.
There is a new Lubavitch "lite" shul run by a guy called Vigler called Nishmas Yisroel iirc.He actually gets some regular Flatbush people to come
Rabbi Vigler is not a Lubavitch shul its MAyan a netwirk of Lubavitch Lite shuls as you call them
based on the fact that you're in the extreme minority here I'm gonna ignore your long-winded comment.
Better luck next time.
Sorry for missing that it was a guest post. Now for the shots taken at me that I was focused on minute details, that shtams for my respect for Tzig (as I missed that it wasn't written by him) that I expect better from him. You might say it is minute points but when the mistakes are so glaring like I said it takes away from the piece. If Tzig would write a brilliant piece about Belz and then say how it fits since they are from Hungary would that be a small mistake? The point is that a small mistake that is so basic displays a lack of knowledge that takes away from the piece. BTW, the fact that Hirshel posted my comment without defending himself and saying he didn't write the piece, speaks well for him. B"H I could say Ashre Yoladato without praising a Chabadsker!
whats all this fury?
did some hot coffee spill on your white crispy shirt, and ruined your day. You are venting your rage on Tzig for being the Machnis Orach for the guest writer?
"B"H I could say Ashre Yoladato without praising a Chabadsker"
what you do if a Gezha Chabadsker would do you a favor, you will refrain from praising? how exactly will you handle it? can you aak the Gedolim for me?
Trim your beard it is getting into your coffee and get yourself a sense of humor.
who is berel lifer?
"who is berel lifer?"
Some Mechanich who decided to become a Rebbe. And did (his father is the nadvorna Rebbe of Queens now in BP, and his father in law is his uncle, the Dinover Rebbe now in Williamsburg). After being a tough mechanic who tried to start a Shomrim in lakewood, he decided to become a Rebbe, and now did shidduchim with the Lellover of BP and Goldman from Bobbev!!
Berel Leifer in his pre-mechanic days was known as the Ninja Rebbe. He was a body builder.
If AS such a Tzadick why has he been fired from evrey job he has ever had? Skver,Spink,Tosh,Krasna,Bais Mayer etc.
Why is AS roidef Lipa Schmeltzer more than a child molester?
When AS and his sycophants from Nechomas Yisroel were leading the fight against the "Big Event" why did they have to resort to falsehoods? If Lipa and Mendolwitz are so bad why can't they be fought truthfully?
No my dear Tzigella
I'm not in the minority. The little minions that join you in poking fun at everyone are the minority - the majority doesn't waste it's time with you and I won't either.
I won't be needing luck but thank you for the kind blessings anyhow.
Stop and think about the derech you've chosen and maybe something will change.
he decided to become a Rebbe, and now did shidduchim with the Lellover of BP and Goldman from Bobbev!!
you mean tauber, the rov of bobov?
For all of the good work that Chabad does there comes a price. In two conversations that I have had in the past with two people intimately involved in seperate communties abroad with small Jewish populations they have both complained of an almost identical issue in almost identical language. This seems to be part of what is going on here aswell.
Both people complained that before Chabad’s arrival there were functioning communal institutions and after their arrival they had left such institutions in shambles leading people away from the community and Jewish education. Both stated that Chabad is good when they are in the middle of no-where and also when they are in the middle of a large community but that they destroy small functioning communities. Seemingly this is because their agenda is based around propogating Chabad chassidism and hashkafa over many other things.
Perhaps such an approach has created this current controversy
Monsey is called "Monsey" because everyone there has money. What about the "S"? Es Lerabos Talmidai Chachamim
It is a nice blood libel to start the winter, you can compete with the small town preacher with his church of pitchfork peasants.
The shluchim come in to a town that is corrupted and rusted, and they shake it up to the core. People start feeling that Yiddishkiet has more to sell then the President of the shul wants to offer them.I was involved with a Shaliach that had a Rav in his town with long beard with a chassidic affiliation.
The Gittins, Gierus, Mikva and Kashrus were hefker mamesh, the shaliach in his own ways put the town in shape, and that idiot takes universal credit.
Ask your rav a Shala if you have a halacha of Malbi Pnie Chavairo Berabim? Maybe the Torah did not have in mind the Internet?
Both the post stating: "Recently, the Lubavitcher yungerman who runs the operation on Ave J, has been admitted as a full time student Kollel Gur Aryeh on Coney Island; a testimony as to how Chabad has been “accepted” by the Yeshiva World and how times are changing -for better and for worse."
and the retort by: "Flatbush dude said...Who was accepted to Chaim Berlin?? Yossi Muss? Well he IS a Chaim Berliner who comes from a Modern backround and became Chabad.He IS most of the reason that the Chabad shul on J is doing well,btw.He comes from a wealthy real estate family and knows how to run things well.Additionally he is a nice guy. If you are talking about Morozov, the rabbi, I highly doubt he learns in Chaim Berlin."
Tzrichim iyun gadol!
It's a new CB puzzle, but perhaps in keeping with the "blunders from the top" by RAS that began with the attack on the sheitel macher store about three years ago, then the banning of the LIPA concert, the support for Michael Hersh, Tropper, now the Kranczer scandal (Tropper, Hersh and Kranczer are all close disciples of RAS, and Hersh and Kranczer are talmidim of RAS), attacks against bloggers, the new attack on VIN.
In the past, RAS personally appointed his oldest son in law, Elya Yormark to bounce ANY Lubavitcher who stepped onto the premises for whatever reasons, with no exceptions. Now comes the news that a grand exception has been made and that a Lubavitcher now learns in CB. If its Yosef Muss, he has been around at CB for a long time. He came about 30 years ago as a fresh young bochur who had become frummer than his family, basically a BT, it's a safek if his father was really frum at all, maybe at most very modern, but they wanted him to go into the family's mega real estate business, which would explain why Muss would get a free pass at CB, his close relations with RAS as talmid and RAF in business (nice mix of kemach and Toirah), while any other Lubavitcher would be bounced out pronto.
The great question is if this is a quantum improvement or yet another sign of the dramatic decline of CB under RAS? Time will tell, and we will not have to wait very long to find out.
welcome back our favorite poster, chaim berlin tragedy, its a tragedy youve been away for so long!
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