Tuesday, August 14, 2007
Machlokes L'sheym Shomayim?!
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Schneur commenting on Circus Tent: a story for Koov-Voov-Oov
Gershon. Please do not re-write history. Satmar was run by Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum, and it was he and his disciples who launched terror campaigns against people like Rav Moshe Feinstein, the Kloizenberger Rebbe, Reb Itche Mayer Levin when he was in the US, and the Vishnitzer Rebbes among others. You clearly do not read satmar publications and the stuff they write about the 7th Rebbe of Chabad like that Grand Rabbi Reb Joel asking R Michoel Ber Weissmandel to watch the 7th Rebbe that he should not go off the derech...
More such stories abound.
I heard the Rebbe scream lo mehem velo mehamonum ,(by the way how many times did the Rebbe need to attack these people - once is not enough. I guess you are unaware of the boycott proclaimed against the CRC and their products etc etc.... By the way are you also defending the hate that the Satmar community spewed forth and still does against the Jews of Israel ?? who was "meyhem?" was it Rabbi JB Soloveitchik?, was it the Gerer Rebbe? was it Rabbi Schneur Kotler?, was it the Vishnitzer Rebbe? No. It was the Satmarer Rebbe and his Rabbinic noch shleppers who used every opportunity to attack Medinas Israel, the Klal Israel and Lubavitch, and preached a furious form of Sinas Israel against all who did not accept the shitah hakedashoh ( a shita whose newspaper mourned the downing of Syrian migs by Zahal with Kiddush levonna eysios.
PLEASE TELL ME WHO THE REBBE MEANT BY "MEYHEM"!!!!!
Don't even begin to rewrite history as if the 7th Rebbe had any shaychus (chutz mi derech eretz) to the shitto of satmar. Punkt farkert, he was the true Ohev Israel, ohev Medinas Israel, and sanigeyron shel Israel. Take a look at the book by the other Chaim Liberman DER REBBE UN DER SATAN and see the "maasim tovim" of that Rebbe and his followers. see what the Tzaddik Rav Yosef Eliyahu Henkin had to say about him and the heilike shitto. By the way the legacy of the Satmarer Rebbe is best seen in the community he left and their daily kiddush hashem in the media .
I am fostering machlokes? Who was a baal machlokes in Hungary with his brother , with the Spinker Rebbe, With the Munkatcher with Reb Abishel of Krole, with the Tasnader Ruv with anyone who did not accept his hegemony? Who was the baal machlokes after the war with Belz, Kloizenberg, Vishnitz, the gedolim of the Aguda, with Lubavitch, and with anyone who dared resist the shittah and its creator. Lashon hora, you say? why not catch a BLIK at DER YID and DER BATT and see what true lashon horah against themselves and other Jews really is.
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I cannot say "I feel your pain" since I was not even aware of the machlokos you cite when they happened. Nevertheless, in all fairness the principals have all since moved on to Olam HaEmes. The heavy-handed anti-tziunistism of generations past is relegated to a few NK crazies who do not even have CRC/Hisachdus approval in the slightest. Likewise the Vechter/Korf matters, as painful as they are to read about, are water-under-the-bridge by now for most L and S.
And frankly, why don't we passeil the CH Beis Din for what a few baryonim did to Chana Gourarie on their watch? Didn't the Rebbe say to the effect that such people belong in B'nei B'raq? I think the "Lo mehem velo mehamonam" label would apply there as well.
as you know and it is found many times in the rebbe sichos his condeemmnation of violence in any shape or form thru all the years, but physical violence was the official method of the satmar derech to make headway it did not start in brooklyn it started in Urshive and krolle.
Schneur, when you speak with passion and truth bist a voiler yid. Thank you.
Shneur, when the Rebbe said "meyhem" he certainly did not mean R Yoilish. And in the bitterest years of the late lameds, I never heard any Lubavitcher speaking disrespectfully of R Yoilish, or blaming him directly for what was happening. Rather, the only criticism of him was that he was responsible for bringing up this generation of hooligans, and that he had lost control over them. Indeed, I seem to recall the Rebbe intimating that R Yoilish himself was afraid of these people, and could not speak out against them for fear that they would turn on him.
When he died I do not recall any rejoicing or disrespect in Lubavitch, though I do recall people speaking with derision of his nephew the Sigeter, so it was not PC that kept people from speaking ill of the Satmarer, it was genuine respect.
By the way, here's another story about the SR, one that I heard directly from the person to whom it happened.
This person is a ger, and he went in to the SR for a brocha, together with another person whose mother's name happened to be Sarah. They both wrote kvitlach, giving their names as "X ben Sarah", but the SR immediately noted that though their mothers had the same name they were not brothers. He said to my friend "your mother is something special, gor a tzadeikes". My friend was dumbstruck, he didn't know how to respond, because he knew that his mother was far far from being a tzadeikes, so what did the Rebbe mean? Eventually he got out the fact that he was a ger, and the SR said "now I understand what I saw; your mother is Sarah Imeinu, and she is takeh a tzadeikes".
I may have got the exact wording wrong, but this is the story as I recall hearing it from the ger himself. He was certain that the SR had never met him or heard of him before, and there was no way that he could have known, just from the kvitlach, that he was a ger. And indeed he didn't know; all he could see was that this "Sarah" was a great woman, but he thought she was a 20th-century tzadeikes until he found out otherwise. As I understand it, that's what ruach hakodesh is like: it's not clairvoyance, it doesn't make someone omniscient, it just lets them see more than the ordinary person can.
Go Schneur Go! Hear Hear. Finally! All you hear from the yeshivish community is about the wonderful Satmar Bikur Cholim and how his anti-Zionism was held of by the other gedolim. It's about time someone just said it straight. Every kraiz has a few hotheads. By them, however,it's the religion.
Schneur, you alluded to a very painful past that deserves an expose all of its own.Butzen butzen...From the very dawn of his Rabbonus, in his first town, his henchmen were roidef the venerable Rov until he escaped with his gatkes in middle of the night. His crime ?...He wouldnt scoot over and make way for the yungatch Rov, and his life was in jeapordy. You can trace all the redifusin, that took place over the many years to anyone who wouldnt bow to his UhberRebbenish and become his pawn and lap dog back to the very beginning. His start began with terrorizing other Rabbonim, and it never ended. Yehai Zichro Boruch !
Hear, hear, Yehupitz!
Your true colours are coming out.
So now you are comfortable with blacklisting thousands of families.Nice.I'm sure you are preparing a shabbos shuva drosho on this.
Oh, and btw, where in heaven would you know anything about Satmar at all?? You know your backround and you know zero about Satmar.The only Satmar guy you would've have known was the saintly Rabbi Taub from Balt whom everybody loved.
May I just be permitted to add that in contrast to the comment here that the Satmar anti-Zioinst rhetoric has been toned down in recent years --LAHDAM. Nothing is further from the truth. read their papers, (DER YID, BLATT and the other one) they mock the frum settlers of Yesha. They mock their beards and long peyoth.
They continue to blast rav Shtainman , they attack the religious soldiers and officers in zahal. And they continue their public demonstrations in NYC in mid town against Zioinst oppression.In this week's Neys Bericht they refer to a prominent modern orthodox day school in Brooklyn as not Yeshivath Etz Chaim but Etz hamaves). This is the way a frume Jew talks or writes ???
Because they write in Yiddish and most non-Chassidim can not read Yiddish, their message escapes the non Chassidic orthodox community in the USA.
What we need is a CAMERA group who translate the Arabic media in English to see what the Arabs are saying internally, The same with satmar , people in the 5 towns, flatbush, Teaneck, Riverdale and even Lakewood would be shocked by their leshonos and anti-Israel message.American orthodox Jews deserve to know what these ppeople believe in.
Once that was done perhaps people in Teaneck, and West Hampstead would think twice about buying their kokash cakes and their geshmake glatt kosher food stuffs...
The NK is yonek from Satamr. Who supports their plane trips, hotel stays around the globe,, web sites, publications, telephone hot lines and propoganda. These are expensive things. Schleppers don't have that sort of money. The answer is clear and the money comes from KJ and Williamsburg. Follow the money !!
Sort of off-topic but...
The Satmarer Rebbe Shlit"a (R' Aharon); VeAtah al bamoseichem sidroch (my words, not theirs -CR).
Do you think the word "hegemony" and "hegmoniah" in the first mishna in Gittin are related?
Also, without taking sides on the SR issue, Milhouse's story is susceptible to serious scepticism.
Schneur, the antisemites who have misappropriated the name NK don't need to come to Satmarers for funding. It's publicly documented that Hirsch was on Arafat's payroll; the Israelis found the records in the Muqata. I've no doubt that that funding source continues. And I happen to know that the owner of nkusa.org gets lots of donations through the web site, from antisemitic goyim all over America.
And they don't need to raise all that much money - it's not as if there are a lot of them to support. How many of them are there all together, all over the world? 40?
WADR, I beg to differ with you on the current state of affairs within Satmar at large. From the article I linked above:
"However, sources close to the younger Teitelbaum in Jerusalem accused Aaron Teitelbaum of departing from the ways of previous Satmar rebbes. Aaron Teitelbaum, these sources said, is considered more moderate in his stance vis-à-vis Zionist and modernity.
"His wife speaks Hebrew at home," said the source, who spoke fluent Hebrew. "This is considered a compromise to Zionist influences. He also meets with rabbis who do dealings with the Zionist regime, including officials in the Jerusalem Municipality."
Doesn't sound like a staunch Anti-Z to me. Indeed, R' Aharon sounds downright pragmatic in this clip.
Yes, Der Yid et al can be very vocal and likely speak for those who still hold from der alte heim. However, they are not the only voice in a community of 1/4 million. You want to criticise the neanderthals who hold that way then do so. Heck, most of us here criticise the yellow-flag wavers who, despite their volume, represent but a fraction of Lubavitch.
Rabbi Taub was a Zisse Holy Yid whose tone, style and teachings bore no resemblance whatsoever to anything coming out of any Satmar organ.
Farshteits'ech that when Schneur speaks of "Satmar", or when I agree with him, that it is not a reference to every Yochid. I understood Schneur as refering to the officialdom of Satmar the movement. People who praise Satmar are also refering to that. So I don't thing the question of how many Satmar families I know is relevant. This isn't about yechidim. L'havdil, the same way that when people attack a political party, they are not attacking everyone who votes for that party etc. etc.
I won't add anything else to this thread, because I don't have the stomach for a flamewar.
Kesiva V'Chasima Tova
The Meshichisten are a small percentage of Lubavitch?News to me..
Satmar, with all due respect to you Shneour, manages fine without anybody from Teaneck buying 'their' kokosh cake.
They are a self funding group that don't fundraise outside their community, who's members are also big supporters of other communities and yeshivas.Even certain Lubavitcher shluchim have been recipients of their largesse such as in China and Thailand.
I say this despite being a member of Vien, but it is the truth
In what amount did the Arafat regime fund Moshe Hirsch ? What I recall is a very low figure probably enough to cover air fare for these guys to Teheran.
In addition what makes you think Moshe Hirsch and his son passed these funds on to anyone else except for themselves, be they NK or Poali Zion. Thats not the mode in which the heimishe world works in in regards monetary contributions.
I am hardly the insider in these circles, but in this case I know of what I speak of.
The only reason that the CRC and such groups publically disassociate themselves from the radical elements of the NK is they are scared of a "cold pogrom" a boycott against their food stuffs in places like the Upper west Side, Teaneck, Englewood,Paramus, Fairlawn, West Orange, Riverdale, Staten Island, the Syrian community,Elizabeth,Stamford,W. Hampstead, Great Neck, the 5 towns and other points left of the DER YID. And if you start counting such a boycott could hurt them.
And please stop comparing these Self haters to radical Messianic elements in Chabad who in reality when we tone down the rhetoric (mine included)are hardly hurting anyone.
One last comment. In the special Yarchon issued by Belz in memory of the 50th Yorzayt of the Belzer rav, (the cover was featured on this site several weeks ago) there appears a special section of zichrones etc written by the Bilgroyer rav about his brother. I did not have the time to go through it carefully, but its of graet interest both in terms of editorial content and its unusual photographs of the rav and his family. One remark caught my eye when asked in 1949 about the creation of Israel, the belzer rav said that "zum hant " (immediately- right now) this is a great yeshua, its a makom miklat for the survivors. This is a free account of what he said.
Tell me rabosai , what makes the Satmarer rebbe more "odif" in this case, was the Belzer ruv one iota less of a zaddik than the Satmarer, why does everyone need to accept the Satmar position on Israel. Maybe the Belzer , Lubavitcher, Gerer, Vishnitzer, Klizenberger, Boyaner,position was correct. Just maybe ??
The point you made about Rabbi Taub is just as true about R'Yoel Teitelbaum.Anybody who ever met with him was overwhelmed by his tzidkus, brilliance and wit.The fact that his kehilla grew to the size it is is because of him.
The reason I pointed out your lack of familiarity with Satmar was to show that you have been fed all kinds of stories from groups with an axe to grind.I know for example that one of Satmars biggest foes was angered that many of his best and brightest left to Satmar, captivated by R'Yoels easy going nature on top of all his other maalos.
Judging Lubavitch based on an article in Yated Neeman would not be wise or objective, judging Satmar based on sour grapes fed to you by Lubavitch and other enemies is not smart or EMMES either.
It's unfortunate that Satmars badmouthers are forced to change their tune when they are in a time of need.
I'm not Satmar nor do I agree neccesarily with their ideology, but the truth needs to be told
WHAT IS THE MEKOR FOR THE DISTINCT TALLESIM WORN IN CHABAD? I'M REFERRING TO THE STRIPE PATTERN. THANKS.
I'm not sure that they're so distinct. Many of the Israeli Taleisim, worn by Perushim mostly, are very similar. They may be distinct relative to the Hungarian style Taleisim, but so are others, if you look closely.
The Mekor I think is the Rebbe Rashab, who had a directive issued to a Tallismaker in Russia as to how to make the stripes. Even that has 2 versions, as there are 2 versions of the Chabad Tallis today.
What's I find really neat is that no matter where anyone is "holding" in Lubavitch- whether they're recent BT, more modern, mainstream or some Rebbishe progeny in Williamsburg with candid Chabad affiliation- they always wear the distinct Chabad Talis.
Schneur, Schneur - it's chodesh Ellul. Host nit meyreh miyeym hadin??
Attacking and badmouthing one of the largest communities of frum Jews - together with their rebbe an ish tzadiik vakadosh is no way a hachana for Rosh hashana.
Even if what you write is true, you are still only talikng of a tiny percentage of people in that community. The vast majority are good decent hardworking Jews, bringing up their families bederech hatorah vehachasidus, giving tzedaka more than they can afford and doing maasei chesed on an unprecedented scale.
Sitting there in your ivory tower surrounded by 'studentn' and religious zionists and spending your days trawling the chassidish press - which in fact much of is 100% true, - trying to nitpick and seek terrible aveiros - keeps you away from the real Jewish world
where we meet and deal with Satmars on a daily basis and find them to be just like all other Jews - some good and some better..
But your chutzpah in besmirching and attacking one of the gedolei hador - and then criticising his chassidim for doing EXACTLY that what you do - here and elsewhere on a regular basis - shows that you simply are a hater of frum Jews who don't accept your strong pro-medina views.
But I must say - hypocrisy becomes you.
In matter of fact, in the 50 year Yortzeit pamphlet they also write that these same words were said to the Rashag when he was visiting the Belzer Rov ZYA, he asked in the name of the FR what is the Belzer Rovs view on the newly created Medina, and the answer went something along the lines as you write, quite positive,
In the Bilgerier rov Reshimoth he quotes his brother the Belzer Rov as saying I can not be on the same page with Kanoim
One of the things that amazes you with Satmar is, that they know every derech better then the closest family and talmidim
the examples are many, but I write just a few,
Belz, the SR claimed to be the real chosid of Reb YD the 3rd Rebbe vs his sons.
Sanz, the SR knew the Sanzer derech better then the Klausenburger a straight grandson and was breathing Sanz 24/7
Chasam Sofer, the SR knew the Derech chasam sofer better then the Preshburger rov R'akiva Sofer and the Erlauer Rov and Reb Yosef Naftli Shtern
I don't think the stripe pattern on a talles is important; a manufacturer asked for instructions so he got some, but it's pretty much random.
What makes a Lubavitcher talles distinctive is the lack of an atoroh, the small hole on the side of each corner, and the chulyos of the tzitzis. When the Alter Rebbe was arrested the chsidim sold their silver atoros to pay for the expenses of getting him out of prison, and since then they have not been restored. And the little hole is the Alter Rebbe's innovation, in the siddur, in order to keep the tzitzis from slipping off the corner. And the pattern of chulyos in sets of three is the Alter Rebbe's interpretation of the ge'onim.
still, no Lubavitcher Chossid worth his salt would buy a "regular" Tallis and remove the Atoroh, nor would he buy the Meyuchad Chabad, right?
Lubavitch is only penimyus and is not interested in chitzonius like talis style, hat style, etc. Isn't that the reason they don't wear chasidishe clothes?
Hat style is chitzonius, but the Talis shel Mitzva should be consistent with Halacha, Kabalah and Minhag Beis Horav is penimous shbepnimous.
Unfortunately as a Oilimisher you are not capable to differentiate.
so anonymous, tell me what's so special about the stripes on the Lubavitcher talis?
BTW, I'm not an oilmesher, I'm an ailemesher, that's why I can differentiate where there is a difference.
The laughable thing about all this is that you have to have substance before you wax on about pnimius. And that is something, of all chassidim, Lubavitch does NOT have.
Whichever anonymous you are, have you heard of making your point by proving it? Saying so isn't enough, your words are not MiSinai.
. . .okkaaaay. The same goes for the "Rebbe."
You ever met a chasidisher yid as Yosef Itche Ofen? Zalman Gopin? or Pinye Korf ?
You are a fool and go hang out with your brotherhood.
I am in a Bizarro world here, no?
When you say that "Reb Yoilish"'s position versus "the Belzer , Lubavitcher, Gerer, Vishnitzer, Klizenberger, Boyaner,position was maybe correct",you should really be a bit more specific whom it is that you're talking about. Is the "Lubavitcher Position" defined by Reb Mendele, Reb Yitzek or Reb Berish ? Because if you look at the latter's (and his son's) view on most issues at hand, maybe, just maybe, he would be just as vigilant, if not more so, about Zionism, Ivrit and other stuff that got watered down as years went by - and dollars started trickling in. Same goes for Ahavas Yisroel, Reb Sucher of Belz or even Reb Zalmen Halberstam's grandfathers - all Halberstams without exception, prior to him, had a way stiffer stand on Zionism and Ivrit and whatnot then Satmar ever did.
If you think that "Hungarians" invented and perpetuated machloikes , you're severely deluded. Starting with Reb Zalmen Borochovich's rogue strain of teachings that ended up being vigorously opposed by the very people who were the closest to him (think R' Avrohom haMalach, R' Avrohom Katz and R' Mendel Horodenker), both Russian and Polish chassidim, going back hundreds of years, set the golden standard of machloikes and krigerei. The reason behind perpetual splintering amongst Maggid's chassidim since Maggid's passing was nothing other then very active unwillingness on part of Reb Zalman's people to accept otherwise universally accepted, by the rest of Talmidei haMaggid, leader, whose name we should leave out of this.
From that point on, both Russian and Polish chassidus thrived on persistent warfare, disagreements and quarrels. There is nothing wrong with it - in fact, it's the sign of thing being done right, and so says Rashi on ויחן שם ישראל . But don't try to paint those idyllic unified derheibene Teishvei Nevel who never hurt a fly being corrupted by the evil Magyarosatmarsnagkhazaren who aren't even jewish and whose only concern in life is over how much Lieber's potato chips will Five Towns not consume this year because of the boycott.
By the way, who is that individual whom Reb Mendel calls a mechutzaf in Hisvaduyeis 5745 volume 4 pages 2227-2228 ?
And by another way, do you know that some 95% of people under age 30 outside of Chabad - including Satmar and rest of "Poland" - have no idea that there ever was such a thing as boycott of their products; while most young Gezhe Anash (sometimes of Moroccan distillate) are still very vigilant about ?
I don't know who the mechutzaf was, but note that the Rebbe refers to the mechutzaf's rebbe, (who was quite obviously the SR), as "ilon godol".
BY the way I never attacked the amche of satmar . I know them well and many like in all groups are fine people. Read my remarks carefully I am criticizing the shitah and nothing else.
Where do I attack the men and women of satmar ? But yes the ideologues and those who support the NK and the anti-JEWISH policies are attacked on that basis. Should I forget about their supporting the enemy , because they run a fine Bikkur Chlim program ????
Yes I am proud to support the Medina , I do not apologize for that in the least.
Friday, August 17, 2007 2:49:00 PM
>>>Belz, the SR claimed to be the real chosid of Reb YD the 3rd Rebbe vs his sons.
The entire world knew that the biggest Kanoi Was RYD of Belz. His son RA ZTZVK"L changed.
>>>Sanz, the SR knew the Sanzer derech better then the Klausenburger a straight grandson and was breathing Sanz 24/7
The only thing the KR took from Sanz was the name
>>>Chasam Sofer, the SR knew the Derech chasam sofer better then the Preshburger rov R'akiva Sofer and the Erlauer Rov and Reb Yosef Naftli Shtern
The Talmidei HaChasam Soifer made the Teilung in Hungary. The SR kept the teilung wherever he went
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