Tuesday, November 23, 2010
Different Paths (Part I)
At the Kosel, many years ago. Photo courtesy of the LOC.
If you ever read the "Heavenly City" series by Menachem Gerlitz - whether in English, Hebrew or Yiddish - you're surely in the know when it comes to many of the battles that the Yishuv haYoshon in the Holy Land fought. Be it forced conversions, lack of human and property rights or trying to prevent the ideas of Haskoloh and modernity from penetrating their ranks. The way the community is portrayed is basically as one bloc, marching in lock step. All dressed the same, went to the same chadorim and other than the fact that there were Chassidim and Prushim who davened in different shuls and belonged to different "kollelim," were all the same cookie-cutter Jews. More or less. While that may be mostly true there were differences of opinion. In the circles of the Eda HaCharedis they commemorate to this very day the ban that was placed by the Rabbonei Yerushalayim on the teaching of foreign languages. I cannot remember when that ban was imposed, but it may have been as far back as in the times of Reb Shua Leib Diskin. They have this gathering in Kikar HaShabbos and all the chadorim that subscribe to the ban attend en masse. Of course, only Chadorim that are Yiddish only attend that gathering, since Ivrit - I guess - is included in the foreign language list. The French "Alliance" system was an arch nemesis of the frum Yishuv and is widely discussed in those books. They also were likely responsible for the breakdown in Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia among our bretheren. Until then most Jews in those countries had no connection to Haskoloh or similar enlightenment.
As we can see from the title of this essay, there was a ban on the teaching of secular studies in Old Jerusalem. [I suppose you can read what Prof. Leyman writes just like I can, but I'll help you out here and give you a synopsis.] Reb Shmuel Salant and Reb Shua Leib Diskin both signed on it, although Prof. Leiman makes it sound like it was the Perushim only that instituted the ban, not the Chassidim, But that could be since there as no strong Chassidic presence in the 1850s in Yerushalayim as of yet. The Chassidim were in Chevron, Tzfas and Tverya then. Then again, it could be my naarishe diyukim in Leiman just the same.. Reb Yechiel Michel Pines was a proponent of educating young children in the Holy City, especially yesomim who didn't have parents to fend for them, and tried to establish secular studies at Orphanages, etc. He was soon put in Ches. It seems like in those days not all Litvaks heard of the term Daas Teyreh. He realized what kind of effect the order of excommunication could have on his plans and knew that he needed some kind of Halachic support, so he went back home, to Di Litteh. It's hard for us to imagine that anybody would publically contradict the two giants of Jerusalem, but this seems to be the case here, albeit not specifically addressed to them, the Tshuveh is still addressed to them.
I bring this to your attention not because I agree with the Tshuveh - not that it matters either. I figure many of you, OK, some of you, would be interested and would appreciate the historical value of it. It also shows us that even an issue like this, that at the time was considered almost as bad as, say, Giyus Banos, there were disagreements among the great ones. You can imply what Leiman does in the essay, basically that Reb Dovid'l Karliner stuck up for his shvogger, and that his opinion was basically for sale, but I have more respect for him than you do. I can see some of you already preparing your comments how "Lubavitch always attacks the learning of Torah B'tahara" and other such nonsense, but I laugh at you. You might say that this issue, which seems so clear cut, goes to show you how issues really aren't that; even among the greats of the time there were major differences. Now mind you, are were those among Chassidim that would question Reb Dovid'l's shittos, especially since we know that as a younger man he was friendly with many of the big "enlightened ones," but that doesn't happen among the Bnei Teyreh. Reb Baruch Ber Leibovitch crossed the bridge into Kovno to catch a glimpse of him in his later life, as did all the bochurim of both Slabodka yeshivos, and I believe many of them made a brocho שחלק מחכמתו when they saw him. In other words RDF was the Gadol HaDor in Di Litteh. So there you have it. Do with it as you wish. I'll post the Tshuveh from Reb Dovid'l separately.
Subscribe to: Post Comments (Atom)
tzig thanx for the continuous gevaldige posts.You inspire alot of the water cooler conversation in the ihr hatorah.Just wondering if these posts were in honor of the c"k of shas rav amasalam who was bassically put in cherem and thrown out of shas for amongst other things suggesting that chadorim should teach the Tochnit Liba which is basic secular studies. Also what is your opinion on that whole hullabalo?
one thing that i think about is that the old yishuv did not take a part in the process of jewish self determination that was going on in eretz yisroel which ended with declaration of independence of ben gurion
they at the end made a stab at it with british former lord ger named was van daam or the such who was very articulate and outspoken for the political needs of the yishuv
he became to much of a thorn and was assasinated by the zionists
point is BY AND LARGE i resent the charedim leaving it the treifeh herzlists to set up independent administration in eretz yisroel
now were left with pressure to enter into the workforce and a moshe feiglin for jewish leadership in eretz yisroel
at the end of the day torah if it is really emmes has to take a serious foray into modern communal and national needs
which i would surmise is a neccesary part of the process of "tikkun olam" "dirah bitachtoinim" or kabbalas hatorah
"If you ever read the "Heavenly City" series by Menachem Gerlitz - whether in English, Hebrew or Yiddish - you're surely in the know "
How much truth in these books? Gerlitz is a known embellisher/story maker. I have even heard him joke about it!
I was in attendance as Professor Leiman gave this Shiur regarding the language ban during the height of the Slifkin controversy, and he remarked how the BANS always emanate from Jerusalem. He mentioned Nathan Kamenetzky (MOAG) and Slifkin as further examples.
One sharpie asked him "Shouldn't the bans emanate from where the subjects live?
[For those who don't know, both R. Nathan and R. Natan live in Jerusalem.]
The eida in many ways WAS set up to serve infrastucture needs of the yishuv. RYCZ even almost completed a peace treaty with jordan wich would have left the kehila autonomous, but de haan hy"d was murdered by the zionist scum...
Herschel, hecyesuni, du host derfreit mein hartz. The Vyoel Moshe builds such a big binyen (edifice) in maamar Loshen Hakodesh, on this cherem. He stretches it to the limit, since in ivrit there is mixed in words from foreign languages, hence the cherem is also on ivrit. Here comes reb Dovid Karliner and smashes this binyen to pieces. And since our Yiddish today is more than 25 percent English, so if I go to EY and I speak my Yiddish I am oiver on the cherem. How absurd. It is time to show the fallacies of the Vyoel Moshe.
"but de haan hy"d was murdered by the zionist scum..."
Dehaan died because he was not a Shomer Habris...
Pray tell what this has to do with Sheirut Leumi?
DeHaan didn't play it straight.
Out of Pinas campaign for teaching kids foreign languages, was he a Maskil? or a charadie Jew?
Were it not for Reb Yoelish TTB ZTL ,Mame-Loshn in America would be a thing of the past. Look at the way it is disappearing in Lubavitch, an example of which is Oholei Toreh which has gone over to English to a great extent. I won't even get into the strange gibberish that passes for Yiddish in the Yeshiveh world.
The same can be said for Yerushelaymer Yidn in Israel.Were it not for their takones everyone would be speaking Ivrit.Just listen to the hespeipim on Kol Haloshon by the senior Roshei Yeshiva. They are by far being delivered in Ivrit or some form of Ivrit spoken with a Ashkenazic intonation.
The truth is the truth.When it comes to language and darchei oves we owe these gedolei yisroel a debt of gratitude.
Yiddish has a din of Tashmishei K'Dusha. It has no intrinsic K'dusha per se.
If English is used as Tashmishei K'Dusha in the same manner, it acquires the same K'dusha as Yiddish.
That being said, I love speaking Yiddish, especially to an alter yid ...
anon...watch what you say...dehan was a baal tsuva for many years...
Just one shala - why in oholey teiro in KC there is no English studies? What was your Rebbes shita on that?
Reading Reb Dovid'l Karliners teshuvah it is clear that he permits learning foreign languages in order to make a living and communicate with the goyim. Nowhere does he give the slightest indication that Jews should start speaking Russian or Turkish or English among themselves.Do you think for one second that Reb Dovidl Karliner delivered his Shabbos Hagodol droshe in Russian? Doyou think the Alter of Slobodke gave his musser shmuesen in Lithuanian?The shiurim in Chachmei Lublin were in Polish? Speaking English in Yeshives and among ourselves is a "pirtzeh."
"Out of Pinas campaign for teaching kids foreign languages, was he a Maskil? or a charadie Jew?"
Both. As were many early Maskilim. And Many Gedolim. Such as the Marcheses and Dvar Avrohom. And many more
you are talking nonsense, I saw his profile in Wiki, he was Beuvie Hakora with the Zionist movement, while the Gedolim you listed were not in a war with them, but not a major part in the Movement.
The Lubavicher rebbe was at the belief that the early years of Tinokes Shel Bies Rabon should be spent 100% on torah veyirah.So he pushed to open a Cheder with Limudie Kodesh only .
With limudei kodesh only and in Yiddish only.
I knew that- question is just to get him to answer that. I am just trying to point out that Lubavitcher
Rebbe would treat Pines the same way as gdoilei Yerisholoim.So, unzerer Tsigele is going against his Rebbe's shita.
I did not take sides here, I was just pointing out an interesting part of history.
you are talking nonsense, I saw his profile in Wiki, he was Beuvie Hakora with the Zionist movement, while the Gedolim you listed were not in a war with them, but not a major part in the Movement.”
To this day, Brisk Yeshiva will not allow Seforim from these two Gedolim into Yeshiva due to their Maskilic inclinations. Which has nothing to do with being a Zionist, although there is some over lap. We need Schneur back!!
Post a Comment