Monday, July 5, 2010

Schism [siz-uhm, skiz-uhm]

Lakewood Rosh Yeshivah Setting "Daas Toyreh"

You may have seen the blurb where Reb Malkiel Shlit"a basically condemned an Orthodox Jewish Newspaper for undermining the importance of limud HaTorah as a full time profession as well as lifestyle. In other words, they glorified one who was at odds with many of the leaders of Torah Jewry, VeChein Lo Yaasu! Who was this terrible man who needed to be condemned posthumously? Dr. Bernard Lander, the man who took thousands of potential full time Kolel Yungeleit and helped them go out and earn a living. (gasp!) We can sit here and argue that fact, or not. We all know that even the current numbers are way overboard. Most of these yungeleit would do a lot better being kovea ittim. Yeah, I know. It's mamesh apikorsus what I'm saying. Whatever. the point is that RMK doesn't really want every yungerman that gets married in America to come live in Lakewood and live out his life earning a kolel check. Not only does he not want it in Lakewood, but Monsey, Flatbush or anywhere else would not serve his purpose either. It's bad enough as it is; he has no real control over his town anymore. It's all min HaSofoh U'Lechutz, lip service B'La"z. Somehow he's gonna save Torah by speaking out here.

I get him, really I do. Reb Malkiel is carrying on the legacy of his zeide who saw himself as the messenger of Torah here in America. To his zeide any guy going to college was a travesty and the person responsible for it the devil, or whatever. I can appreciate that, despite the fact that this is not some kind of chassidishe dynasty here, and it doesn't necessarily need to be his job just because his zeide did it. But I would believe that even his zeide only wanted that the serious ones stay beim lernen forever, he had no real use for stam leidig geyers and shnooks waiting out their kest. Dr. Lander for the most part - at least recently - helped guys like myself, who had no place going to a mainstream college, earn a very respectable living. You had guys from Monroe-KJ shlep in to Flatbush after a day's work and sit there until almost 11pm, before heading back to KJ, to arrive around 1am. Many of them - despite having a 3rd grade Satmar secular education - are today respected professionals earning a good living in the world of Finance. These guys were not shayech to learning all day- especially since it's not their derech at all to live off shnorr and send your wife to work.

So we can safely and maturely agree that Dr. Lander, O"H, was no worse than the founder of Tomchei Shabbos, even if you hate what he did. After all, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. He saved Tomchei Shabbos and countless other organization an endless amount of money. Each one of them should have written an appreciation for him. Correct? Good. Now that we've established that we can sit here and wonder why the fact that the newspaper printed an appreciation of DL is worthy of a condemnation by the R"Y of BMG? This despite all the advertising and free publicity the Yeshivah gets from that paper just to promote Torah and the Lakewood lifestyle! What's that? you say that they could've made less of a big deal about him? They didn't need a multiple page insert dedicated to him? Now that's nitpicking already. I'm sure the paper was compensated for their work, as well they should be, since they have bills of their own to pay, which means that obviously we can agree that there were monetary considerations for the big tribute. But that's what makes the world go 'round. Money. Money everywhere, in the newspaper business as well as at BMG.

We should hear more about this soon, IMHO.


Anonymous said...

Tzig while lander might have helped you and others. There is no question that he defied daas torah. Though you may not consider the people he defied daas torah. Where Rav Malkiel comes from they are. And that is where he is coming from.

Anonymous said...

just say Ich bin ein Berliner no daas torah needed

Anonymous said...

Tzigaleh, Fact remains that the Steipler held that what Doktor Lander A"H was assur b'tachlis.

IZK said...

Typical, typical. Just zilzul, nothing substantive. Reb Ahron “saw himself”? you lowlife Chabazker michutzeph!

WTHRU talking about re: the guys from KY! Look at the non-Hasidic/Heimish at Touro and see if they are Bney Torah!

shimon said...

You are not exactly "unbiased", besides for always trying to pick a bone with R'Malkiel, a man you don't know and never met.
Reminds me that you have never, ever even been into the building of BMG ,yet you talk "mevinehs" about Lakewood and the Yeshivishe velt.
Listen, the drie vochen is not the time to pick fights with everyone.
Blog about non controversial subjects for once.Give us a stock tip, maybe. Some financial advice, since that's your line of work.
Why always this back and forth about Chabad vs the rest of the world?

Friendly Anonymous said...

He was speaking to a group of his talmidim. it's not like he was trying to tell YOU what to do.

Would you have a problem with bashing the Israeli Yated due to their stance vis-a-vis Lubavitch?

Anonymous said...

The Matzav article encapsulates what, for me, has been a major area of discomfort with the so-called "Torah World". Why does RMK have to go out of his way to slam an individual for doing unquestionable acts of chesed just because they are not "his" way? What, pray tell, did Dr. Lander do to cause any harm to RMK or any of his predecessors?

If RMK doesn't approve of Lander's acts then just don't say anything! And don't tell me that his words were for his talmidim only. This was posted on the web and even pischikers like me are able to read it.

Anonymous said...

A few points
Rmk is an eidel yid not a mechaa maker for attention or fun
Dbl openly defied the greats like r moshe etc

Also gedlim are pro parnasa they just wanted it the bklyn college at nite way

Anonymous said...

R Malkiels protest was not only b/c the Dr Lander insert, eventhough that was the straw that broke the camels back.
The Hamodia is a very sanitized newspaper.
Even though they call themselves the newspaper for Torah Jews, they will never write any article or opinion that might offend the Modern Orthodox world.
They also go to great lenghts to appease the liberal minded Jews.
Look back at any issue relating to Yiddishkeit, i.e - 1.) kapporos, -2.) metzitzah, 3.) - Peta & the MO world against Rubashkin , etc. etc they simply do not stand up for any issue that might make them look Frum or Torah'dig.
It is truly a shame how they did not write any purposful article in favor of Rubashkin until after the guilty verdict.
This protest against them is long overdue.

Anonymous said...

While as an agudist I should have respect for RMK and I do. But it is not a secret that even the most Charedi gedolim had a divergence of opinion regarding this issue.

Rav Ruderman of Baltimore or Reb Moshe did not hold anything wrong with a person seeking a secular education. So the central question is and should be; can a person like RMK demand of Hamodia (the name of the publication is not a secret) adherence to his particular approach to Yiddishkeit.

Hamodia is a paper that tries to serve not only the Charedi community but the wider Orthodox community.
The Satmar Rebbe had no objection, nor did a slew of major -in particular chasidishe- gedolim, for anybody to go out and seek a 'faach' (profession) and in particular to attend Touro.

In addition, noware in the publication was any particular 'derech' praised! A 'man' was praised for his chesed!

It is outrageous for anybody to expect a publication such as Hamodia to be forced to accept a particular way as the 'only' legitimate charedi way.

All the RMK could have done is to instruct his talmidim or followers that according to his view the entire enterprise of Dr. Lander was not kosher and to set aside this supplement as not 'nogeah' to lomdei Torah in Lakewood and sholem al yisroel.

It is maddening, yes maddening, that at time when each and every week there are 2 yiddish publications coming out every week filled with loshon harah, nivul pe, bizayon talmidei chachomim,machalokes, abject litzanus on Rav Elyashuv Rav Steinman etc. and malshinus on 'am hayoshev be'tziyon, and never one word from RMK.

But a post mortem praise on a 'man' who is responsible for the parnose of 10s of 1000s of Yidden is so terrible, that it must require a PUBLIC rebuke?

RMK knows that in Lakewood every week on Shabbos the Satmar shul davens shacharis after zman tefilah, the post zman tefilah is posted on the wall of a shul in HIS town. But he respects that each and every kehilah has their right to their own ways.

So why can't he recognize that Hamodia's constituency is wider then his own, and that many legit Charedi lechol dovor gedolim, have a different approach to secular education?

Even by his own standards; is this the only bezoyan ha'torah going on at this moment in our community?

Could it be that Hamodia -the only paper that employs- at great cost mashgichim to check -word by word- for the slightest loshon horah, for the slightest machalokes or nivul peh, become an easy target when they seem not conform lock and step with a particular Torah view? It sure seems so.

One more major point, why does/did RMK ignore the fact that 1000s of women who end up supporting their kolle spouses, who sometimes end up as speech therapists in Lakewood institutions, got their education at Touro?

If secular education is so trief why does the Agudah operate similar programs for men and women? Would he have criticized Hamodia for publishing extensive praise of that Agudah program?

Yosef 718

Anonymous said...

Friendly anon,
"He was speaking to a group of his talmidim"
are you sure that malkiel kotler has talmidim?

Friendly Anonymous said...


Was he critizing Touro College, or merely the fact that Dr. Lander didn't obey "The Gedolim"?

i.e. is the short-sightedness of those Gedolim a valid reason after the fact not to have listened to them at the time?

Friendly Anonymous said...

Anon 4:15,

I would assume that anyone who comes to his weekly shiur can be considered a talmid to some degree.

Anonymous said...

Yosef 718

What do you mean Hamodia is the "only" paper to employ mashgichim etc.
You know it is NOT true.

What is true, is what you write that the Hamodia serves not only the Chareidi community, but a wider orthodox community.
But, then do not advertise yourself as the paper for Torah Jews, call yourself the paper for Orthodox Jews.
As an Agudist, you must remeber the words of one of the great leaders of the Agudah, Rav Mordechai Gifter, a"h. "We are not Orthodox Jews, We are Torah Jews".
As an Agudist you probably remeber the old days, when the Agudah represented Torah Jews and the views of Torah leaders.

Anonymous said...

"no daas torah needed"
We have a Rambam and Shulchan Oruch boruch hashem and we don't need this neo daas torah movements, it is like the reform movement that claim that times have changed and we have to adjust, the same is with "Daas Torah" times have changed and the shulchan orech is not good enough and some new laws are needed.

Anonymous said...

they are by the shiur for the paycheck.. give me a break.. cut the ...

Anonymous said...

except for Yated (I don't know what they do) I KNOW that no paper employs mashgichim and Hamodia does (for every ad including classifieds, for every last period!) sometimes in a fanatical way. I take back nothing.

But you should be ashamed of yourself. Are you saying that "Torah" belongs exclusively to Lakewood??!!


From between the lines of your criticism it seems so.

Torah means to me and to Hamodia (I guess): Ner Yisroel, Satmar, Yong Israel, Chabad. and everything in between.

By Katowic's original definition of "shomrei Torah" yes anybody who subscribes to the Shulchan Aruch is a Torah Jew! I remember Rav Gifter's thundering speeches at conventions. But I also remember Rabbi Schab's deroshos was he against secular education? was Rav Ruderman against it?

Is Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky against it? Isn't he a "Torah Jew" As far as I know he is a member of the Mo'etzes, How arrogant of you!

I never went to college neither do my children and for myself I more or less subscribe to RMK view of education. But I don't expect Hamodia to adhere to my particular derech!

The Alte Viznitzer Rebbe (Reb Srulche)once said.
פאר יעדען רבי ווייזט מען פון הימעל אז זיין דרך איז דער אמת'ער ריכטיגער וועג, אבער א קלוגער רבי פארשטייט אז פאר'ן אנדערן רבי'ן ווייזט מען דאס זעלבע

"Every Rebbe is shown from heaven that his derech is the right one! A smart Rebbe understands that another Rebbe gets the same message for his derech!"

Lander didn't obey which gedolim?
You mean to say like Reb Aron Kotler, who didn't obey Gedolim who held that elections is in Israel are assur? or the fact that he was maspid Rav Herzog?
אלא מאי
you will claim he had his gedolim and he himself was a gadol (type it up and I will sign it)And he is entitled to have his opinion and if Satmar Rebbe scolded Reb Aron to his face, that supporting Chinuch Atzmo'i is worse than avoda zara, so be it! Reb Aron held differently? fine!
So your comment and the last commentator, have one thing in common with RMK. Gedolim are only what 'we' consider gedolim and Torah is only what we consider Torah.

Wow! I'm cowering under my kaapel.

Anonymous said...

Yosef 718
I dont know about Rabbi Ruderman shita and I dont really care, but I remember Reb Moshe writing a few long teshuvahs in a kuntres against Touro college. If I remember correct Rabbi Director was leading a battle against Touro, can someone please find that Kuntres.
You are correct that Hamodia is not obliged to the whims of RMK,but in our era when the Daas torah suppose to serve as the final word, and the aguda is propagating the daas torah dogma, then the question arises, who is the Agudahs/Hamodaia Daas torah? personally I believe that Zwiebel (Onion)is a good Askan, but you have to follow your doctrine right or wrong(Kechoil Asher Yoricho)? Unless Ruthie the great, is consulting her holy cousin of eretz hakodesh,

Anonymous said...

RE, the Hamodia Masgichim censor, is the words Breast cancer /Ovarian cancer passable by the stringent mashgichim? or they are all in the Catskills for July and August, please notify me since I see that you have some input in the Hamodia, I will try to abstain from buying your paper till the full mashgichim staff returns

Anonymous said...

Yes I have my inside sources at Hamodia.

FYI. "Breast cancer" was asked by Hamodia to untold gedolim, the last one being Reb Aron the Satmar Rebbe who told a Hamodia delegation; that his sister died from breast cancer and of course Hamodia should clearly write the word.

עפר אני תחת רגלי ר' משה זצ"ל

But I do carry in the BP and Willie eruv. RAK and RMF held that I am a mechalel shabbes. Wow!

The point is, that Hamodia can do a write up on Reb Chazkel Roth or Reb Fishele (and Hamodia has featured both) even though they are matir the eruv something that so called "Daas Torah" says is chilul shabbes!

Daas Torah is a term that does not appear in the entire Jewish history till the last century. It is a term that the Chasam Sofer, Magen Avraham or Baal HaTanya did not use (in the sense that it is being used today) and would not recognize it. I myself never clearly understood what it is and what are the parameters to achieve that elusive quality.

I know that Rav Shach זצוקלה"ה
held that the Lev Simcha had no DT, because he was a businessman. By that standard, the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch, the Bais Efrayim and Rashi are disqualified too, (they were wine dealers)

As far as I am concerned DT is an insider code that only litvishe people know what it is. I don't!

I know one thing, if the Skevere Rebbe or Reb Motele Viznitzer let individuals who ask them to take Touro courses, it means that a Toreh'dige person can go there and give a Yasher Koach to the person who provided for it!

I am not responding to the rest of you sarcasm; the last tool of a fool.
Yosef 718

Anonymous said...

Is the Hamodia and the current leadership of the Agudah one and the same.
From the words of the Agudist, [Yosef 718] it seems that this is actually the case.
I did hear that Mrs Zwiebel, wife of Rabbi Zwiebel of the Agudah works in the Hamodia front office. Perhaps, we can thus assume that Rabbi Zwiebel, is the Daas Torah of the Hamodia.

Anonymous said...

Yosef 718
"Kitzur Shulchan Aruch"
wasnt he a dayan in Ungvar?

Anonymous said...

Reb Yosef
"I am not responding to the rest of you sarcasm; the last tool of a fool."
is it the Ruth the great question? SO lets put kibitzing aside,
does the daas baal batim hepech daas torah, not include Daa Baalbuste?

Anonymous said...

da'as torah!? you must be kidding.what kind of joke is that? the majority of learned rabbis were wrong about the two most important jewish issues of the
20th century:1-the state of israel;2-to stay in europe.
never before in jewish history was it ever asserted that learned rabbinic figures had authority beyond 'havayot d'rava v'abaye'.all other matters, of which there are aplenty,were dealt with through a complex process involving rabbinic and communal leadership.

Anonymous said...

Yosef 718...

Why has the Hamodia not taken a stance against Yeshiva Chovevei Torah?
Is that Yeshiva also included in your wide net of Daas Torah?

Anonymous said...


Malkiel doesn't care about Chasidim going to Touro; what works for you guys is different than for Snags. Lander wanted a mosod for Litvisher different then Reb Ahron.

You are a shaygetz for carrying in that eiruv (unless you show your mahres to Chatzkel Rott and he is your personal posek; you didn't just pick him because he wears a streimel)

Anonymous said...


You misrperesent Maran's view about the Gerrer. He knew him personaly; he wasn't making a blanket statement about businessmen.

Landers had his own dayos. He wanted to make inroads in Litvishe world; Hasids were incidental.

If he would have fayfed on the Rebbe you would be singing a different tune, right? Fech

This - Touro - has nothing to do with the term Daas Torah. It's about priorities and shtayging. Reb Ahron was the Rashgebehag of America and the general (to use a Chabad term) of the yeshivos. You have no appreciation for what he accomplished and you don't have the proper ha'ruchuh for a ben Torah/yeshiva; you think just as there are people that do Chessed, there are people that learn. Reb Ahron taught us that a yungerman that sits in a vinkel and learns uktzin does more for Klal Yisroel than all the Chessed people.


Anonymous said...

The entire BMG is a FOR PROFIT BUSINESS!! Anything they do and say is strictly to make money! Torah is not in the equation- Just because the rebetzin gave out jobs to her son and sons in law when her husband died- does not make them OUR GEDOLIM!

Anonymous said...

Hey Tzig-
Im glad you are starting to expose Lakewood for its strong arm Mafia tactics of control. I must warn you though- these guys play real dirty!! If they view you as a threat to their MONEY or POWER they will go any distance to eliminate you!! They have been doing this for years- they simply silence their oponents and that is the way they have been making all this money for years! They own every person working in the township and they are corrupt as ever! HELP US STOP THEM, PLEASE!!!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

let's not get so excited here. All I'm talking about is the Touro/Daas Toyreh issue now. You can talk Lakewood Town Politics if you like. I do not know what goes on there.

Anonymous said...

Tzig- Better not get started. You will not blv how corrupt it is here. We will keep your site "clean"!

yeruchem said...

cute how these Lakewood guys believe that Reb Aron K believed in hocus pocus!

Anonymous said...

The Rebbe writes his opinion about Touro in Igros Kodesh vol 28 online

Anonymous said...

rmms was against college education. period.
read his op-eds in the jewish press railing agains it

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

"As far as I am concerned DT is an insider code that only litvishe people know what it is. I don't!"

Unfortunately you're wrong, automatons from other kreisen use it in this way, too. It's a vicious cycle of aping trends.

Anonymous said...

"He knew him personaly;"
how exactly did Maran know the Lev simcha? you have no idea what you are talking about, a typical ignorant snag.

Anonymous said...

Fact is

Mrs Zwiebel works for Hamodia and there is a strong connection between the Hamodia and Agudah.

The newspaper is sanitized to the point of blahness every week and as a rule they dont take issues, much like Agudah, namely metziza, Chovevei etc like Yated.

They dont view that as their mandate.

xyz said...

RS Ganzfried zt'k the baal KSA was the Rosh BD of Ungvar

kurenitzer said...

Fo starters I know nothing about the sociological dynamics that have given Lakewod a seeming monopoly over higher Torah study in the US yeshiva community.
Why can't some people start a nother such kollel with housing etc.
Is it healthy for 90% of Kollel people to live in the same community under the same spiritual leadership ?

friendly Anonymous said...


To get free housing, etc., you need a critical mass of unemployed people who are dependent on the government. Lakewood's "seeming monopoly over higher Torah study" thus is not connected to Torah study bichlal.

Anonymous said...


Anonymous said...

he was only a dayan not rosh bies din

Anonymous said...

Tzig, strike two. First the LL asifa, with the misinformation, and now the (redacted) Matzav article.

As a journalist you should know better than to blindy accept shmutz. Listen to the audio.

(of course its pinny the saviour's fault, he's somewhat affiliated ith matzav)

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

1. I'm no journalist.

2. what redacted article? was something changed there?

3. The audio is poshut difficult to listen to. Reb Malkiel iz ahn eydeler yungerman, he has a hard time sounding tough even when making macho'es!

Anonymous said...

Rav Shlomo Ganzfreid was Raavad of Ungvar and a BUSINESSMAN!

for the average person he is the author of a seemingly simple sefer the kitzur.

But he wrote important works on Nidda,Sofrus and Gitin.

When it comes to Sofrus he is considered the final authority.

So much for a Soicher who probably did not qualify to have Daas Teyreh

Yosef 718

CR said...

Forgive my "soicher" ignorance but should it be "Da'as" Torah or "Das" Torah? There is a serious difference between the two.

Anonymous said...


Don't be so bitter. We didn't right you off for being a soicher

(you forgot about אפריון)

Anonymous said...

you didnt answer wich mashpia allowed you to go to college against the excplicit horaah of the rebbe....

Anonymous said...

"come on people Now, try to love one another Rite Now!"

lakewood for 2 long said...

if Lander would have given malkiel a million bucks like Rich Roberts did, malkiel would have written the article about lander himself.

Anonymous said...

Write 'me' off?

Am I the issue here?

Who ever calls me 'fech' happens to be right! I do have serious flaws!

But it seems amusing that even after I clearly stated that for my own family, I subscribe to the chinuch ideals of RMK, but it didn't stop this particular litvak-drei-kop to accuse me of not having the proper 'ha'arocho' of the worth of a 'ben torah'.

So throwing in "yosef 718" and the kitchen sink, into this debate will not negate the terrible thing of attacking a CHAREDI newspaper for praising a man for his chesed.

Did RMK criticize Hamodia or Aguda for having supplements and books on R. Moshe Sherer zt"l?

Was RMS a Ben Tayreh?

That is the issue!!!

ולעצם הענין

Yes there is conflicting sources if עוקצין is more important than שתדלנות

Reb Meir Shapiro held that its important to become a member of parliment and take time off of learning with his Yeshiva Bochirim.

Yes even Mordechai HaTzadik was criticized for his work in helping Yidden פירשו ממנו מקצת סנהדרין

Still we find in Rishonim -and I will post just one of many - where לימוד התורה is not the 'highest' ideal!

Who can argue with the Ra"n?

I have shown this Ra'N to many a litvak, and always their eyes pop out!

It clearly states that mesiras nefesh even in business, is a higher value that limud hatorah!

So much for the age old debate between Chasidim and Misnagdim.

I feel that RMK unwittingly is just mamishich his own sectarian way of thinking. And it is his right!

But to criticize a publication for praising a "Person" for his good deeds [not for for his derech or that derech], or should be translated into belittling Torah is outrageous.

Specially against a publication that is 'moser nefesh' to uphold what is near and dear to every Torah Jew.

[and yes as the Ran points out, an oisek in worldly matters can be a Torah Jew]

Anonymous said...

Yosef or who ever you are

Read the next paragraph in the Ran (the one you didn't cite about being oisek in wordly matters)

And next time quote the preceding paragraph where he says even if someone isn't bishlemius hachuchmuh, he can still attain the darga of being a tzadik like "lay hu'ured, hu'ured meymes"- the old Novordiker song.

He means be the best you can be and always be duvok in the Bashefer (don't hang out on blogs like this)

Here's the whole cite, for anyone who is interested.
page 42

Again, don't be down on yourself, If you have sheyphus for Gadlus in Torah, and try your best, even Litvaks will be machsiv a soicher. Just don't fall into the Artscrol rut (or Steinzaltz for the kat members)

Anonymous said...

anon. 11:39

"specially against a publication that is 'moser nefesh' to uphold what is near and dear to every Torah Jew"

You can not be talking about the Hamodia.
What mesiras nefesh does the Hamodia have.

Did they ever stick their neck out for any issue.

Did they ever say a word against Avi Weiss' Yeshiva Chovevei Torah?

Did they ever write a word for metzizah Bpeh?

Did they ever write a good word about Rubashkin, before the sentencing?

Did they ever attack PETA?

Did they ever attack the conservative Jewish platform?

This list can go on and on.

How dare you say that they are Moser Nefesh to uphold what is dear to every torah Jew.

They are absolutly NEVER moser nefesh