Tuesday, January 12, 2010

ידינו לא שפכו - עינינו לא ראו - אזניהם להם ולא ישמעו

Photo source

So you're waiting to hear what I have to say about the Asoroh B'Teves eaters, as if it's only mine and Lubavitch's problem. OK. I can understand that. You also probably think that I'll do one of several things: 1) defend them and say that they did nothing wrong because it really is Yemos HaMoshiach and the fasts were annulled. 2) They're only a couple of meshugenes who were excommunicated by Chabad, so the book is closed on them. 3) Decide that the Vaboylniker was right along and leave Chabad once and for all. 4) I can bury my head in shame and never talk to you guys again. 5) I can blame the guys McKareved them or ignored them when they were dancing on the streets of Melbourne since G-d knows when. And the list goes on. The point is that this a terrible development, anyway you spin it. I won't ignore it, nor will I wipe my hands of it, because as a Lubavitcher I feel somewhat responsible. I feel like had we all not ignored these crazies and not allowed them to parrot sichos without understanding, that maybe this never would've happened. We gave boors like these two too much freedom, we were afraid to alienate them by guiding them, so we left them to their devices, maybe because we never believed it would go this far.

Part of the personality of machlokes is that it takes its toll where once least expects it. In the case of Lubavitch, where the machlokes is basically dormant, save for a few flare-ups here and there, the toll is that people think that what the meshugoyim do is not so terrible. The fact that there's no outcry tells the youngsters that it's OK. (The same goes for other infractions; we think that since there's no outcry that we agree to what's going on. The problem is as follows: We all know that most of the big askonim are also the ones that have issues with such matters - Leib Tropper being the most recent example - so nobody wants make it known that he has issues.) In the case of the Australian yahoos one wants to blame the establishment there for not putting its foot down long ago, for sort of encouraging them by not discouraging them. For putting politics - very petty politics, to boot - before reason and for allowing it to goon despite not really believing it. In other words Meshichism in Australia is all politics, no real belief in it. It's hard for me to point fingers when I'm 12000 miles away, but I speak to people there very often and that's the general consensus. Then there's the nutjob in Spain, who seems to be on a very long acid trip, but he too has a video camera and an internet connection, VeDal.

photo from ASJ

The mere fact that the guy with the long white beard was quoting Rabbi G at the outset of the clip, and basically used him - albeit posthumously - as the springboard for his hideous deeds, tells us that there was a Jewish soul that could've been "saved." Saved from transgressing, that is. I realize that RYDG was not well the last few years of his life, but a man with his experience should recognize a problem when he sees it or hears of it. These people should've been reined in a long time ago. There also the fact that even the cherem was posted all over is not specific - it does not name names - and from what I understand they do not plan on expelling the children from the Chabad mosdos, apparently the kids are not to blame for their parents... That tells people that they're not as serious as they should be about it. Don't get me wrong, the current Rov is a huge T"C and frum almost vi a misnaged, but it's the politics again that's rearing its ugly head. Somehow, by admitting guilt here he'll have caved to the "antis," וזאת לא יעשו, not for any reason, even if the whole Chabad will go down (or up) in flames.

So what can we do about it? I'm not sure, I never claimed to have the answers, but one thing is for sure: LOTS of Bittul will be necessary. People who cannot stand the sight of each other because of previous disagreements will have to sit down and wrack their brains. This will be the ultimate litmus test to see whether or not you care about the Rebbe, זי"ע and the future of his monumental work - and the work of the six Rebbes previous - or you just talk the talk and do what's convenient for you. The old excuse of "they hate us anyway" and "they knocked us when we started Mivtza Tefillin" won't cut either. We're talking about families that will be completely lost very soon if an end is not put to this NOW. If that's not enough motivation maybe the fact that guys like Harry and Scotty and licking their lips and jumping for joy is what will light a fire under your feet. As impure and wrong a motive as that is, it's still better than inaction. But something must be done immediately! Not next week or month or by the next kinus hashluchim have a closed session about it. ACTION NOW, before it's too late. And yes, eating on fasts (Briskers not withstanding) and saying the shem Hameforash is already just about too late.


Faish said...

I am shocked.Really and truly.
I've been around from the Tzemach days and cannot recall one time (!)that you were prepared to show one morsel of introspection when it came to Lubavitch.
In fact I suspected that maybe really and truly they had reprogrammed your brain so terribly that whenever it came to Chabad it went into idiot mode.

As someone who knows Chabad well, learns(is me'ayan is a more accurate term) the Rebbes Sichos and have a passion for Lubavitch history, despite being a Menaged and knows the problems and dangers of Chabad theology, especially latter day I was still shocked by this Yoel Krauss! This is something that someone following history had to know would have to happen,still until it hits you in the face it does not register.
This guy has a whole bunch of videos, one for example where he "explains" why today its proper to lay tefillin on a young child.Krauses video is much more terrifying than the Aussie wierdos, firstly because he actually was an "official' Shaliach of the Meshichsts, who have started their own Shlichus program and are quite succesful.(Seems that even they have cut him off thankfully)
He is young, energetic and makes sense in a twisted kind of way for sure. I don't know if anyone realized but on his "kidush" of asoro beteives he mentions that it's three years since this asora beteives feast Was done in 770!
(I guess it was a small group of ladies in a side room)

cali rabbi said...

I see you pulled my comment.
What was wrong with it?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

rewrite it without the name of that site and maybe...

despite the fact that you added nothing to the point of the post here.

cali rabbi said...

You yourself mentioned "that site",what do you want from me?
I think that I did add something.That Rabbi Telsner is a Meshichist and signed a Yechi proclamation and that all "those sites" are going to make tzimmes out of this.
In other words what's going to happen is that instead of three goons in Melbourne being in trouble the chief rabbi will be on the hot seat,so I asked what was he thinking?

berl, crown heights said...

"I feel like had we all not ignored these crazies and not allowed them to parrot sichos without understanding, that maybe this never would've happened."

I think you are forgetting that we live in the free world and not in shtetl ruled by the kehilloh. There is NOTHING you can do to stop these people from starting their own cults. You have nothing over their head: they do not care if you do not accept them, ostracize them, etc.

The real problem in this incident – as I see it – is that Rabbi Telsner is himself a meshichist (as our enemies have correctly noted) and his response was that of a meshichist.

Instead of worrying about a handful of retards eating on 10 of Teves, he should be asking himself, "What lead to this travesty?" Instead of this cheirem, he should have publicly declared something along these lines:

"We have now seen with great clarity what the seemingly innocuous expressions of our hopes and feelings regarding the identity of moshiach have lead to, r"l! We are guilty of causing a terrible bizzui Talmid Chochom – our Rebbe. Therefore: we will no longer permit and tolerate ANY pronouncements about the Rebbe as moshiach in our synagogues and schools! No longer will "yechi" signs and "yechi" chanting be permitted in our synagogues and schools! No longer will those sporting any kind of "yechi" attire be allowed in our synagogues and schools! We do not know what G-d's plan for the coming of Moshiach is, nor are we commanded to dwell on his identity. But we remain steadfastly reliant on his speedy arrival. Our job today – as in the past – remains focused on continuing the Rebbe's holy work of spreading the wellsprings of Torah and Chasidus with Ahavas Yisoel far and wide."

Unfortunately, such statement DID NOT come forth from Rabbi Telsner. Apparently, he feels that these lunatics have sprung on their own, out of some magical vacuum, and all he needs to do is put them in some cherem and all will be fine. Well, all is not fine! The root of the problem was NOT addressed. Worse, the good rabbi simply gave these lunatics free international publicity they would otherwise never get without his stupid cheirem.

Yes, Chabad Australia is in good hands. Not!

shelo asan said...

"3) Decide that the Vaboylniker was right along and leave Chabad once and for all. "

All evidence seems to be pointing in this direction

Gerer said...

Every Chabatzker is a Meshichist - they come out of the closet only upon ensuring that there will be no financial con$equence$.

Yisroel said...

Ich chap a tzitter!
I agree with you.Fully.For once.I mean even the biggest Snag could not have said it better.It scares me.Have I also become a harsh an unfeeling person or are the facts so clear that your conclusion is unavoidable?

david said...

Lubavitch is starting to get it.

Ma Rabbi said...

Why call them Lubavitchers? The Rebbe himself said at a Farbrengan that I was present at, that anyone who does not follow Shulchan Aruch is NOT a Lubavitcher. These people are a few BT weirdos who have not learned and have not studied Torah. They are probably mentally unbalanced. They certainly do NOT represent me or Lubavitch.

Anonymous said...

I am no Moshiacist, but I don't see why meshichisim is guilty on every lunatics that goes beserk,
their are many people that twisted Toras Hashem benigleh ubenister,in every shape and form. The early maskilim as Shir,Shadal, Besomim rosh etc..were talmidie chachomim muvhakim and a lot of people on the other side didn"t match their geoinois, but they did with the Torah Keoila Al Richom, and the same is said with Toras Nister, it was twisted many times by certain people that went off the derech. So will someone blame the Ari Hakodesh for opening himself for misinterpretations of any sort. Or the midrashim or agadah for being a source for maskilic ideologies. This people have to be dealt according to what torah paskened on people that are not following shulchan oruch.
Disclaimer, I don't believe the Rebbe is Moshiach since the Rambam and the Rebbe claims he has to be from the living and I don't buy all the Midrashic sources

Anonymous said...

I love the way all the Chabad haters are coming out of the woodworks,

yonasan said...

Ma Rabbi
Nobody was saying they represented you.What was said was that it appears that a very crazy and scary element is emerging and outgrowth of the Meshichist philosophy.
AND Tzigs exact point was to say that we cannot continue to discount this .

Yehuda said...

I respectfully concur with the people who all along thought that Horav Shach was right.

Anonymous said...

So what are you people recommending that tomorrow morning Krinsky and Shemtov sould go down in 770 and tear off all the banners, and fight for the next 50 years with mass arrest on both sides, with a big media circus, with all the misnagdim having fun on the sidelines. Reb Yoel gave already interviews against them and a Kol Koreh was already out too. So whats the point to fight against them, they are irrational suicidal elements, this guy Kraus looks stoned, probably Marijuana is legal in Spain already.

YItchok moshe said...

Honestly what did you expect ? After years of idoloizing the Rebbe with Moshiach chants etc. obviously some lunaticts are gonna take it a step further !!!
Sadly Lubavitch has been doomed since the very first Moshiach chant back in the days that the rebbe was still live & kicking !!! That is exactly what teh vaboilniker was scared of - the dangerous messianic cult that has grown out of Lubavitch

berl, crown heights said...

anon 7:20:00 PM,

"Krinsky and Shemov" can't do anything.

But various "normal" meshichist rabbis can and must (but probably won't) do as I described above.

berl, crown heights said...

(paradoxically, it is the emergence of the various lunatic fringe elements from withing the meshichist movement [the yellow-flag "tzfatim", the bizarre "elokisten", the "women for geula", etc.] that have thus far been the most effective tool in turning the rank-and-file Lubavitchers off the entire meshichist cause).

Joe in Australia said...

With respect, R' Hirshel -

There's a limit to what you can do to adults. These guys were thrown out of shul. How else could they have been reined in? Beatings? We don't live in the shtetl any more. Lots of people have tried reasoning with them, but they are not exactly normal. In fact, I believe that the attention is precisely what they seek. The niddui is more an expression of social disapproval than an attempt to get them to do teshuva; the community has given up on them.

That being said, we should not ignore the way their insanity is expressed. I believe that Meshichism attracted them precisely because it values emotion over intellectual commitment. This is of course contrary to Chabad teaching, and it's not surprising that a hybrid of emotional anti-intellectualism combined with Chabad-style dedication should have effects like these.

As I said on another blog, it looks to me as if some of the old-style Chabad Meshichists here in Melbourne have been embarrassed by these fellows, and I hope that the lesson will be retained.

Anonymous said...

They don't listen to nobody, take for instance Reb Nachman Shapiro of CH, in the world of the insane, he is relatively sane, would never be able to stop them, they are irrational lunatics

Anonymous said...

Yitzchok Moshe
maybe when the Rebbe was alive,the Rebbe was realy the potential(Becheskas) Moshiach ? did Reb Akiva do the wrong thing by proclaiming on Bar Kochva ? The Rambam believes he did the right thing halachicaly,

Sam said...

I have given up on Lubavitch.
I very quietly left Crown Heights three years ago and moved to Florida.
We daven at a Young Israel, south of Miami and the kids go to the local day school.I am not vocal about it and don't get into arguments with my family about it.
The only problem in Florida is the recession has hit very hard and the winter has been quite chilly by Florida standards.I know of another three families who have made the same kind of move.No door slamming just a quiet retreat

michel said...

R'Hirshel, do you know Rabbi Telsner?
What is his backround?Lubavitch or Litvish?
What did he do before he became Dayan in Australia?

Aussie said...

Great post Hirschel and excellent comment from Berl. As someone who lives in Melbourne, and has observed this kehilla and it's Moshiachist leaders for many years, this will simply fall on deaf ears.

It has become so deeply inculcated that the only real Lubs are moshichisten, that there is no way for them to turn back now. In fact, I would say that you will not find a single frum kid here that is not a Moshiachist.

michel said...

Do you know Rabbi Telsner?
Can you give some bio on him?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...


I'm glad I shocked you. Well, not really. I have stated many times that it's not that I think that all is well, it's just that I don't wanna do it here.

יחי ההבדל

levi said...

I guarantee everyone that nothing what so ever will change.
To little, to late and we all know where the real problem lies and nobody has the mesiras nefesh to take them on.I personally think the time has come for a split, like George W said: "You are either with us or against us"

faish said...

We probably need to discuss this some time because you always seem to be nitpicking about minor issues elsewhere while on the home turf ess brent a fire.
So I"m slightly reassured that at least I haven't wasted time arguing with a total....

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...


Rabbi Tzvi Hirsh Telsner is the son of Rabbi Dovid Shraga Telsner, who passed away in 1992. RDST was not a Lubavitcher, I believe he was some sort of official in the Mizrachi movement. Rabbi TH Telsner joined Lubavitch as a bachur and married the daughter of Reb YD Groner, the head of Lubavitcher institutions in Melbourne for 50 years. RTHT was a Rov in London for over 30 years and a teacher in London's Lubavitch institutions until his move to Melbourne to replace his FIL. He is a TC of the highest caliber.

Friendly Anonymous said...

From Harry's Blog: "I am very close with many Lubavitchers. I count many of them among some of my closest friends. I Daven with them every single day. They are some of the finest and kindest people I know. I am therefore loathe to criticize them....even the most rabid anti-Meshichists in Lubavitch harbor some form of belief in his messiahship".

I feel the same way as Harry. Meshichisten are a friendlier bunch, and much more enjoyable to be around.

nahare upashte said...

i would like to make the following observations:
1. we find often that you have fringe groups that do not represent the jewish group they come from. 2 examples: recently they made a movie on homosexuals in litvishe yeshives. as a result there was a flood of comments that yeshives and yeshiva system breed homosexuals. i was flooded with questions after the few meshugoyim went to iran from people that assumed that they represent chassidim, chareydim etc etc. i explained that you always have meshugoyim who act without any rabinnic leadership or authority and make their own rules and no one can stop them.
2. the lubavitcher rebbe repeated on countless occasions both during his talks and in letters that its impossible to be a chossid and indeed a frumer yid without basic all ones acions and decisions on aproval from rabonim. he said many times that shulchon oruch has to remain the basis of everything. he didnt allow anyone to make any pshtlech from his answers and letters and to consult a rov for a practical aplication. these people are condemmed by the most extreme meshichistn but i know who they are from my friends. they are farbissene individuals with rebelliou nature who are thriving on the attention they are receiving and from the status of victims and martyrs. if not for moshiach they would find some other wild behaviourto further these agendas. i also know from a reliable source that with one exception, every other person who were lured by them to attend that chilul Hashem meal had charote and spoke to their respectives mashpiim and rabonim how to correct what they have done and cut their ties with these 2 instigators.
3. any holy area in torah could breed negative results and dissapontments. nevertheless gdley yisroel never dissisted from messianic fervour even though potential it could be a yenike lechitzonim. someone mentioned that despite the fact that Bar Kochba never became moshiach, the rambam quotes rf akivas acceptance of him as a halachic application of acepting chezkas moshiach. habsai zvi brought devestating results but gedoley yisroel continued to identify potential moshiach ( look in orach chaim hakodosh refering to himself as moshiach, talmidey reb shachne, the remo's shver referring to him as moshiach also referred to in beis shmuel's sheimes gitin and countless other examples. its hard to find gedolim who instigated messianic fervor more than the yismach moishe, the minchas elozerand the chofetz chaim but they were not afraid of repocussions.
may we merit moshiach

s said...


why move to Florida? it seems like you were stam out to have a good time, otherwise you'd move to Flatbush or Lakewood, not become a MO.

Anonymous said...

The amazing thing is not Tzig's introspection. Rather, the amazing thing is that the Ungarishe Lubavitcher Tzig knows that Briskers do not fast on Asarah beTeves. How did he meet such insiders of Brisk to learn this great secret?

An Ailmesher said...

Come on Lubabs. You consider yourselves the smartest people around but you ignore the obvious.

1 - The Rebbe dropped hints that he was moshiach. He did not protest when the women gave him the petition that asked that he reveal himself as moshiach. All this is on a video clip on the internet for everyone to see. Imagine what the Gerrer Rebbe, the Beis Yisroel would have done if presented with such a petition? I'm sure he would have smacked the presenter in the face, although not in this case since she was a doos.

2 - The Rebbe could have stopped all moshiach speculation by saying that he was not Moshiach. He could have said explicitely, "I forbid all this talk". No Lubavitcher would have dared disobey an explicit order of the Rebbe.

3 - Hirshel, I'm still waiting for you or any other Lubavitcher to say these words 'The Rebbe is not Moshiach'. Until I hear those words, I will assume that you are all moshiachsten.

4 - How about R. Yoel's talk recently that nothing changed on 3 Tammuz?

It's sad to see how the Chassidus of the Alter Rebbe has come to such an ignominious end

An Ailmesher said...

s had brought a good point. Those that leave Lubavitch become Modern Orthodox at best. I've never come across a lapsed Lubavitcher that moved to Lakewood and sat himself in the Yeshiva to learn a whole day. I don't know if any Lubavitcher has become another type of chosid either, although some BTs used to become arein gechapt to Bobov in the old CH days.

nahare upashte said...

ailmesher missed the whole point of what i said. the rebbe never gave any hints ch"v that the shulchon oruch can be tampered with. on the cotrary. the 2 meshugoyim are a fringe element wo dont rpresent anyone includig lubavitch anymore than the homosexuals represent yeshivishe bochrim or the few meshugoyim who went to iran represent satmar toldos aron, chassidm , chareydim etc.
when you say that the rebbe should have denied that he is moshiach its your boych sore not based on haloche. there were plenty of gedoyley yisroel that hinted or didnt argue with the notion that they were ( potential ) moshiach ( i have given acouple of names in my previous post but one can give much more). the problem with people who attack behaviour that they dont like when there are no sources to condemn it, it gives meshugoyim who take tamper with haloche more power because there is so much unfounded condemnation, the one which should be stesed becomes botl beshishim.

Nathan said...

Re s and ailmesher:

Generally, Lubavitchers have a deep enough ideological base that those who leave, rarely do so for reasons of ideology and conviction (although there are such as well). The proof is simple: while you cite those who leave Lubavitch, naturally dropping their observance level in the process, a respectable number of mechubadike Jews from other kraizen have moved to Lubavitch, and are not known for having become more frei as a result; on the contrary. והמפורסמים אין צריכים ראי'ה.

Anonymous said...

1. Unless you doven at Yeshivah in Melbourne, you cannot fully, fully understand how this came to be. 2. These two guys are very nice people who have been coaxed and encouraged and inculcated for years - another word for brainwashing, r"l not dissimilar to the way Muslim terrorists are brainwashed from infancy. 3. The 7 metre "Yechi" sign inside Yeshivah Shule says that the Rebbe zt'l is Moshiach. If so, then Moshiach has come and Purim is a Yom Tov and we can eat on the 10th Teves. Tell me where I am wrong. 4. It's great putting these 'brainwashed by Yeshivah' nice people into Cherem, but the saying and singing of Yechi will continue and further divide the Shule so that we will have more episodes like on Friday night a few months ago 5. Is the next step a large picture of the Rebbe zt'l on the Aron Hakodesh?

Anonymous said...

The problem is more widespread thwn you accept. 1.It's not a "just few guys" who believe this crap, it's a large percentage. 2.It's not superficial, it's embedded in lubavitch philosophy for the past 30 years. 3.There are many, while not as bad as this group, are still moshichist-lite. 4.There is too much to lose by distancing anyone who believes anything other than the truth how it is limateh measara tefachim.

You are the hardcore crack addict admitting to a marijuana problem, the first step in solving any problem is admitting the full extend of the problem. A half of admission like yours, is not going to cut it.

It's gotten so bad over the past 18 years, that anything short of the Rebbe coming back to life, and correcting the problem himself...

Anonymous said...


Anonymous said...

few BT weirdos

yea and its muuch better that the Gezhe FFBs shaved their beards and are MOs or worse fryed out entirely, took off the shaitel etc.. etc..

Minkatcher Aynikle said...

The Jewish People have had some great things:
1. Torah
2. Loshon Hakodesh
3. Eretz Yisroel
4. Moshiach

The Christians came and stole our Torah, the Maskilim came and stole our language, the Tzionim came and stole our land, and now the Chabad/Meshichistin have come and stolen Moshiach.

Friendly Anonymous said...

Where is Aizik Balbin when we need him? hopefully in the outback enjoying the Summer weather.

berl, crown heights said...

Minkatcher Aynikle,
mi'ken shein meinen... till now you lived with moshiach and now you have nothing to live for. nebach.

Anonymous said...

I think you took a cheap shot at Rabbi Maryles, in fact I know it. I am positive he dislikes having to criticize Lubavitch. If guys like R' Harry didn't bring it up, you would not be called to action as you are now. You would have let this blow over like everything else dealing with the meshichists.
You should ask him for mechila.

psol said...

I am an irregular commenter here, who is one of the anti-chabad brigade for a number of reasons, amongst them the potential disastrous outcome of the "Rebbe is Moshiach" theology.

I have to congratulate Tzig and berl for their courageous and perceptive posts about what needs to be done, and how to do it.

It may stick in your gullets to take praise from a "chabad basher", but then again it sticks in my gullet to give you praise!

Milhouse said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

here come the apologists....

Anonymous said...

Who does that?

Litvaks try to. See all those schools that were not allowed to open these past years since they would not take everyone.
What city was that? Not Crown Hts?!

Milhouse said...

As I understood it, those schools were excluding kids because they considered them undesirable for some reason, perhaps a bad influence, not because of what their parents had or hadn't done.

Dov said...

On another site you are saying very strange stuff?Why?
I also think you did not get what the previous commenter was alluding to.He was NOT talking about CH, rather about a place south of there.
There is an interesting thing about your personality, besides for being quite radical once you have a negia a bias, all rationality gets thrown out of the window and you will take up the strangest cases.You actually defended Rabbi Riskin in his yoshke rant!And you've said it before.I"m kind of scratching my head how someone who can make good valid points, can lose it so badly when he is biased.Can't you forget for a second where you stand and view things objectively?

Milhouse said...

Dov, that comment was incomprehensible. Please try again, in English.

Anonymous said...

I think Chabad is in a geder of Goinev Min Haganev, since the Munkatcher stole Moshiach along time, he was paranoid that the sitra achra is out to get him in the form of a black dog

Yankel said...

Millhouse - you made a few points and they are all rubbish. You say these guys were thrown out a year ago, but for the previous 20 years were they encouraged slowly slowly to become who they are now. These people are not unbalanced. They have been brainwashed by the people around them and have now gone the 'extra yard' 'the 101 times' - a logical and correct step for them. Does that enormous sign INSIDE Shule mean anything? Do you know the translation and meaning.

Then you condescendingly mention two names - whatever for? You mention (a poor) one has a grooming problem - whatever for? You say the other is annoying - whatever for? I don't think the Rebbe zt'l would think anyone was annoying and he was the one standing for 12 hours not you. All you may have to do is say hello to him - or gasp - even give him a lift. WOW such mesiros nefesh. But you are better than the Rebbe I guess. And I do know where you were going with it and it was totally unnecessary to embarass people in public whilst you stay anonymous and bad-mouth others.

Balbin where are you.

Milhouse said...

Sorry, Tzig, you don't know what you're talking about here. This has nothing to do with meshichistn, and there's nothing that could have been done to stop these people. They are simply mentally unbalanced. Nobody "allowed" them to "parrot sichos without understanding", or "gave" them "too much freedom"; they already had all the freedom they needed simply by being adults in a free country. Which "establishment" exactly do you imagine "encourag[ed] them by not discouraging them"? They were kicked out of the Yeshivah over a year ago, when they became disruptive, but before then what do you think should have been done about them, and why? They should have been "saved", and "reined in"? How, exactly?

Do you think Lubavitch should stop welcoming crazy people? Whom else should R Telsner kick out? Poor S, who sits in the back of the shul and as far as I can tell hasn't uttered a word in years to anybody but Hashem, and has problems with personal grooming, but always seems to be on the right page in the siddur? Or N, who's annoying but means well? Or any of a dozen others who call Yeshivah home because we have no need to make them unwelcome? Only when it becomes impossible to put up with someone do we reluctantly tell them to go elsewhere. That should be the way in every kraiz, and it's definitely the way in Lubavitch. For that matter, that's how it is in my MO shul in NYC; we have all sorts of people who are a few pieces of herring short of a kiddish, but they're still yidden so we make allowances.

And expelling children from school?! Are you crazy? Who does that? What possible justification could there be for it? The psak din doesn't name names; why should it? If you don't know them already, then it's not shayach to you. Those who were likely to count them in a minyan know who they are, and now know that they are not to.

Milhouse said...

Yankel, you're right, I've deleted it and reposted it without names. But the two crazies were not groomed for years; if that were so, why is it only them, and not a whole crowd?

As for the sign, what's it got to do with this? It proclaims a perfectly acceptable belief, which is held by many people in the shul, who will be offended and upset if it's taken down. I don't agree with it and you don't agree with it, but those who do are still members of our community, they're still of the best of Lubavitch, and it's unfair to blame this on them or on the sign. They're not the ones breaking shulchon oruch, and that is the problem, not unconventional beliefs.

Isaac Balbin said...

Friendly Anonymous: I am here. You must have missed my comments under the R' Riskin post.

Berger said...

"As for the sign, what's it got to do with this? It proclaims a perfectly acceptable belief"

I think herein lies the problem with Lubavitch.Even a guy who claims to be an Anti, thinks that Meshichism is perfectly acceptable.Do ligt dr hunt bagroben.I don't see anything changing unfortunately, even when the next crazy act which is bound to come, comes along

nahare upaste said...

millhouse is one persn that makes sense on this post. there are 2 simple points 1. is to distinguish between people who may have beliefs you dont likebut which dont contradict the torah and 2. if you make a huge deal about the 2 craizies you are playing into their hands and do exactly what they want. they are not a product of any grooming , any encourragement. the only grooming and encouragemnet you can do for them is to make a big deal out of them. the best tghing would have been just to make a statement that hey do not reprewnt any group in lubavitch whatsover and thats it. they would love if you will scream at them , throw them out of shul, their kids out of cheider or even bit them up but to do it would be ludicrous

Anonymous said...

Minkatcher Aynikle

where did you take you gedank

ser past far the heiliger rov an einikel

(my zaida was a talmid of the heiliger ruv)

Isaac Balbin said...

[My response is too long and is posted in parts]

Part 1:

Dear all,

I have been reluctant to weigh in heavily on this issue on this blog as I understood it was an opportunity for Chabad Chassidim to read an introspect. Invariably, the issue will attract those who dislike Chabad and do so for reasons that transcend the "Rebbe is Moshiach" issue and indeed Torah. For such people the "Rebbe is Moshiach" issue, be it in Melbourne, Spain or elsewhere is an opportunity to further an old agenda of ostracising Chabad because Chabad does not tow the line, makes inroads into their territory, and refuses to work under the umbrella of a quasi Daas Torah, be it Aguda or something else.

I have also been reluctant to weigh in heavily on this blog because of my respect for R' Groner z"l and the current Dayan of the Yeshiva, R' Telsner. I will not discuss R' Groner as he is in Olam HoEmes in a special place reserved for Tzadikim of the highest order. His accomplishments were simply astronomical.

I have a special place in my heart for R' Telsner, the current Dayan. I have a natural attraction towards Talmidei Chachomim of a very high caliber. R' Telsner is one of those people, with a very high level of B'kiyus. It is not a coincidence that the Hungarian Charedim in Melbourne continue to invite him to speak at their Torah events. R' Telsner happens to also be one of the few people in Melbourne who both knows and appreciates the gamut of the gadlus of the Rav. When he was a youngster, he personally heard the Shiurim of the Rav and inherited a love for the Rav from his father. R' Telsner's father's connection to the Rav can be seen if you open up the English version of the famous "Chamesh Drashos" of the Rav. R' Telsner (and his Rebetzin) is also a man of chessed. They don't have a car, but I know that they turn up on the door step of people who are in need at all times. I could elaborate, but this should suffice.

R' Telsner is also a Meshichist. He is a theologically based Meshichist. He should not be put on the same page as brainwashed am-horatzim who infamously and illegally published their video on youtube. I say illegally, because some of the sad participants in that Chilul Hashem are now threatening to sue the ringleader, Zelig Rosenfeld, for publishing the video as Zelig did not obtain their permission. But I digress.

R' Telsner inherited a sign at the back of the Shule: for bad or for worse. His brother-in-law, R' Chaim Tzvi ensured that the sign was put back up one day after somebody took it down---bigger, better, and stronger. From day one, he has been between a rock and a hard place, even though he shares a Meshichist philosophy. Like his position, he inherited the sign and all that goes with it. Even today, there are people who don't accept him simply because he wasn't "elected" to his position. Life cannot be easy for him in such an environment. However, he is a Chasid, and he continues his Avodah with great dedication. Even those who didn't like the process of his ascension, have to admit that he is completely dedicated to the job in an environment where an unelected executive pulls him every which way.

Isaac Balbin said...

[Part 2]

The reason why this group of Meshichists perpetrated their Am Horatzis-based Nevoloh has, in my opinion, less to do with either R' Groner or R' Telsner than it does with the second tier of Rabonim in Chabad in Melbourne. I suspect that this transcends Melbourne, and is true the world over.

These guys were taught. They were taught by extreme Meshichisten, including those who continue their outrageous ways in the Israeli backpackers Chabad House. They were taught by extreme Meshichisten who are Rabbis in old Age homes. Perhaps most importantly, they were allowed to continue their Meshugas by the Hamon Am who tolerated and in some cases ignited their Meshugass. Rabbis and Mashpiim in the School's Mesivta are extreme Meshichisten. They actively encourage chanting and sloganeering. The Kollel Minyan is a hot bed of Meshichists. At least one of the Shochtim is an avowed Meshichist who said Yechi under his Chuppa. I am not sure if he said it before or after saying "Harei At Mekudeshes". The regular School minyan in the morning allows the boys to yell "Yechi" at the end of each Shachris. I offered to debate a Mashpia of the Mesivta in front of his class on Meshichism but was rebuffed. Instead, he privately told his Talmidim that I was wrong etc. Chabad Youth Camps in Melbourne tolerate the chanting of Yechi during davening, and of course, the usual trance dance chant. It is obvious to anyone that over the years, the process of brain wash is continuing unabated. It masquerades under the guise of hiskashrus. Somehow, the view that you can't be a good Chasid who is a true Mekushar unless you are a loud Meshichist with all the trappings, has enveloped and hijacked the minds of otherwise good people. People can only say "Gimel Tamuz". They can't say Zecher Tzadik Livrocho or Zechuso Yogen Oleynu and they continue to print Sichos with "Shlita" even though they know full well that it is very very lame to claim that the original print has't been altered.

I am stating the obvious, and no, this is not an invitation for Misnagdim to sink their boots in. Hirshel, I happen to know that R‫'‬ Harry Maryles agonised over his post for days, and R' Gil chose not to highlight the issue to date. I don't think either of these people are Chabad haters or Misnagdim unlike some of your masked commenters.

Isaac Balbin said...

[Part 3]

I read Rabbi Dr Berger's book and don't agree with him. I do not think he hates Chabad either. I think he is well intentioned and truly expresses a theological conundrum that bothers him.

I have been accused of suffering delusions of grandeur, but not withstanding that, I will express my opinion.

I feel that all signs should be removed. They should be removed if only as a Gzerah against creating the types of Golems and Dybuks that were on the video, and the concomitant Chilul Hashem. I feel that all sloganeering and associated paraphernalia should be banned from Shule and Mosdos. All pictures, even those at a back wall, should be removed from an area where people daven or learn. Have them in your house or in a corridor by all means.

For those of us who are not Chassidim of Chabad, I feel we should accept that a Jew having an opinion that the late Rebbe MIGHT be Moshiach is acceptable. I say MIGHT because that word implies that he might NOT be Moshiach. I can live with that theologically.

I encourage those who WANT the Rebbe to be Moshiach to continue to do so. Do it through ACTION. Chanting, prancing, billboards, yellow flags, pins and all that chitzoniyus should be retired. Speaking with the Eybishter is through Tfillah and the Matbeah of Chachomim. Shmoneh Esreh contains some fantastic paragraphs that one can focus on with Hislahavus and Daven for an extra 20 minutes over, if it truly means so much. Try Es Tzemach Dovid and Veliyrusholayim Ircha for a start, and if that's not good enough, get out my S'fard Siddur and say the longer Yechadesheyhu at Rosh Chodesh Benching and yell it out!

Please, let's not over focus on Melbourne. I assume the issues above play themselves out in Kehillos across the globe, with different names and circumstances. Yes, there are challenges for the Melbourne Kehila, but in the words of the famous book, it's "a flat earth".

We have 13 Ani Ma'amins. Let us not allow Meshichisten to continue to promote a 14th Ani Ma'amin.

Joe in Australia said...

These guys were taught.

They weren't taught to eat on fast days, heaven forfend. And I've heard Alex arguing more than once - it is his nature to believe that he is right and that his interlocutor is wrong. I'm sure that many of the Messianics smirked when they saw him discomfit someone with more traditional beliefs, but it's clear that he and Zelig developed their views without the guidance of others in the Yeshiva center.

nahare upashe said...

yasher koyach to isaac balbin. whether you agree with everything he says, his tone and tolerance is something hat most on his blog can learn from.

Isaac Balbin said...

Joe. I observed Alex and Zelig being inculcated on a daily basis by two quite radical Meshichist Rabonim over an extended period of time at the crack of dawn. I will tell you off line who they were if you are curious but only if you are motivated to speak with those Mashpiim and ask them for some answers. I spent some time trying to convince these two Mashpiim to undo the damage two years ago. It was too late. That being said, I agree that Alex is certainly a difficult man to communicate with in a meaningful fashion, especially in the last few years when he stopped working and was over-occupied with only this one thing. Alex Leonard and Zelig Rosenfeld are completely driven, like automata. There is one psychiatrist who knows them quite well, and he asserts, though, that they are both quite "normal". Others suggest they have a form of "Jerusalem Syndrome".

If you feed people a very unbalanced diet, it is little wonder that they become malnourished in basic Jewish sustenance and make their own shakleh vetarye (based on English Sichos and Maamorim and Websites) and take that short step to eating on a taanis.

It is unfortunately true that this is not the first halachic infraction that Zelig and Alex have been involved with. It may be their first on the net, though.

Shulem said...

"Eliyahu wrote:

ha ha - same exact arguments from 1995.... except that I moved far away from Chabad and Crown Heights since then!"

This is a comment from here :http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=23618.

The post there deals with the cherem or the no cherem-but-shamta given out by R'Telsner.
All I can say to Hirshel is that it needed guts to come out with such a post and you are 100% right.

Anonymous said...

I forced my self to read all the 3 Megillas of Reb Issac of downunder, and I dont see where chabad is at fault for these stuborn lunatics, they are people that have no rational and noting stops them no Rebbe and no Rov., obviously chabad is at fault since they put the concept of Geula and Moshiach on the frontburner,but that was the Rebbes choice.

Anonymous said...

Isaac is 100% correct and unless you were in the Yeshivah Kollel and Shule for the last 20 years and watched the encouragement these guys got to say the Yechi's etc, to talk incessently about Mochiach's arrival, etc etc with the help of the big sign that we don't talk about out of respect, etc etc, then you cannot understand how this came about. Both Alex and Zelig are NICE GUYS who are quite normal, and are honestly doing what they have been brainwashed to do by the Rabbis at Yeshivah. If Moshiach is here then surely if follows that they can eat on the fast.

Just as it was a big mistake to give Rabbi Kramer a ticket overseas, the sign is also a big mistake.

Is Yeshivah the only Shule where Yechi is said? I know Rabbis Gutnick and Cohen won't allow it or anything to do with it.

Anonymous said...

I think that saying Yechi is the only way these people have to keep the Rebbe alive in their hearts and minds.

To relegate him as dead would make his shitas and , as those of previous Rebbes before him as irrelevant to the current youth who grew up after 3 Tamuz.

It was always argued that 'Dor Shvii' was different and that as
the Rebbe was alive he could change the shitas of previous Rebbes as being more relevant to us.

To admit the Rebbe is dead is to admit there was no succession plan and that Chabad put itself in a leaderless position from which there is no way back (I don't believe anyone can unify and get Chabad back to a single movement).

This in no way detracts from their good works but simply says the Rebbe left them without guidance as is evident by the fact that people refer to Igros and Sichas from which they infer what they think the Rebbe meant.....leading to normal Chabad and Leonard/Rosenfeld loonies who everyone in Melbourne knows were never particularly mekushar or knowledgable. I doubt they could read or translate the relevant Rambam or any other seforim written in loshen kodesh.

What Chabad must, but never will do is to admit the Rebbe made a mistake in leaving them with no succession plan and either split and divide assets as was done in other groups or fight and make themselves the laughing stock of the charedi world as they have done to date, not just by moshichists but by the fray out rate which far exceeds any other Charedi group... except for the Moshichists because they have something tangible to hold onto other than books......

the bigger picture said...

an anwer to the last anonymou:
as somebody who is in constant contact ith world at large ie the non religious jewish world, the modern orthodox, the chareidi world and the non jewish world ican say that with the exception of a very specific yeshivishe world lubavitch is by far the most reckoned with and respected jewish group. the problem with he yeshivise world is that they are so isolated and so proccuied with their perception with te jewish word that theysee everything from a very narrow view point. the shluchim of the chabad movement make a diference to the world today which transcends the petty discussions that occupy ths blog. even among all rounded chareidim chanad is much morerespected for the work they do. all this discussion on legacy, leadership, new rebe is so irrelavant to mot people because it ha no connection to real lifein the eyes of most shluchim's work and assistance to so many does make a difference. thats why i think hat when tzig ets so obsessed with 2 llonies in melbourne he is missing the point.

Isaac Balbin said...

I am not sure why people seem to think there was no plan. They seem to ignore the famous (but hidden for many years) bilti moogeh sicha that the LR said on Motzoei Shabbos after his wife was Niftar. Therein, it seemed to me that he clearly addressed what should happen should he pass onto עולם האמת. The LR talks about the Gemora on בואו נחשב חשבונו של עולם which I think is in בבא בתרא

I heard from someone that this Sicha was requested a number of times by the LR for checking but his secretaries "withheld" it from him and it remained unchecked. It is in תורת מנחם but out of order. At the same time, it is available online somewhere. I watched it online.

I am not acquainted with Sichos (aside from the odd Rashi Sicha which I enjoy). I'm sure some the erudite Chabad Chassidim who read this blog know the Sicha and the link. I can't remember why I know about this one.

I hope those who haven't seen it find it useful in the context.

Melbournian said...

>>1. Unless you doven at Yeshivah in Melbourne, you cannot fully, fully understand how this came to be. .... 3. The 7 metre "Yechi" sign inside Yeshivah Shule says that the Rebbe zt'l is Moshiach. If so, then Moshiach has come and Purim is a Yom Tov and we can eat on the 10th Teves. Tell me where I am wrong. ... Is the next step a large picture of the Rebbe zt'l on the Aron Hakodesh?

Why not ? We have the weekly vide of the rebbe there.And what about all those who have a picture of the rebbe inside their siddurim?

We REALLY need Moshiach!!

Isaac Balbin said...

The bigger picture wrote:

as somebody who is in constant contact ith world at large ie the non religious jewish world, the modern orthodox, the chareidi world and the non jewish world ican say that with the exception of a very specific yeshivishe world lubavitch is by far the most reckoned with and respected jewish group

I agree, and am at least as qualified.

the shluchim of the chabad movement make a diference to the world today which transcends the petty discussions that occupy ths blog. even among all rounded chareidim chanad is much morerespected for the work they do.

Transcends is the key word here. Your implication is that when people do lots of good, the bad is insignificant and "petty". That argument is a non-sequiter. It is like saying that a Kehilla like Ger that shields its child molesters, or ignores them, is absolved of responsibility because they are on the whole Shomrei Torah uMitzvos, learn Yerushalmi and tip the scales en masse to the good. To be sure, the case of molesters is not comparable to those overt meshichiten who display the trappings of antinomian actions. That being said, the Tzad Hashove is that you can't absolve a clear TOLERANCE for a crooked path because they also do good. It is a CROOKED path, and the responsibility lies with Chabad in the same way as the responsibility for people like Mondrowitz lies with the Gerrer Rebbe (who should have sent him packing to the States to face the music). Call me a Chatzuf for suggesting what a Rebbe should do, but you'll need to also quote me the chapter and verse in Shulchan Aruch which says I am not allowed to do so.

Bigger Picture: I agree with you in as much as we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water. However, the filthy bath water NEEDS to be thrown out. It isn't localised to one bath. It is everywhere. Some wash in it privately. Others do it on youtube.

Yesterday, I visited an old age home where 80% of the people who visit the shule are completely over botel. The Rabbi is a truly wonderful Shliach who I have lots of time for. A real ehrliche yid. Why, oh why, does he have to destroy his reputation and that of Chabad by his Yechi chant. He creates only two things: bad feelings towards chabad and the types of brainwashed people who post their chilul hashem on youtube. Do you think his achievements, both in the eyes of Hashem and the Hamon Am are less if he doesn't yell yechi to the deaf, mute and over botel?

What Narishkeit.

Don Chip said...

Yeshivah is the only shule in Melbourne that says Yechi and has a sign.

You have 4 groups. 1 - agree. 2 - don't agree but not upset. 3 - don't agree and don't really like it. 4 - those that have left.

I think you can debate until the cows come home, but the only change that will happen over the long term, is that 3 will become 4, and 2 will move to 3 then 4.

Group 1 will never change unless there is a Psak to end it all including yarmulkas, badges, flags etc and I don't think that will ever happen.

I will now stop wasting my time with this inyan and go and learn. Let me know in 10 years if I was right.

bigger picture said...

answer to isaac balbin.
i think that you misunderstood part of what i was saying.my comment was mainly addresed to those that keep on saying that chabad had lost the respect of the jwish world. what i was saying that mot of gthe jewish world knows chabad through shluchim in mumbay, small cities in america, australia etc. 95% of the discussions on this blog are irrelevant to them. i dont want to say in what capacity i am saying this but i am exposed to frume and not yet frume yiden from all krayzn and most have the utmost respect for chabad. the point you are bringing out has merits. i want to distinguish between people like the 2-3 guys who organised 10 teyves who dont represent anyone at all - no rov or mashpia would condone any behaviour which compromises shulchon oruch.the other people yo are talking about ( flags, yechi etc )maybe a bit in your face but ultimately if they are not doing anything against shulchon oruch how can we condemn them? dr berger wants to excomunicate them but then you have many anti zionist groups that will claim that we cant eat shchite or metzaref to a minyen a tzioini. we have to come to terms that there are different hashkofes among our people. many - some meshichistn, some breslovers, some tziyinim express their emune very publically. lets try to excercise tolerance even if some behaviour is not to our taste

Anonymous said...

If chabad does not believe in collective responsibility and are thereby washing their hands of people who eat on Asara Bteves, why did the Lubavich beis din with the consent of the Rebbe ban any food with a Satmar hechsher after what happened to R' Mendel Vechter (who for all his knowledge never really made it in the ranks of Chabad other than as a proof that Chabad is more intelectual that Satmar).

When Chabad does it 'it is only a few individuals' like when Rebbetzin Chana got bashed, but when Satmar does it there is collective responsibility ???

Isaac Balbin said...

Bigger Picture:

The people who yell, have flags etc etc are the ones who CREATE those who break Shulchan Aruch. This is my point. Do not be sanguine because of the numbers involved. We are in the early days. If the sloganeering, which as I understand was condemned by the LR if it drove ONE person away from learning Chassidus continues, there will be many more unpleasant outcomes.

Unfortunately, like many things the LR said, his Chassidim simply don't listen to him and are more "clever" taking their leaf from the R' Wolpos of this world, about whom the LR condemned!

How long till more and more people find learning Chassidus distasteful because of the sloganeering. You and I both know that many many people would be a whole lot happier if Chabad stuck to its raison d'être of יפוצו מעינתיך חוצה .... isn't THAT what's it's all about and what the LR lived for?

David said...

"R' Wolpos of this world, about whom the LR condemned!"

I see that even Volpe by you is a Reb.
I guess R'means very little.
If you are so adamant that "people who yell, have flags etc" create those who break Shulchan Oruch, why haven't you had a word with r'Telsner about his belief system??

Isaac Balbin said...

David. R' Volpe is a Talmid Chacham. No question about it. I am not sure which Seif in Shulchan Aruch I should be following to remove his Smicha. Perhaps you think he is a Zaken Mamre? I'm in a position to say that I think he is grossly misguided but that's about all I can say.

And what makes you think I don't speak to R' Telsner about these issues? I'm also not about to splash private discussions on the net, either.

PS. Do you agree that the "people who yell, have flags etc" create those who break Shulchan Oruch"?

bigger picture said...

i think david didnt read r isaac's posts. he made a clear distinction between people withteir own emuna which should be left alone and the very loud exhibiting of that emuno which he feels should be stopped.
rav volpe is a different story. he is an exeptionsal talmid chochom an his way is not hrouh slogans but through toyre and hasbore. hecarries a remendous respect by rabonim and poskm in eretz ysroel. r isaac - whereas agree with your discomfort of certan type of behaviours that you mentin - your take on r volpe is not factually correct. in early or mid fortie he wa reprimanded by the rebbe (who by the way alwas showed much affection to him and hinted to him that only someone that is held in such affection can get this rebuke. te rebbe also instructed him to publicise the rebbes shita on shleimus hooretz )for trying to write a seifer on moshiach. about 5 years later the rebbe gave him permission to publish the seifer. the rebbe gave at least 2 raboim permission to teach this seifer to baale batim. so i wouldnt put him in the same category as the flag waving tsfatim

Anonymous said...

EIther way

If the Rebbe knew what was happening and did nothing - the blame lies with him.

If not then he does not deserve the praise given to him.

He can be said to be like the Belzer Rebbe, a great CEO, strategist and tactitian but not the 'Rebbe' per say as he is made out to be.

Interesting that both these personalities were not the children of Rebbes and perhaps got a better view of the 'real world'

What do you guys think ??

david said...

"PS. Do you agree that the "people who yell, have flags etc" create those who break Shulchan Oruch"?"

I'm going to be brutally honest:The ones screaming and dancing with flags are second tier abusers.They have been "created" by the first tier guys..The guys who allowed the Meshichist movement the seal of rabbinic approval.R'Telsner is one of them.So is R'Akselrod, the dayan who wrote a letter of harsh condemnation against another Meshichist who doesn't fast or say tachanum, and has "heretical" beliefs, all this according to R'Akselrod, who was the guy with the "psak"
Quite unbelievable on the part of both of these men to condem their own created "golems"

david said...

Wolpe is the man who has single handedly down the most damage to Lubavitchs good name.Starting from a long time ago.
Also stop diluting the respect for real talmidei chachomim by anointing every Tom,Dick and Harry who knows how to use Otsar Hachochma as a "talmid chochom"

bigger picture said...

as much as i enjoy ( evn if i dont always agree with him ) reading isaac's posts, everything david writes is so void of toyre, haloche, mekoyres. its sa that we have guys who want to lve in this "feel good yidishkeyt" which has nothing to do with emes just fits with someones idea what sounds good and what doesnt. thank Gd in the real world outside of intrnet these people in the toyre krayzn are the minority

Anonymous said...

The bigger picture wrote:

as somebody who is in constant contact ith world at large ie the non religious jewish world, the modern orthodox, the chareidi world and the non jewish world ican say that with the exception of a very specific yeshivishe world lubavitch is by far the most reckoned with and respected jewish group

I would agree that this is so wherever the shlichim in the way-out places are concerned.

Sadly many Chabad rabbis in larger communities do not bring respect to Lubavitch. Punkt farkert.

R' Telsner is a chashuv rav, but he too is afraid of his own meshichism and meshichistn and allows that huge Yechii sign to hang in his shul. You should see the smirks (or anger) of visitors
when they see it.

Anonymous said...

New video from Melbourne's Moshiach Men

Anonymous said...

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Anonymous said...

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gold said...

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