Sunday, November 2, 2008
Can you say witchhunt?
CBT commenting on the situation in Postville:
This is not in my normal range of issues, but like many people I have been following the Rubashkin story lately, and it's implications are frightening for all Orthodox Jews as well as for Judaism in America. One thing is for sure, it is one of the biggest cases of redifa of yidden in a long time. It is also an updated politically correct case of alilas damim (a literal blood libel), only in the case it is not Beilis who is being falsely accused of killing an innocent Christian boy, but the Rubashkins, and by implication they are implicating all shomrei Torah umitzvos, that now it is the PETA types who are accusing the shochtim and butchers of Rubashkin (all of whom are yerei shomayim and mumchim) of "cruelty" to animals by the way they allegedly mistreat and "kill" them and are shedding the blood of the animals. (Nowadays when Muslims kill Christians like in the Sudan Civil War and Darfur the world does not scream or arrest people).
Then you have the labor union crowd that is acting holier than thou, when everyone knows that unions, especially ones in the meat packing industry, are totally corrupt and completely influenced by the mobs that control them inside out. These people decided to pick on Rubashkin because Rubashkin did not want to hire union workers (is that a "crime"?) and so Rubashkin as Hasidic Orthodox Jews were easy targets to slander, to cite them for violations for hiring and using illegals, when all of America is being serviced and run by illegals. The cops and the feds are free to take a ride down any street in America and stop at any store, gas station, construction site, lawn service, you name it, and you will see all those Hispanics and sometimes Asians (the days of Italian and Greek workers are long, long gone) and you can arrest a few million people in a week. Notice how they did not pick on the agricultural industry in California where the unions actually protect the illegals and try to bring more in from Mexico and central America where millions of them work without any permits and they provide them with benefits too. Then you have the anti-Semites of Iowa and the Midwest who just hate the Jews in their midst and like Nazis would love to make Iowa "Juderein" even if it will hurt them, they will cut of their noses to spite their own faces.
The reported incidents of misbehavior by members of the Chabad communuty in Postville, mostly some unruly youngsters not staff of Rubashkin, did not help matters. Iowa and being out of town is not like hanging out in Crown Heights. But honestly, that is more than off-set by the excellent record of good and harmonious relations with the genral public and with public and government officials on all levels that all Chabad shluchim, their wives and familes have with people in thousands of places in America and the world.
So all in all, it is a big tragedy, that a family business like Rubashkin, that has been providng excellent meat products at very affordable prices should be put through this. The Young Israel and OU sent a rabbinic delegation that found everything to be in order in the kashrus department. Unfortunately, by the time the delegation of rabbis got there and put in their good word it was too late because the conglomeration of anti-Rubashkin (read: anti-Yiddiskeit) had already planned and made their moves and Rubashkin has now been hit from too many direction. People need Rubashkin's meat products, and the competitiveness that it brings to the meat market, more than ever.Let us hope it will have nitzchiyos for all the good it has done for Klal Yisroel and will have techiyas hameisim for every blow that knocked it down, and that they will be able to continue and be of service to all Jews in the ways of chesed that they are famous for.
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lubavitcher are דאך yidden too.
I'm very wary of this entire episode.
I get that in many cases they are the subject of harrasment from PETA et al. But are you saying all the rubashkins are 100 percent innocent of any crimes?
I find that very improbable, and I don't to think that way, I want to believe the best. But I just have a hard time with this story. It never ends, allegations upon allegations upon allegations.
The PETA stuff I can push aside, but hiring legal aliens, underpaying them, having under age illegal kids working in the plant ... the government isn't making that up ...
If they don't follow the law, shouldn't they be punished?
not much to add to your words - 100% correct
CBT, how do you ignore the plethora of evidence, including identity theft and the blank identity cards found in Rubashkin's offices? Stop living in denial and stop making silly excuses.
leah and chaim
this is normal in America :gas stations, car washs, construction, shickses,mc donalds, burger kings, etc., etc, etc
YOU and Inmigration officers go to all these places as costumers
well put, you have it very clear
Another genius,Satmartc, adds his two food stamps to the discussion.
sorry to break it to you but it's almost unheard of that a large corporation should break the law in such a wholesale way.
But you can continue to drink the kool aid, it has a gitteh hechsher!
I'm curious if the pro Agri posters are proposing to decriminalize illegal immigration?
Do you want the whole third world trying to make it over here, have kids who''ll be U.S citizen, all safe in the knowledge that once you are here, you''ll never be arrested or deported?
זאג נאר סקווער איז אויך גיווען א" "וויטשהאנט?
פאר וואס איז עס אז ווען מע' כאפט א היימישע יוד מיט א שייגעץ שטיק איז עס אייביג אן עלילה?
ווען די שחורים טאנען די זעלבע מאאכען אונז חוזק
this is the reason why most companies are outsoursing their workforces. it is very expensive in America. it is not competitive
if not, look our economy!
.Would you prefer AGri in South America?
Are you going to stop buying Japanese cars?
look the American economy
I think that everyone who wants to work, should be welcome to America
we need cheaper workers
I don’t know if after this, one can call US government “fair” and “honest” (forget about robin-hoodian/socialists tactics that’s been going for over a century). And in a case of an unfair government, principle of dina d’malchusa dina does not apply anymore.
To Leah who says: "CBT, how do you ignore the plethora of evidence, including identity theft and the blank identity cards found in Rubashkin's offices? Stop living in denial and stop making silly excuses."
This reminds me, as it should you, of the old rabbinic story of two people who came to a rov for a din Torah and each was given a chance to meet with the rov first in private and discuss their claims. All the while the rebbetzin was in another room and she could hear the discussions. After the first man expressed his claims, the rov said: "you are right" and after the second man expressed his claims, the rov said to him "you are right" and after they left, the rebbetzin comes into the room and confronts her husband the rov and said "how could you tell both men that they are both right?", to which the rove said to the rebbetzin: "you are also right!" So Leah, you are also right!
Anyhow, one can look at the situation in many ways and noone would deny the obvious wrongs of which there are many and of different shades and levels. But not all the wrongs are equal and that is where you make a mistake by comparing different categories, as a logical fallacy.
Unfortunately business is not, by its very nature, a very "clean" and morally pure undertaking. It is a lot of rough and tumble and in the heat of the scramble with oders, negotions, communications, finances, plans, meetings, travels, shipments, payments, hirings and firings and much more it is not always possible to keep a clear headed objective view that can be afforded in hindsight.
The moral compass often needs time to point in the right direction and it takes time and effort to glance at it and apply its readings. That is why there is Yom Kippur, to atone for mistakes.
A business is almost never a mussar kloiz, and businessmen are not usually the most eidel and subtle people. They have to be rough and tough in the cut-throat environment, and yes, indeed, you are right, they do make many mistakes along the way and they do cross the line of what is right many times, but they are expected to be able to ultimately correct themselves and steer themselves right like captains guiding ships through rough seas and currents.
A captain who lets his ship crash on the rocks is both guilty and guiltless at the same time. On the one hand he is responsible for the fate of his ship and should never have allowed his ship to get near the rocks to get stranded on them, on the other hand if he is just the victim of a tsunami and storm and currenst that threw his ship against the shore, what is he to do and he cannot be blamed.
You know the Reichman brothers of Toronto also went through a huge storm when their billion dollar Olympia and York company crashed on the rocks and they were also guilty of much wrong so that the banks had to come in and took away most of the Reichman's real estate assets. Or what happened to Michael Milken a few years ago when his accounting schemes came undone and billions went down the tube and he was sentneced to jail time (by a Jewish lady judge who was later found to be having an affair. -- So she was no saint either.)
Crashes of all sorts happen in business all the time and it is dangerous to pass judgment on the main actors in the dramas, even though the goyish media loves to pillory its chosen victims. Just like the Reichamn were huge benfactors of the Haredi world and Milken was a benefactor of the Conservative Jews, likewise Rubashkin is a huge benefactor of the Lubavitch and Hasidic world.
Butif big businesses struggle or go under the world does not end and life goes on and one must hope that Jews who help other Jews with tens of millions of dollars will recover and be able to continue to do all the good that they became famous for.
So you can look at the glass of Rubashkin as being either half full or half empty.
You can, if you like focus on the "empty" part and be disgusted that it came to this, but at the same you can also focus on the "full" side and say that given all the good and merits of the Rubashkins, they should not be subjected to such horrendous hell-bent purges.
Do you know that for decades the Rubashkins feed thousands of hungry Jews for FREE in Brooklyn?
And that is just the tip of what they do. They are good people in a rough business. Being butchers is pretty messy stuff and most people would never go into that line of work even for big salaries. But they manged to create a great product line, lower prices and be reliable in kashrus and delivery. What more can one ask? That they be as pious as the Chofetz Chaim and the Baal Shem Tov? They are pious enough by today's standards, and then some.
Anyhow the Rubashkins are rich people and they will live on, but the thousands of men women and many children in families (some in some very far-flung places) who count on their chickens as the basic meat for meals during the week and Shabbos are going to now be hit with much higher prices by other companies, such as Empire chickens that costs about one dollar more per pound for the same chicken, and Rubashkins is fresher packed and better tasting. So in the end the consumer is going to lose from all the "good intentions" and "law abiding" actions of destructive do-gooders such as PETA and the corrupt unions that started the Inquisition against the Rubashkins in the first place.
Have you seen the cruelty PETA has a problem with? You can watch the video here: http://getactive.peta.org/campaign/kapporos
Back up what you mean by "witchhunt" or go done in my book as a fool.
This story has unfolded slowly but surely.
P.S I remember the similar unfolding of the late Rebbe as Moshiach story.
Very similar in the unwillingness to accept reality
I'm not sure I care how I go down your book...
Rubashkin has basically seized operation......
But we still have our fools complaining about witchunts and anti-semitism.
This was the obvious ending to anybody who had an iotas of sense going back more than a year ago.
But still the same fools were screaming anti-semitsm......
How we have cheapened the real meaning of anti semitism.
What a bunch of fools some of us are.
Zayt mir mechel, but this is the same US govt that passes the Education day legislation, proclaimed a Schneersohn day, issued a coin in honor of rabbi Schneersohn and the same govts that gave the rebbe keys to their sates, the same govt that Lubavitcher shluchim fawn over and have their pictures taken with. Why suddenly a libel?
The US is a nation of laws, federal and state its the same system that protects fredom of religion and freedom of speech. It the same system that pours in millions of dollars to religious institutions like chaplaincy etc etc.
There are rules and regulations and you can not pick and choose.
Clearly the Rubashkins decided that laws do not apply to them. They had plenty of hasroah from all sides but decided to ignore that and even more to enter into the forgery of documents. So we end up not with a libel but with a massive Chilul hashem (a bearded Jew in cuffs) for which if I remember correctly there is no teshuva.
As afr as you and your readers go , I doub that your schools ever offered a serious course in American history, its something worthwhile to read.
Here the goverment does not have anything to do
Agri did not proceed correctly, everyone knows
But just as there is Lechatchila and bedieved , and you see that these cases of illegals workers is something that is not 100% inforced (as you can see all the illegal workers in the differents fields,millions, Obama's aunt, etc),so this is a case of bedieved
Obviously if you have millions of individuals who hire illegal workers (shickses, etc) and they go straight against Rubashkins , ...
"sorry to break it to you but it's almost unheard of that a large corporation should break the law in such a wholesale way."
Harry Fan, you are a putz, a naive one, but still a putz.
ever hear of Tyson Foods? try google'ing that. They were busted with the very same allegations years ago (PETA, Illegals, union busting). The only differnece was they happened to be based in Arkansas and in a cozy relationship with Bill (pass me a cigar) Clinton...so they got by with a slap on the wrists.
And that's only the meat industry. Need we look any further then the latest headlines to realize the shenanigans that have taken place in the financial industry?
So let's grow up.
To CBT, fine post but I would agree with the sentiment of some of the posts that "if you live by the sword you die by the sword".
Things were not at all 'Kosher' (couldn't resist) at Postville and they got caught. Indeed as you say just like Millkin, who was as crooked as a two dollar bill.
No question, their money supported many a moisad, and they would give you the shirt of their backs, and we should employ any tactic avaiable to extricate them from this mess....but I don't think this had very much to do with which day of the week they keep the sabbath.
Like you said yourself in you response, business, ESPECIALLY this business, is a cut throat endeavor (again, sorry for the pun). And they got stuck bigtime!
Hard to make millions and stay under the radar! You make it big and you become a target.
When I used the word "potz" you censored me, when this idiot, "chuchem be'enei atsmo" bpunbound swiney lubob used it, it's ok?
Lets see you give one cEnt to help Rubashkin, big "tawker"
I censored other things, not the word Pu--. You really need to check your emotions, take a chill pill, dude.
So tell me, Mr. "financial interest," how much will you DOLE out, I have a hard time paying for groceries, let alone helping others.
my, ibbp, what big teeth you have!
'Swiney Lubob', my, I'm overwhelmned by your Ahavas Yisroel. I'm sure AAR is thrilled to have you in his corner.
Actually, why the fit, I was directing my comments to Harry; perhaps you have some mysterious relationship with him too that you would like to share with us?
And tell us, oh wise one, how much have you contributed to the defense fund. Or does your VIP donor status rest solely on the fact that you buy a pound of Aaron's pastrami every third Friday?
BTW, that's putz, putz. Potz are for cooking...which you're definitely not.
You are late to the party.The Goat and I had DUKED it out in a previous thread where he correctly identified what I meant when I referred to the Goat and his "ilk" (of which you are hereby accorded "founder" status)
thanks for the tip..i tracked back...we may agree on more then we disagree. And you don't fool me with that 'ilk' stuff.
But really, if your kind enough to consider Lub. as Yidden, why all the 'swine' stuff? You tryin' to light some fires or somethin?
InBP: Besides calling Jews 'Swine', what else have your learned from the Nazis?
All I can say to the Rubashkins: Don't let the door hit you on the way out!
For those of you who still want to say that the government is picking on the Rubashkins due to antisemitism, that everyone hires illegals so its ok and no one else gets prosecuted, the following link confirms that federal criminal charges were brought against the managers/owners of a factory in Massachusetts for harboring illegal aliens. The company had to pay almost $2 million in fines and restitution and jail time is likely: http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2008/11/head_of_factory.html
Moshe was sentenced today.Nothing to do with this mayseh.
But their is a pattern, which is called "shteytel mentality"
Why go through so much agmas nefesh, money maybe worse, just because nobody with a drop of seyechel told them that's it's not cedai to start up with the Gitteh Fetter, Sam?
What was good in Bobroisk or Siget ain't gonna work here
(and maybe it was not good "there" either.But here we have a "bereira" there are good parnusehs without being chazeirem)
Why is something so simple such a bone of contention?
I guess that's what frustrates me with a airhead like The Goat.He sees, hears no evil about "his chevra" and projects all the evil in his (quite evil)heart onto his "enemies"
A persons worst "friend" is a fool.
In response to Bpunbound
let me guess: you have a "financial stake" in Moshe's business too?
Have I ever highlighted all the non-Lubavitchers who rot in jail now due to their indiscretions?! I didn't think so.
Now go get some fresh air, you seem to be lacking, and it's getting in the way of your thinking.
Are you trying to prove the fact that you are truly incapable of any reflection whatsoever??
Moshe was sentenced today it's front news on Vosizneias and it's relevant to my point of a silly disregard of the gitteh feters gezetsen.I'm not going to list the whole list but it's endemic in that part of the "world"(brooklyn bundler etc...).
But, you see that you are proving the point of how dangerous it is to have a fool as a friend.You have been defending their silliness(i call it silliness, because they are not criminals)talked about withchunts, egged them on.So what are the results of you snd your *ILK*'s eitzos???
Agri basically bankrupt, a family financially at their knees with some members in potential risk of "chad gadya"
And you claim to be their "friend"
With friends like you they don't need enemies
"Have I ever highlighted all the non-Lubavitchers who rot in jail now due to their indiscretions?! I didn't think so."
"All the non-Lubab"
What are you smokin'??
Can you tell me about any other name which has had such coverage before??
Are you trying to say it's a story that is not newsworthy?That's it has any relation to some heimishe yukel who "forgot" to pay taxes??
Are you really so dumb??
Real issues you won't handle, instead you copy boring crap from other websites about "socialism" that nobody gives a rats *&* about, or another baseless and jealous "attack" against Artscroll for publishing yet another Jewish bestseller.
What an interesting and intellectually stimulating fellow you are!
lay off the espresso.
I never defended Moshe or his shennanigans, so stop hakking me about VIN and it being top news. I'm not a news site and I don't do news here.
You rave like a lunatic, screaming that I don't see how terrible the situation is, using the worst language out there. Please don't tell me what I know and don't know. All we're talking about is the fact that they're being made an example of, not whether or not they should've listened to geniuses like yourself.
I'm sorry you're not interested in everything I post, I guess I can't please everybody.
You again misread my point.
Moshe (note I did not even write his last name, because it was totally a side issue)was an aside.I was not expecting you to blog about it.
The issue I've been "hacking" about was a mangled up "defense" of a family and co. who needed to be told in no uncertain terms to stop before they ruin themselves and whole Orthodox world into the mud.
Instead the "fools" were defending them, telling them they were being "picked on" This is patently false, but again proves the simple mindset:Let's say someone is being "picked on" by a three hundred pound gorilla, don't you tell them to get away as soon as possible?
The whole "witchunt" defense is another one of those pearls of "heimishe mevinehs".Did they employ about 400 illegals???
Is the goverment supposed to give prizes for that?
In fact they went easy on them!
But again that's not the issue.The issue is partisan explanations for "inzereh" that come at a heavy cost for the defended.
*You claim that you "cannot please everyone".Do you think anybody was interested in your crap yet again about Artscroll??What was the point about R'wolbes picture?The pic?If so it was interesting, but the post made no sense.
The Mental guy was moody but very interesting.You are a boor and a fool
ramble on, my brotha.
It makes for great one-sided conversation.
You were the one coming to the Agri defense.
Where are they now?
Who is rambling?
Lets now discuss some boring "pirsum rishons" , shall we?
Remember the 'pisum rishon" of the kappel painted on the pic of the Rebbs uncle.
The one you "swore" was not touched up?
Remember the crow you ate?
Let's discuss it,k?
Wonder what''ll happen when some embarrassing pirsum rishons comeout.
Another 'nechaz basvach' for example
moving right along.
you can start your own blog:
or you can buy cheap mentalblog.com
ליידער דער רובאשן פירמע האט זיך באנקראטירט.
וואס האסטו צו זאגען יעצט??
איין זון איז ארויס אויף בעיל ,דער אנדערע האט מן געמשפט אויף טורמע
און אויף דער אייניקעל ליגט א שווערד ביים האלץ
ווילסטע זאגען אז דו זעסט נישט עפעס נישט ווי דער שטייגער?
ס'איז נישט בלויז אויף לובאוויטש תלונתי
עס ווייסט אויס אז דער היימישע וועלט פילט אז עס קומט זיך זיי אלעס, אפילו אומפארדינט ,אפילן מיט גניבות
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