Sunday, November 29, 2009

Daas Toyreh- unplugged

After solving the world's problems, speaking about "taboo subjects" such as internet addiction, substance abuse and even - gasp! - "niglos" problems, saluting Reb Moshe Sherer zt"l, and bringing down the house, Reb Chaim Dovid can finally relax and have a grand old time at the Melava Malka. I was thinking about whether I join the bashers and attack the convention for being a weekend of free and self gratulation, or do I just let them enjoy themselves and boast of their numerous accomplishments? After all, the Agudists will point to a laundry list of accomplishments from as far back as 80 years ago, and will tell you that without them there would be no Yiddishkeit in America. The Gedolim who built Torah in America would not be here without their rescue efforts during WW2. There would be no Yeshivos because there would be no Government funding for them, and we would not be able to support them from tuition and donations alone. We would not be able to wear yarmulkes at the workplace and we would have to work on Shabbos. In short, we'd be sitting without yarmulkes at work on Shabbos...

so, Kudos to them.

I just hope that RAB doesn't spend all Shabbos and Motzoei Shabbos there just to entertain Reb Chaim Dovid...

I think what gets many of us is that in real life guys like Chaim Dovid, Avi Shafran and some others are really great, warm people. They really do like to help their fellow Jews. It's just that once they start working for the organization/corporation they became hacks. I've had the pleasure of spendingh time with R' Chaim Dovid and he's a gem of a guy. A varemer Galicianer Yid. A ben torah. Many, many mayles. It's tough being around guys like these and stay true to the mission. I also have heard people tell me how Avi was this "wild" guy back in his Kerem days, and even later, in his days in Providence, where he did have to be more straight-laced, he still was a ton of fun. Yet, once you go to work for "daas torah" something happens to you, at least that's the face you show the world. It ain't easy. I'm not sure any of us would have passed that nisayon.


Anonymous said...

in yiddish you call it a (me)Galuchim Rikud, how cute

LikeWhatever said...

Maybe it wouldve been better if after they got the oilem from the 50's to wear those cloth green yarmulkas, they wouldve closed shop.

They're much cheaper and more practical then those velvet super religious ones.

And who knows, maybe without all the goverment funding only those that really belong to learn all day (like 7.5%) would be learning Torah Llishma while the rest wouldve had to go to cost efficient Hirschian style schools where you learnt a trade on the side...

Who knows...

Anonymous said...

This Aguda convention is a non event as a Minyan in Shomer Shabbos on 13th av, couldnt they get the multi talented hagoan Rav Schor to say some bombastic statement? by looking on all the blogs their is almost no reportage of a event that has "All"the "Gedolim" in full attendance, the Pittsburgher rebbes tish get more coverage, how long can such a event go on? in the old days it was at least a event for shiduchim it was the American Tu bishvat to find your mate,but what is this event today? can Yossef 718 the unoficial spokesman for the Agudah explain? Please

NonymousG said...

In my eyes, since Aguda opposed the law to help convict child molesters they have no right to claim themselves as a mouthpiece for the community.

Anonymous said...

what about Mike Tress.NO MENTION

Anonymous said...

tzik u the old aguda of mike tress had nothing 2 do with these jokers

Baalhabous said...

Tzig there wew all type of whispers all weekend long at the convention that George Weinberger is on the outs in the Agudah,and that cbz is the cause of that.So those pics of them dancing together are very intresting to say the least.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

what's Weinberger upset about?

and will Shuvu suffer too?

nonmouse said...

theyre still open?!
i thought they closed when sherer stopped coming in to his office!

Baalhabous said...

Its not Weinberger who is upset, its the ppl working for agudah who are upset at him. For what you ask,its not completely clear but it seems like it has something to do with his controlling ways,after all hes the one most responsible for R Shmuel Blooms resignation wink wink

Eli Duker said...

Tzig, are Yat Kislev celebrations guilty of the crimes you accuse the Aguda convention of being?
As a non-Agudist non-Lubavitcher who has attended both, I don't understand what your tainas are.

Anonymous said...

MH. You attended both and you see a comparison?!

Stuck in midair straining to hear a Siberian Survivor tlk about Chassidus in the Gulag vs. Mixed sitting hearing some American Yankee fan Rosh Yeshiva tlk about Torah in Lakewood

Stale crackers and herring with stolichnaya vodka vs. Fillet Mignon on a lemon sliced Fruit mix

An impassioned plea to feif uhn velt, give up this world and the next to make a dwelling place for Hashem thru spreading Yiddishkeit vs. "Supporting our Gedolim in feeling solidarity with our brethren in crisis"

I don't know which Yat Kislev Farbrengens you attended. But for better or for worse there is like zero comparison!!

Friendly Anonymous said...

My shul's yud tes kislev dinner is going to be a catered affair, with an American-born yungerman as guest speaker.

It might be kedai to read the Alter Rebbe's letters from the period after the passing of The Chosid The Geon (yud tes Tishrei 5558) to see how he expected his chassidim to speak about misnagdim. Scary stuff for the chevra here.

Anonymous said...

is that the same guy that slashed salaries of all the rebbeim at torah vodaas?

LikeWhatever said...

Hey Friendly One. If that's the case maybe Takeh ur shul should hire Abish to inspire you all. And I'm sure Zwibel would agree to be keynote Farbrenger.

Friendly anonymous said...

We have our own ana"sh Zwiebels. No need to hire fremde.

Anonymous said...

chaim dovid means well

Anonymous said...

tzig weinberger tries to get his nose in everywhere he could and tried to take over the aguda. he started by getting rid of bloom and making himself chairman. now the word is alot of old aguda employees are fed up with him and want him out

Anonymous said...

the road to hell is paved with good intentions

Anonymous said...

the road to hell is paved with good intentions

LikeWhatever said...

So Friendly One, if we're anyway both eating stuffed chicken with poached potaoes, and we have to listen to Keynote Farbrengens from selected politically correct honorees why can't we merge with Agudah?

Why can't we sit mixed together?

Avremele said...

There are no good intentions with Weinberger. He is the reason Ran Noach Isaac Oelbaum isn't RY in YTV.

Piny said...

"I don't know which Yat Kislev Farbrengens you attended. But for better or for worse there is like zero comparison!!"

You are a royal ferd.Did you attend the Aguda convention so you can say your two-bit mevinus on it?Do you even know what goes on there?
You won't even choose a name!!!!

piny said...

"He is the reason Ran Noach Isaac Oelbaum isn't RY in YTV."

Avremel Baachi,
Not knowing if any of your "facts" are such or just boich sevoros,I can tell you that YTV has top notch roshei yeshiva, amongst them R'Yoisef Savitzky,R'Belsky and R'Reisman.
Thank you very much

Yossi said...

For some reason whenever anything about Agudah comes up or takes place the Tzig has a jealous hissy fit.
Nobody is telling you to become an Agudist, you can still go and worship in your Chabad House, farbreng there and repeat ad nauseam your babbeh mayses about your rebbe,your nossi, your moshiach etc.Whatever, just leave the rest of us, normal, non shulchim-and-hard-working people out out your fantasies.
Yishar koiach fun forois.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

leave you out of your fantasies? oh kayyyy

what does that have to do with anything?

you go to the Convention?

I doubt it. Normal people don't go. Oh, I forgot.

LikeWhatever said...

Piny Batchi, sorry about the name I thought it was on.

My Parents are ardent Agudah Convention goers and so was much of the shul I grew up in. My Rosh Yeshiva was and is a major force there and I am in contact with many an Agudist. In fact just recently I had a meeting in their office near the Bronze Bull on WallStret.

However my friend I'm thrilled to hear implied from your words that YOU were actually there!
Great! Please tell me my Batchy friend. What in the world do yo "do" there?

And what is in your opinion the similarities to The Convention and Yat Kislev farbrengens??
What is the point?

What are the accomplishments?

Yossi said...

"I doubt it. Normal people don't go. Oh, I forgot."

Have you ever been there to know?

Another statement from one of "them"
Keep to blogging about your "yomim tovim".You just had one on tes kislev, and the whopper "rosh hash ona" lechasides is coming up.
Keep to that

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...


keep the "insults" coming, but the average guy cannot afford a weekend away at a posh hotel, even at the Agudah rates. Not after all he needs to pay for, despite the major accomplishments of the Agudah Echos. I guess you think that Twin Oaks standard of living is normal...

pleasant dreams

yossi said...

The Agudah conventions public events are open to anyone, many people come to them for an evening and drive home.Even to Lubavitcher ingrates who know to come running when they need any real help from the one Orthodox organization that knows what it's doing when dealing with the Federal Goverment.
We saw what you guys did to Rubashkin when you "ran" the show.
Continue your "in your face lechatchila ariber" and see how many more have to enjoy "Club Fed"

yossi said...

You know the saying "People who live in glass houses should not throw stones"?
You criticize the Agudah for their very reasonably priced convention, while not saying a word about the travesty of Lubavitch wasting over a million dollars of community money to "fix" up an armory for one day!@!!
Besides for forcing all those shluchim to spend many thousand of dollars (which they claim they don't have..)to come for this fartsy p.r event.
Agudah forces nobody to come.
But keep up your empty attacks.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

wow, an Agudah hack speaking of something he knows nothing about! how typical...

1) nobody was forced to come

2) it's not community money

3) There are over 4500 people that attend, where the hell should they be put? In the New Novominsker BM?


LikeWhatever said...

What is there to "know"?

Just tell dear Agudist. What exactly is the great secret that only attendees are privy to.

Since the Chasunah Takkanos that were wildly successful as evident from The Aguda inspired Satmere Chassidim who just finished building 3 affordable halls...

What other great recent accomplishments can you share with us

yossi said...

"2) it's not community money"

So sorry.
Wait, where is the money from? I mean I was putting it nicely and calling it "community money" what do you guys call it, "shnorr" or who knows geganveteh gelt?
Maybe from Kotlarsky's pocket?

LikeWhatever said...

Besides for the "small" difference that the million $ is being invested in shluchim, who like em or not, are actually doing something productive with their lives. Fact is that because of their PR machine they send out a couple of Shluchim EVERY WEEK.

Whilst the convention is geared toward... ummm pls fill us in. Who is the convention geared to?

And what IS THE ROI of all that Turkey?!

What did Agudah PRODUCE?

yossi said...

Supposedly, your parents are ardent "convention goers" so is your "Rosh"
basically you are now cursing them out?
Way to go Lubavitcher...Once one becomes a Lubavitcher you disown your parents?

Anonymous said...

tzik i am not chabad but i have to agree with you here. i am card holding life time aguda member. and i am embarssed of it. i drank their kool aid for to long and gave them money. until one day i woke up and realized that they have not done 1 constructive thing for any individual in klal yisroel in the last 20 years. and i am ready to dispute with any one who wants to differ. and as someone who has gone to the conventions for over 20 years they have turned into today a big waste of time with the topics decided by a bunch of balei batim. not like it used to be when the gedoilim decided the topics.

Anonymous said...

The Agudah is fake, they employ Mr. Moses Kolodny who is not a lubo when his machzick his daughter in arko'oys and they do nothing about it.

How does a lubo like you tzig let someone say TV has Belsky as Rosh yeshiva. he is the ACHER of the DOR, an animal who is involved in beating men up for a get when their wives are in arko'oys.

yossi said...

Your "story" sounds better than the one with the 13 year old kid who reports his father to Stalins police and gets widely "praised" by the Communists.
I guess you show how getrai you are to your "real" father.
We need Shea Hecht here ,emergency, he is a "cult buster",no?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...


I see they did a real number on you. Not going to the convention if your parents went is like stopping a Pesach minhag/Chumroh that they had. And you say that Like Whatever needs a cult-buster?!

Anonymous said...

A "cult buster" member of a cult himself.

LikeWhatever said...

So your spraying from a double barrel automatic here?

I'm B"H very close to my parents and sorry, nope I'm not signed up with Lubavitch.

However I never realized that that's the way it works. That once your parents and Rosh are Agudists your brain shuts down and your not allowed to think independantly.

Plus I never realized that differences of opinion makes you "curse out" and "disown" parents.

Woa, pls R Yossel. let's focus on the issue.

What is the Roi on the conventions

yossi said...

LikeWhaever is cursing the Agudah out, saying how useless the convention is etc.
So basically he is saying that his parents and Rosh are stupid for being part of such a group.
Had to explain the obvious to you,sorry.You would not understand on your own because you have also turned against the place you came from

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

using your "logic," Yossi, I guess three quarters of Lakewood is in the same boat with me and Like Whatever...

yossi said...

"nope I'm not signed up with Lubavitch. "

Yet you know the exact menu of herring and "fadorbeneh salat" at the 770 farbys,eh?
Yet, you are a staunch supporter of wasting a million dollars of community raised Tzedoka money to salute yourselves?
Yeah,I'm convinced you are NOT a Lubavitcher.
Ha ha.

yossi said...

Why is that,Hirshel?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

why? cuz they also think that the Agudah is irrelevant and the convention is a fress weekend!

yossi said...

You guys are so funny.Your gala shluchem banquet was such a overboard waste of millions, yet you have the gall to criticize The Agudah.?
I guess anything goes in Lubavitch when you are dealing with the "enemy"

yossi said...

As someone who has never ever bothered to check out BMG (AKA The "enemy"),someone who has never seen Lakewood, don't you think that claiming what three quarters of Lakewood "think" is a stretch.Even for you?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

excuuuuuuuse me!

how would you know where I was???

YOSSI said...

You were not ashamed to mention on your blog that you had never been inside BMG.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

and how long ago was that???

LikeWhatever said...

Yossel your still avoiding answering the Questions. Seems to me your in a bind. Your Trying to attack your way out with shooting hot words like "cult"
And making assumptions.

Yes I have observed many farbrengens and Nope I haven't signed up with lubavitch!

Like what didn't you understand?
I don't believe your that small Yossi that you believe you must "be" whatever you see.

Or maybe I'm wrong.

But I'll try one more time anyway.

What's the ROI on the convention?

yossi said...

So you have been there,lately?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I have not. But I have VERY reliable sources on the ground in Lakewood.

yossi said...

I strongly suspect that you are a young bored boy on so called shliches,who has never had parents who attended Agudah conventions or a Rosh who has the slightest connection to Agudas Isroel.
Your time would be better spent parroting Ramba"m "vekadaymeh".
Be well
Let's have this discussion when you turn 21

yossi said...

I have a fellow here talking about Lakewood,BMG etc who has never even bothered to check it out??
Sounds like a card carrying Lubavitcher!!
Bravo,Hirshel.Way to go.Like this you"ll never have to deal with those bothersome little details called "facts"
You are making they guy who turned you into a Lubavitche proud!Another person that he turned the brain switch off for

FYI said...

Here are a few examples of recent Agudah accomplishments:
(1) In 2005, they advocated for and secured a grant of $2.5 Million towards computer hardware for Yeshivos.
(2) In 2006 they were instrumental in getting a Child Tax-Credit Bill passed in NY, estimated benefits to the Frum community (annually) the vicinity of $25 Million.
(3) In 2007, they pled for, and got $39 Million in the State budget to fund the Comprehensive Attendance Policy (otherwise known as CAP), a great part of which goes to Yeshivos. In 2008, $54.9 Million went towards CAP - and in 2009, amid state-wide budget cuts, they argued successfully that for safety purposes that the program should continue, securing $30 Million.
(4) Additionally in 2009, they obtained a $5 Million capital grant to purchase School buses for Private schools.
(5) Recently, they got $8 Million restored for Priority 7 school vouchers, and a commitment from the mayor for an additional $8 million.
(6) Sponsored numerous workshops and seminars directly benefitting Yeshivos, as well as sending out important information that they need to know on a weekly basis.
(7) They were instrumental in getting the City to contract with 3rd party vendors – Title I services – that brings in Millions of dollars in Special-Ed services.
(8) Each year they advocate for the $10 Million grant to subsidize In-Vitro Fertilization. Since 2002 over $70 Million has been awarded by NYS to subsidize In-Vitro Fertilization. ALMOST ALL of these funds go to Frumme Yidden.
(9) And there are many similar accomplishments across the country, ranging from securing millions of much needed dollars for schools, buses, scholarships and vouchers in places like Illinois, Ohio, Florida, Maryland, Indiana, Georgia, to such things as prevention of autopsies and Halachic living-wills at the Cleveland Clinic.
I'm a Chabadnik, not an Agudist, but just because you don’t care what they may be doing doesn’t mean they aren’t doing anything...

LikeWhatever said...

Yossi. I have more relatives Shteiging away in Lakewood then your age. However Your time is up "assuming" things to avoid answering the question.

Thank you FYI for bringing us this impressive list of accomplishments. We are definitly indebted to these services.

However the Question was and remains what is the ROI of THE CONVENTION as far as instituting changes that are of paramount need within the framework of Orthodoxy today.

Where is the changes promised to us in cutting down on Luxury Living?
Where are the changes in The Defunctional Yeshiva system which rejects many of our Bocherim.
Where is the leadership in teaching trades and skills to those that need them.
Etc etc.

bENNY said...

FYI has been commenting here for years, so he is no newcomer making stories up.

LikeWhatever said...

Let's seperate the services and the "Leading klal Yisrael" thing.

These services are vital just like Hatzalah. Refuah. Chai Lifline.
And Ohel. Etc.
If Agudah is only an organization that provides services to the community then kol hakavod. Ashrei Chelkom.

But they promote themselves as the "leaders" of Klal Yisrael today. They set the Rules. There is a Moetzes that sets the standards.

The Convention was traditionally the venue for Gedolei Yisrael to Pasken on the major issues at hand and then the agudah askanim delivered Iniatives on their behest.

It was a different world when the prewar Roshei Yeshiva ran the show.
It seems that this aspect of leadership has today sadly expired. BDE

LikeWhatever said...

Truth is its really a waste of time to try to get a true blue aguda admirer to answer my doubts. They all don't have internet being that the Moetzes Signed against it. And if they don't cheat on their taxes they zicher don't cheat on Daas Torah.

Shoin. So all you get here by The Tzig is some angry exLubabs or frustrated exKollel guys playing devils advocate.

HolyHirshel. I think we gotta go to Tsfat.

Anonymous said...

FYI- no problem that they are shtadlanim. But read the Sherer book and how insulted he would get when ppl said Agudah was anything less than an ideological movement.

You are admitting that they are purely social services.

Anonymous said...

was it really the gedolim or were the askanim just more skilled?

russian chusid said...

as far as i know, RASHAB did not join aguda one of the reasons beeing that the "balabatim vet fearn, nit der gdoilim". This had been like that for years- but at least there were gdoilim on the dais!!! today there is nothing there- what a pity!

Aslo, when AGUDA speaks about their accomplishments in Russia i laugh- they started to do anything only in 1980's- BEFORE THAT THERE WAS ONLY CHABAD WHO CARED ABOUT RUSSIAN YIDISHKEIT.(i am not a lubavicher :))

Like R Motel Der Moskve Shoichet had told me "As a boy i had a choice- or Chabad or Komsomol(l'havdil)"

Where was Aguda??????????????

LikeWhatever said...

When R Leizer Silver was in charge and worked with A. Bunim and with M. Tress they were basically the only representatives of Orthodoxy. And to a great extent they ran the show.

But after the war ven der Satmere Rebbe zechisoi yugein uleini came along and went extreme to implant Krulle in Williamsburg. And R Aharon developed the all new No College Learn Forever movement. The Old Agudas Israel's clientle was doomed.
R Ahron and eventually his Talmidim "took over" the Agudah. The Satmere Rebbe Bashing the movement causing it to take on evermore zealous tones. The Askanim however were for the most part old time Agudah college graduates who straddled between their extreme ideology Lakewood Kollel Kids and the old Agudah "Choshive Doctors"

So now we're left with a defunc movement run by old timers with a long since expired world view representing the New age Lakewooders and Yeshiva leit who despise secular education and promote totally distancing themselves from the treife velt.

Avremele said...

1) piny said...

"He is the reason Ran Noach Isaac Oelbaum isn't RY in YTV."

Avremel Baachi,
Not knowing if any of your "facts" are such or just boich sevoros,I can tell you that YTV has top notch roshei yeshiva, amongst them R'Yoisef Savitzky,R'Belsky and R'Reisman.
Thank you very much

They aren't as dynamic. TV needs a dynamic RY. An attraction.
Rav Savitzky comes in to say a shiur.
Rav Belsky is a tremendous gaon, but he's a political hack.
Rav Reisman is also very big, but he does best when he sticks to navi. (Maybe they should hire Paysach Krohn?)

2) LikeWhatever said...

"Since the Chasunah Takkanos that were wildly successful as evident from The Aguda inspired Satmere Chassidim who just finished building 3 affordable halls"

Aguda inspired nothing. They accomplished nothing.

Anonymous said...

"Your gala shluchem banquet was such a overboard waste of millions"
Did Kotlrasky give you his final costs? how else should they make a event for 4500 people? should they make it in a Shtibel with Pickles and Crackers which Ballroom would be cheaper? every shaliach pays for his table of Gevirim

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

"using your "logic," Yossi, I guess three quarters of Lakewood is in the same boat with me and Like Whatever..."

I am a Lakewooder. And I can tell you that 99% of Lakewood thinks that Agudah is totally irrelevant. To combat that, Agudah tried to get young guys to speak by round table panels and the like. Which is how they ended up with Avi Schron by a round table, a young snook, who while a fine well meaning budding Asken, would be no where without his family’s money and name

shelo asani chareidi said...

You people seem incapable of understanding that it is possible not to think that a given movement is the samech mem aleyn without being a card carrying member. On this blog anyone who isn't a frothing at the mouth lubavitch hater is accused of meshichism and any one who isn't malshin Zweibel at every opportunity must be a kool-aid sipping agudist.

Sometimes I think I should say my commenting handle with shem umalchus every morning.

Anonymous said...

"Rav Belsky is a tremendous gaon, but he's a political hack"
what subjects does he teach? Lomdus is not his field, maybe halacha? he is good at producing Hetierim, is he educating a new genaration of Heteirim for rent rabonim?

evanstonjew said...

The political function of the Agudah remains alive and well in Israel within the umbrella party UTJ. The advocacy of Orthodox social welfare interests remains viable around the world.

Back in Europe the Agudah was also a way of uniting Orthodox living in Western Europe with their brethren in E. Europe. And until today some of the most loyal Agudah people are to be found in the children of Frankfort and the Orthodox of Zurich and London. The complaint voiced here and elsewhere is that the Agudah is no longer representative of the many branches of Orthodoxy. If you are 22 and in Lakewood or a graduate of Brisk or a citizen of KY your identity is secure without any outside help. But these same fineshmekers when they leave NY, suddenly begin to appreciate Agudah more. It is of absolute importance that there be centers of heimish Orthodoxy around the country other than the Chabad House. Like so many institutions the day you destroy Agudah, and this is certainly a strong possibility, will be the day everyone is looking for a replacement that would serve a similar unifying role. The Gerer Rebbe and the C.C. agreed to form a political party with R.Yaakov Rosenheim not because of the spiritual needs of Ger and Radin but because of the needs of those on the periphery. And in the end everyone benefitted.

LikeWhatever said...

EvanstonJew. I like your comments. You think out of the box.

Maybe once Agudah is destroyed a new more tuned-into-reality movement will evolve to replace it.
Yeridah Letzorach Aliya

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Sandro Heckler