Thursday, November 4, 2010

13 year old farmers... Learning or Working Part II

...... Well, that would be case if we followed the advice of the Mitteler Rebbe of Lubavitch, adviced offered way back in the 1820s. The advice was presented at a time when Jews would be happy with a slice of bread twice a day, yes, but should be just as relevant today as it was back then. Back then there were thousands upon thousands of such young farmers; they worked the land and were happy and G-d fearing, just like the Mitteler Rebbe said they were. Yeshiva was for a very select few, only those who were considered to be "Mutzlochim." Obviously times have changed. No longer do we have thousands of Jews living on Kolonyes in the Ukraine. And no longer can we have a society where only a handful can open a sefer other than a siddur. Knowledge is power, and lack thereof is lack of power to battle the forces of evil that wish to ensnare us in their webs of deceit and decadence. Unlike the letter from Reb Osher Stoliner, where the letter seems to be a general one, albeit written to a relative, this letter DOES seem like it was only addressed to that particular segment of society, to Yishuv'niks who were living a simple, yet uplifting life in the breadbasket of the Ukraine. The Rebbe doesn't seem to worry about the fact that the Yid's lack of knowledge might bring him to be over on a issur muktzeh, which some of you here WERE very concerned about... (not that I'm trying to diminish the severity of the issur, cholileh.)

So we've come a long way, people. Most of us can daven - at least for themselves - and many of us can learn a Posuk Chumish by ourselves. Some of us can learn a Mishneh, There are even those who can learn a blatt gemoreh without a crutch, and a handful can learn a Teysfis without help. Real progress indeed. No longer are we danger of assimilation or departure from the fold. We're safe and learned. We look like Jews, none of that brown hats and tan suits anymore. We each have a set of daled minim and we have tashmishei kedusheh that would put the biggest tzaddikim of yesteryear to shame. Reb Chaim's hiddur mitzveh couldn't hold a candle to that of a 20 year old in Bnei Beraq these days. There's more "Torah" in one week in Lakewood than there was for years back in some places In Europe. Ah! mamesh achshir doro! And the chidushei torah that appear today? mamesh hafleh VoFeleh! Judging from how beautiful everything is today it's a chiddush that we ever speak about der later heim at all. All we had was a bunch of freiaks and Amiratzim who never had the true simchas hachayim and mesikus hatorah - those things could only happen post WW2, after (in the morning) and before (in the afternoon) picking up the babies from the babysitter... They had none of that back in Europe, so what did they know...

But we need farmers. We need a place where a young man can use his hands for constructive purposes. Not all of us are cut out for learning. And sometimes he may be cut out for learning, but all he needs is some encouragement and a voice that listens, not reprimands. We're not advocating that we close down all yeshivos, c"v, but we do know that some of us need assistance, so that we can grow up as erliche yidden, tomchei torah. And thank G-d there are 2 such yeshivos in the Monsey area alone. They cater to two different clienteles, otherwise they would work together, I'm sure. We're talking Mesivtos here. And we're talking about kids that are not necessarily incapable of learning because of a disability, all they need is to be made to feel like a human being who can accomplish. One is Shaarei Arozim, which caters to the Yeshivish/American Oylem and has built a sterling reputation, and another is a relative newcomer, Yeshiva Talpios. Shaarei Arazim has an easier time, IMHO, since they deal with a society that's less - only a little less - worried about mah yomru haBriyos. They're more inclined to do what's right for their child, no matter what the nosy lady from across the street says. They've also been in business for some years now and are likely more open to modern methods than Talpios may be, at least judging from the external trappings.

Both of them have transformed boys and are working wonders, B"H.


Anonymous said...

This is interesting letter.

Hey, what happened to the Alter Rebbes opinion in Shulchan Aruch that u must learn every second?

Cecil said...

A very enjoyable and readable post. I didn't notice if these yeshivot cater to which types of Jews, but I am sure all are covered.

I would like to stress, that the Chasidim who go to work in the trucking industry when they are nineteen, it is more important for them to get a serious yeshiva eductation during their teens, precisely because their chances of getting serious years later (if they weren't before) are small - ak"p ldateey.

Somehow, many of them can subsust on a group leaning of Ohr Hachaim Hakodosh. I do find it embaressing thought, that there are so many study aids (Chavreesah gemarahs, cheating seforim, let alone Shotenstiens) in Chassidic places. It is sad that they are satisfied with so little.

yechiel h said...

I'm personally familiar with the goings on in Talpios and can attest that they're from the most big-hearted compassionate, and hardworking people in chinuch. I've seen them transform bitter, depressed bochurim into happy human beings and good Yidden. Truly amazing.

WanderingJew said...

Wow Tzig.
You found that letter. Its gevaldig. Mitzva lefarsem this letter.

Interesting u made the connection. Gradde know amazing boys from Shaarei Arazim and Talpios. They are a Raya that there IS a way that works. but they have a uphill battle.

Shoin but who cares.
Its LikeWhatever

Anonymous said...

in Lakewood their are a lot of these kind of Yeshivahs. Chassidim don"t have enough yeshivahs like these, there is one in Monsey Ziv Hatorah run by a big tzadik with a big heart his name slipped my mind, but not too professional.

Anonymous said...

First Anon
In the Miteler Rebbe preface to the AR Shulchan Orech, he writes that his Father presented him with a curriculum for 1)yoshvie ohel who are supported by their parents 2)guys who do some minor work 3) guys that are really working, for the last segment he gives a seder of 2 to 3 hours learning.A lot was discussed on the differences between his curriculum and the Hilchas TT of his father, the circus tent has no room for these discussion

shlomo said...

Interesting if Lubavitcher would be brave enough to send to a non Lubavitch like Shaarei Arozim??

Probably not.
They are against learning full time, but loi mit an alef to any non Lubavitch

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

wow, shlomo

you found out that answer all by yourself?

you asked and answered right away!


Anonymous said...

see this letter from the friediker rebbe

Pinchas said...

I guess that some rebbes now have an excuse why they are so ignorant
"They couldnot be meyached the yechidim needed to learnchimesh Rash"i"
Love it!Nice limmud zchus

grainom said...

bottom letter on the first page posted seems he holds of rabaini zy"a shita that the girls should learn how to cook clean and sew...

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

ziv hatoyre kvetched gelt ad hasof, and then some.

Anonymous said...

hey tzig hut zich genimen "lernen"

Zeidel said...

What did you see in this letter?
As I UNDERSTAND IT,the kids "vous toygen nisht in lernen" are sent to work the fields.
Bichlal, at the time there was no way for people to be full time learners and make parnusseh.
I"m sure it was quite common, maybe almost universal, for teenagers to work,IF, there was any work...
That'swhy the set up thesefarms because yidden had no parnoseh

Yossi said...

Shaarei Arozims promotional video is quite impressive!

Cohen said...

Where do u know Sharei Arozim from?
Seems to be a quality place

Fremd said...

You criticized a certain person for discouraging girls from higher learning (when he told her to learn how to bake, when she approached him with a question on Ramban) yet you constitently advocate lower educational standards for males. Is this an attempt at "equalizing the roles of the sexes" in Judaism? Is this a Chabad thing?

Anonymous said...

"The Rebbe doesn't seem to worry about the fact that the Yid's lack of knowledge might bring him to be over on a issur muktzeh, which some of you here WERE very concerned about.."'

that is probably because he knew that the chassidim heeded to call of his father who writes in a letter (igeeret hakodesh 23) how all should learn between mincha and maariv halachot especially hilchot shabbat where there are so many instances where one can be ovair deorayta and derabanan.

Anonymous said...

Good points! The difference though is that that lifestyle allowed one stay within the fry of yiddishkeyt and avaodat Hashem being away from the "hamolah shel romi" that exists in most of our socieities today. That formula would not work today.

WE need formulas that integrate the youth in the open society and yet are given the warmth and passion to live jewishly.

In the meantime, and until many such yeshivas as you describe come to the shore, we have the yeshivas system that allows for thousands upon thousands of people to live basic judaism and build jewish families.

Yidy said...

Ofclourse you are always right!!

Reuven said...

Should we do away with kolels in your opinion?

Steven said...

Does anyone know if Lubavitch has any long-term Kolelim, for intensive long term study?
If not, I"m not sure why a blogger would bring up as a discussion something that he clearly is against.
Unless I'm unfamiliar with his group.

Steven said...

Generally the Lubavitch Shluchim I have been in touch with have not been prepared to deal with anyone above a very basic ability to read Hebrew or do any study on their own.
I really wish they were better prepared before they are sent out

Anonymous said...

It would be interesting for lubavitchers to read some of the Previous Rebbe's sichot what he says about those who come with veltishe hanochos and do not not get that a married man wants to devote to full time learning.

Eli said...

How many young men are in Kolel?

Chaim said...

I think that if Kolel is incorporated with outreach then it's ok

WanderingJew said...

"in Lakewood their are a lot of these kind of Yeshivahs"


Shaarei and Talpios are not 'Shvache' Yeshivos. They are not a 'Kind' of Yeshiva. Watch the Shaarei Video, tell me if you have ever seen anything like it. They both developed complex programs with proven results. Do you know any of their Talmidim?

Anonymous said...

A Git Shabess to all


Anonymous said...

I heard from Reb Yosef Mermelstien that these Monsey yeshivos do a very good job and they attract bright students.

Anonymous said...

it seems to me that Lubavitchers today, rather than spreading yiddishkeit, see our main role in politics and at demonstrations. Maybe if those of us who aren't actually on shlichus - ie. Rabbis in Chabad Houses, teachers etc - would put more of our energies towards mivtzoim as the Rebbe seems to have wanted, rather than getting involved in politics, our movement would be in better shape.

Eisner said...

I don't really know what Lubavitch does.?
Feed people meals in faraway places.
Commendable, but no great shakes?
Put tefillin on secular Jews,gentiles?
No real redeaming value.
Teach Torah?They don't really teach anything besides repeating outlandish mantras.
What they do do is secure turf and scare off any real Jewish groups that can make a real difference.

Probably the biggest accomplishment of shlicus is providing a monthly check for thousands of families who would otherwise be on NYC's welfare rolls
Now that is something big

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...


who's the loser now??

Chanan said...

"Yeshiva Talpios. "

Can someone tell us a bit about this yeshiva and towards whom they are geared?

Anonymous said...

"Teach Torah?They don't really teach anything besides repeating outlandish mantras"
what do these words mean? they teach or they dont teach? is it too little torah? or too much?
"Put tefillin on secular Jews,gentiles?
No real redeaming value."
is it the rotzan hashem that every jew should put on Tefilin? yes? or no? if yes how did a Apikores like you decide the value of a great mitzva like Tefilin?


Anonymous said...

Putting tefillion on people with no guf noki and no idea that they are doing a miztva is not even begeder mitza habo be'aveira.
It's meaningless

Anonymous said...

"Putting tefillion on people with no guf noki"
how much percent of people walk on the streets witout a Guf noki? did you get statistics from the NYC health commisioner,
what a idiotic claim,
"and no idea that they are doing a miztva is not even begeder mitza habo be'aveira."
who said so?
how many people can you see putting on tefilin in Munkatch or satmar 53rd that have no idea what they are doing, even after saying Leshem Yichud.

Anonymous said...

"how many people can you see putting on tefilin in Munkatch or satmar 53rd that have no idea what they are doing, even after saying Leshem Yichud."


Anonymous said...

Hey,nonymous Lubavitcher
Don't be offended, but you don't sound very smart.

Anonymous said...

I don't think putting tefilin on a goy has a problem with guf nuky - but I could be wrong. I hope they check the tefilin out and don't just give them (the Yidden) from the mivtzoim stash. Anyways, it is obvious that most of the tefilin they put on is pussal because it fails to be mikasher the neshamah with the guf (naky) that tfilin is supposed to do.


Anonymous said...

"I hope they check the tefilin out and don't just give them (the Yidden) from the mivtzoim stash."
are you a sofer ? that u are stating a fact that they are possul? In Matter of fact the Possul tefilin they are using for the Goyim and the non Gif Noki guys. are you happy now?