Thursday, August 23, 2007

Again, Lubavitch is to blame

(Rabbi with Torah - by Marc Chagall)

Umyvalnikoff Natschalnik commenting on Circus Tent" "Machlokes L'sheym Shomayim?!":
( I see this guy has "name" issues, he needs to use "terms of endearment" for everybody. Maybe he wasn't loved as a child.....)

When you say that Reb Yoilish's position versus "the Belzer , Lubavitcher, Gerer, Vishnitzer, Kloizenberger, or Boyaner position was maybe correct", you should really be a bit more specific. Whom it is that you're talking about? Is the "Lubavitcher Position" defined by Reb Mendele, Reb Yitzek or Reb Berish ? Because if you look at the latter's (and his son's) view on most issues at hand, maybe, just maybe, he would be just as vigilant, if not more so, about Zionism, Ivrit and other stuff that got watered down as years went by - and dollars started trickling in. Same goes for Ahavas Yisroel; Reb Sucher of Belz or even Reb Zalmen Halberstam's (Klausenberger Rov - HT) grandfathers - all Halberstams without exception, prior to him, had a way stiffer stand on Zionism, Ivrit and whatnot then Satmar ever did.

If you think that "Hungarians" invented and perpetuated machloikes you're severely deluded. Starting with Reb Zalmen Borochovich's "rogue strain of teachings" that ended up being vigorously opposed by the very people who were the closest to him (think R' Avrohom haMalach, R' Avrohom Katz (Kalisker - HT) and R' Mendel Horodenker (sic)), both Russian and Polish chassidim, going back hundreds of years, set the golden standard of machloikes and krigerei. The reason behind perpetual splintering amongst the Maggid's chassidim since the Maggid's passing was nothing other then a very active unwillingness on the part of Reb Zalman's people to accept the otherwise universally accepted - by the rest of the Talmidei haMaggid - leader whose name we should leave out of this. (whom does he mean? - HT)

From that point on, both Russian and Polish chassidus thrived on persistent warfare, disagreements and quarrels. There is nothing wrong with it - in fact, it's the sign of thing being done right, and so says Rashi on ויחן שם ישראל . But don't try to paint those idyllic unified derheibene Teishvei Nevel who never hurt a fly being corrupted by the evil Magyarosatmarsnagkhazaren who aren't even Jewish, (why are Hungarians so despised by all? - HT) and whose only concern in life is over how much Lieber's potato chips will Five Towns not consume this year because of the boycott.

By the way, who is that individual whom Reb Mendel (The Rebbe - HT) calls a mechutzaf in Hisvaduyeis 5745 volume 4 pages 2227-2228 ? And by another way, do you know that some 95% of people under age 30 outside of Chabad - including Satmar and rest of "Poland" - have no idea that there ever was such a thing as boycott of their products; while most young Gezhe Anash (sometimes of Moroccan distillate) are still very vigilant about it?


Anonymous said...

(why are Hungarians so despised by all? - HT)
This is an important and interesting question. To start answering it you need to look into what's meant by "Hungarians" and what's mean by "all".

Usually, when people speak of those despicable Hungarians, they refer to Satmar first and foremost and everything else is tofol. But a quick look at the phone books, or at the "nemen fun prenumeranten" on seforim printed in Osterreich/Hungary territories, shows same names and same families whether you talk Satmar, Cluj (Klausenburg), Munkacz, Belz or Spinke. Today, Skver and even Lakewood are all full of people that have plenty of hungarian blood in their veins; you'll be pressed very hard to find a real Litvak in BMG or a real Ukrainian in Skver (I don't know of anyone, sadly). And yet, somehow I've never heard or seen anyone despising Clujers, Belzers, Munkaczers or snags under the pretext of hungarophobia. So would you agree that your question can be reformulated as "Why does everyone despise [dislike, hate, envy, whatnot] Satmar and what's related to it ?" ?

Now the "all" part. The foremost and staunchest detractors of all things hungarian are, of course, hungarians themselves. "Hate" is not a right word; but Hungarians do look down upon themselves more then any other group out there. Autoflagellation is taken by them to new levels. Unlike any other group out there, very little pride is associated with saying "I come from Hungary". This is not a new phenomenon; it's been this way for ages.

Consider also the factor that of all frum Jews who entered the US since the 30's, Hungarians and Romanians were probably the largest ethnic group for many reasons.

So there you go, you got a self hating majority; couple that with a burning animosity towards Satmar just for being that and you get closer to an answer for your question.

Anonymous said...

Those who still “Beshita” don’t eat Satmar Shechita are narrow minded fools.

Hershel, why not?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

why not what?

Camp Runamok said...

"Those who still “Beshita” don’t eat Satmar Shechita are narrow minded fools."

And, yet, certain hanhalah at not a few yeshivos are set on infecting today's youth with the same dogmatic view. My neighbors' kid just came back for bein hazmanim from XXXXX and reported hearing the whole parshah from his mashpiyim. To his credit, he takes it with some healthy skepticism but others, I am sure, do not.

Anonymous said...

What the commentator forgets is that the discussion is not about machlokes between groups of Chassidim, but about a large Chassidic group adopting a militnat policy against the largest yishuv of Jews in the world and trying to terrorize other orthodox Jews to join their campaign against Israel.

Anonymous said...

So, putting the Zionism issue aside, even Mr. Shneur concedes that when he talks about "Hungarians", he really refers to Satmar (as, obviously, there are many other groups of Hungarian descent that do not share Satmar's stand on Zionism; and, less obviously but still, there are plenty of people of non-Hungarian descent that do share Satmar's attitude towards medina). Which is what

Chabad Historian said...

I never heard that R' Avrohom der Malach was opposed to Chabad Chassidus, and R' Mendel was definitely not, because he wrote a letter support/ing the Alter Rebbes derech.