Wednesday, July 22, 2015

I learned today that R' Ysoscher Katz is also an opportunist

Otherwise it would make no sense for him to write an article about a girl he knew nothing about a day after her passing and blame an ENTIRE community for it. מילא all her supposed friends looking for revenge - we can expect that. But Rabbi Katz?! Could he not wait a week until the shiva was over? Could he not respect the obviously grieving parents who lost what seems to be one of two children? Parents who went out of their way to placate her current friends and thank them publicly for coming! Does this sound like parents who "shunned" her? And to compare his situation to hers is just absurd. The only reason I can think of for him to write such a piece is his need to either get his name in on the conversation, or worse, just stick it to the frummies who "shunned" him. Kind of like Eli Fink with a beard. I see now that he did not write the screaming, incriminating. The Forward people do that, as do all newspapers - write the title, that is. But wow, they sure are objective....

I am disappointed.


dlz said...

I agree completely.

Pinchos Woolstone said...

Ysoschar is a young man with the angst associated.
The has some great ideas.
OO is an attempt to find meaning, don't judge them badly, we are in the Bolus.

Gas Ruach said...

are all the 350 million Americans complicit in all suicides in the USA?
the chasidic community is the only group with some support systems, she left it, declaring she is on her own
whom is he blaming now

Anonymous said...

Ysoscher, with his funny spelling and special yichus, is more accomplished than Fink, who is essentially a between jobs Ner Israel guy looking for a platform

דוי הסר said...

וענו ואמרו ידינו לא שפכו את הדם הזה ועינינו לא ראו .   מלבי"ם: ידינו לא שפכו, פי' שלא היינו גרמא לרצח הזה. לא ע"י שלא נתנו מזון להרוצח, ועי"כ היה מוכרח להרוג את הנרצח לעשוק את לחמו, למלא נפשו כי ירעב . ולא ע"י שלא נתנו לויה להנרצח, שלא ילך יחידי במקום סכנה !!!. וכ"ז יאמרו זקני העיר, ואז יאמרו הכהנים כפר לעמך ישראל. ע"כ

כנראה צריך לאומרו תיכף ומיד כשמצאו, וזו לא שייך לחסידיק קאמיוניטי לחוד.

yehupitz said...

Please don't call Fink a "Ner Israel Guy".
While true in the sense that this is the Yeshiva he attended, almost his entire hashkafic system and corpus of statements for the past many years has been a source of embarrassment to his Alma mater, its rebbeim, Roshei Yeshiva, and alumni.

Jász-Nagikun-Szolnok said...

Haven't seen in a long time.
I actually like Fink,don't know him personally, just read his blog.
Seems you bear a grudge?
9 days, ahavas chinom?

Jász-Nagikun-Szolnok said...

Btw, what special yichus has Katz got?
His father is not a rabbi iirc.He is a cohen, though, if that's what you mean?

Jász-Nagikun-Szolnok said...

"Ysoschar is a young man with the angst associated."
Young is relative, he is about 47 years old.He grew up in Satmar.In Williamsburg and he must've been married and maybe a father by 20, his younger son is 25.I don't think you can call him a young man with angst.He has had more life experiences and experienced many more cultures than people who have lived a full lifetime
Jus' sayin'

Jász-Nagikun-Szolnok said...

The bottom line is that something must be done to save young (and old)from taking such desperate steps.
The haters like Scotty from failed are having a field day blaming the frummeh.They are not looking to help, they are looking to accuse.But, we in the frum, heimishe community need to take a better look at ourselves.Chabad, have a decent approach to youth leaving or experimenting and are more accepting, though, you may recall a young man from a pretty prominent chabad family did the dastardly deed not long ago(he was in a lot of trouble and pressure, probably some mental health issues, so who knows..)
It's a real tragedy a wake up call
Could something have been done?
I have personally learned not to judge.What do we know about the emotional stress, mental demons and many other things that can cause people to to this.Not to long ago a frum man from overseas, took his own life, he was very normal, well liked good sense of humour and doing quite well in business.His friends and acquaintances were in terrible shock.Turned orom undiagnosed depression prior to that and had been recently taking anti depressants.One of the side affects in the first few weeks of anti depressants are suicidal thoughts.Who knut that he was despondent about an upcoming child's choice of spouse, probably suffered fows if that was not what caused it

mehadrin-klein-jj farband said...


this name sounds like a classy swiss made ice cream, perhaps sold by Ikea, doesn't sound kosher although .

Pinchos Woolstone said...

OK middle delayed angst

דברי קהלת said...

ושבתי אני, ואראה את-כל-העשוקים, אשר נעשים, תחת השמש; והנה דמעת העשוקים, ואין להם מנחם

U-man said...

In 2013, 41,149 suicides were reported. the no. #1 reason was depression, perhaps the girl wasn't treated and that's the real cause she left the community in the first place.

תהלים קלט:  וראה אם דרך עצב בי ונחני בדרך עולם. רש"י: אם דרך מעצבה וקלקול בי, רד"ק ונחני בדרך עולם, זו מיתה. -ח"ו
perhaps it's time to organize pilgrims to uman for women .

hertz frankel said...

Is the Forward article implying that there is No suicide occurrences in the OO and MO communities ? or that there is a higher percentage in the FFB communities ? or just another shanden freud Forward article based on jealously and self hate.

JS said...

I am no fan of this Rabbi Katz, but you're being too harsh on him in this instance.

He says we are "somewhat complicit", by not providing OTDniks with "acceptance", and by not providing their families with the suport they need to help them cope with their child. He doesn't use the word "shun" at all.

You're right the timing and venue of this article (the Forward is not the place to go if you sincerely want to influence the hymishe velt) smacks of being self serving, and we wouldn't agree with his view that an avaryan is just someone who is on a beautiful voyage of self discovery, but in essence his ideas are good ones.

Berel said...

While I knew that if a e.g. Yeshiva Bochur, Kollel Wife etc would ch'v commit suicide it would spark blood libels, I never dreamed that someone anti frum doing so could also spark them.

אבא חייא said...

אמר ר' חייא בר אבא אמר רבי יוחנן: אחד מן האחין שמת ידאגו כל האחין כולן. אחד מבני חבורה שמת - תדאג כל החבורה כולה; אמרי לה דמת גדול, ואמרי לה דמת קטן. -שבת ק"ה

בן סורר said...

"I never dreamed that someone anti frum doing so could also spark them."

The moral, in contrast to immoral people OTD's and goyim who sat with her in the bar, and it didn't spark them! (according the news article) they had to finnish their drinks i guess, oh! and they can talk about it by their next appointment at the psycos office, so what's the rush.

raw diamond said...

First, they say they want you
How they really need you
Suddenly you find you're out there...Walking in the storm. ..When they know they have you
Then they really have you.

That's the truth about these forvertz people.

Anonymous said...

If you see some of his comments and those he supports, you quickly come to the conclusion that he's a person who is an enemy of normative Orthodoxy and will do anything to undermine it. This is just one more example. Nothing surprising here Hirshel.
Ms Rock Heartfield

ksil said...

berel, there have been frum people commit suicide, and it hasn't sparked anything. in fact, mostly it is kept quiet and the cause of death is changed, made up. no blood libels. no blame. no discussion. no nothing.

rebcharles said...

First of all, I believe that ידינו לא שפכו את הדם הזה ועינינו לא ראו, that it goes on the murderer, I believe the original source is a Yerushalmi, but sadly , I dont know exactly where it is.

Any frum person who gloats ,is triumphant, or insenestive on any level, clearly fails to make the connection between the corruption and emptiness of the frum world today, and its ramifications to those who choose to leave.

hertz frankel said...

"between the corruption and emptiness of the frum world today,"

no kidding, compared to whom to the none frum? like the mikvah rabbi and the sauna rabbi ? etc. hint: don't believe what you read on the hate blogs, the frum mosdos in america are doing just fine, certainly comparing to before WWII

rebcharles said...

R Herz'l

You ask, "compared to whom "

Compared to what it could be, and should be, and what it advertises itself to be.

Sex scandal after financial scandal, after Rabonnus scandal, after Bais Din scandal, Machlokes clearly without a shemetz of LeShem Shomayim. Israel? , America ? take your pick

Its almost to the point where anyone who stays, and doesnt leave, they have be the ones questioned as delusional.

If the Samech Mem's strategy is to disillusion the masses by internal corruption, he or she is exceptionally kleeg and successful. Every Bar Da'as sees it for what its, No one on the inside or outside takes it seriously.

hertz frankel said...

you're lying thru your teeth, picking up your smut from the blogs and regargling them as facts, whatever goes on, allways went on, that's why we the 4 volumes of shulchun aruch, and responses +++ read them its full of this stuff, they were written for "cheridim" not for the OO and MO's who threw out the "torah" with the bad baby watet.

פנחס אלעזר said...

נדרים דף כב:  
אמר רב אדא ברבי חנינא: אלמלא (לא) חטאו ישראל - לא ניתן להם אלא חמשה חומשי תורה וספר יהושע בלבד.. מאי טעמא "כי ברוב חכמה רוב כעס" --- הר"ן כותב: שעיקרן של שאר נביאים היה אלא להוכיח את ישראל על עברות בידם, אילולא חטאו לא יהיו צריכים לתוכחה.

קהלת: ברב חכמה רב כעס ויוסיף דעת יוסיף מכאוב. משום זה יש לנו ישיבות, תלמידים דרשנים ורובי רבבות ספרי תלמוד נתרבים. ., בקיצור אין חדש תחת השמש, אל תאמר הימים הראשונים הי' טובים, הריבה בכמות נראה באיכות! וד"ל, וזה בטבע כן ואכמ"ל.

Ish HaHalacha said...

Reb charles
"Sex scandal after financial scandal, after Rabonnus scandal, after Bais Din scandal, Machlokes clearly without a shemetz of LeShem Shomayim. Israel? , America ? take your pick

Its almost to the point where anyone who stays, and doesn't leave, they have be the ones questioned as delusional."
Was YU not accused of a molestation scandal on a few faculty members,
The MO world was busy hocking on the Agudah and Novominsker Rebbe saying to go first to a Ruv,before involving the courts.
Then we learbed that the Centrist Rabbi President Laam was quiet and hushed down the accusers decades ago,
Rabbi Laam can thank god he is senile now so he is not pulled in to court to testify
Its about time tha the MO movement should shut up on this issues.

Ish HaHalacha said...

Reb charles
"If the Samech Mem's strategy is to disillusion the masses by internal corruption, he or she is exceptionally kleeg and successful. Every Bar Da'as sees it for what its, No one on the inside or outside takes it seriously."
what are talking about???????

hertz frankel said...

"Compared to what it could be, and should be, and what it advertises itself to be."

and that's what it is. No such a thing as what it could be should be, it is what it is, you may be critical if you compare it to others in the same realm, other wise you just blowing hot air . nonsense .

קארעלסבערגער מגיד said...

ילקוט שמעוני: למה ה' יחרה אפך בעמך אשר הוצאת מארץ מצרים, מהיכן הוצאתם? מארץ מצרים, ממקום עובדי אלילים, אלו ממקום אחר הוצאתם היית כועס עליהם. משל לאחד שהיה לו בן פתח לו חנות של בשם בתוך שוק של זונות. החנות משלו והשוק משלו, יצא הנער לתרבות רעה. נכנס אביו להוציאו מבין הזונות, כפתו ובקש להרגו. בא אוהבו א"ל: למה אתה הורגו ולא אתה פתחת חנות של בשמים בתוך שוק של זונות ומשם יצא לתרבות רעה?! ע"כ

אנו בגלות אמעריקא משוקעים בנ' שערי טומאה זה בכה וזה בכה ואחרון הכביד הרשת התחתון שבתחתונים שעליה אתמר בגמ' שבת,  שאמרו ישראל למשה שעליהם להקריב קרבן לאחר מלחמת מדין שאמנם לא שבו בה לחטוא בבנות מדין, אך "אם מידי עבירה יצאנו מידי הרהור לא יצאנו".! ומי יוכל לומר שעלה על המוקדה ברשת זו, ולא נכוה הרהריו! העולם כולו ובתוכם מדינת ישראל כהיום הוא בנ' שערי טומאה! א"כ למה יחרה אפכם בעמיו אשר משוקעים בשקועים משונים ובעוד לא הצאתנו משם. ובלצגבב"א

Igud RaaBunim said...

It seems that the posek hadoir of YCT Reb Sucher Katz, has extra time on his hand to malign orthodoxy and its lack of support of guys and gals who claim to be independent from orthodoxy.
An English article for a former Satmar boychic does not come easy, I would suggest Reb Sucher should use his time and energy to build a helpline for all former frummies, in time of suicidal crisis they should consult a Rabbi or Mharat, maybe they can give them a hug(depends on the policy of YCT on Shomer Negiah) to show extra love.... or a tomchai shabbos style distribution, not chas veshulem primitive Gefilte fish, rather some sushi laced with hard core drugs.
Its my assumption the Rabbi will save many bodies(not souls since they are all independent)

lipa friedman said...

finally the igud makes a stand against the forward, where were you 80 years ago on your hay days! and where are you today when the pendulum swung to VIN and YWN the source of frum heresy ? do we have to wait another 80 years?

sharei chamlu said...

"I learned today that R' Ysoscher Katz is also an opportunist"

a goat head with a learning curve, roam by us when you're out to pasture we may have a program for you al taharas hakodish, atleast when they slaughter you will have a frum ראש כבש for the needy clergy in the up coming season, it will be a real tikkun while זה נהנה וזה לא חסר, רק ראש

עלי עכבר said...

מלבי"ם: ידינו לא שפכו, פי' שלא היינו גרמא לרצח הזה לא ע"י שלא נתנו מזון להרוצח ועי"כ היה מוכרח להרוג את הנרצח לעשוק את לחמו

think of these words! in teanslitiration: We didn't help this girl in her distress even while she strayed! we didn't help the murder her self so to speak, we are guilty! ! !

rivky, from midwood said...

I'm angered because a young neshma died, and you guys bickering on her expense, If a person strayed from their family values isn't it at least part their own fault, even a bien sora parents admitted some fault? by not supporting them emotionally you parents are trying to shed of your part .

even mindy, my co worker she's from williamsburg she told me the "old satmir rebbe" did not let anyone alienate such people, she rambles off a list of names for those who got "nurtured" came back and yes build beautiful families for themselves, it's a fact.

yankel said...

'Rivky' and 'Mindy', So far all we know about this suicide is that she reached out to her OTD friends for help (not her chassidishe family) and they ignored her and are now trying to blame her family for their misdeeds. This has nothing to do with chassidim and everything to do with the callous attitude the OTDs and Footsteps have towards their own. They gave up Torah and found every kind of evil instead.

rivky, from midwood said...


moses iceberg said...

lipa! where are you when we need you, moshe f. is MIA, and buric mordchi a. now purveys salami and baloney literally, meanwhile the forverts sticks its old ugly decomposed head out from the trash!

הרשעים כים נגרש כי השקט לא יוכל ויגרשו מימיו רפש וטיט! -ישעיהו