Monday, June 28, 2010

What are they celebrating?!

Zeh haYom Osoh Hashem...

You may have the pictures and videos of the singing and the dancing. The smiles all around, the high-fives, the hugs and kisses. The wine and the L'chaim being said in the streets. Not something you expect from Eydele Slonimer Chasidim.. The "Emanuel 22" or 33, I'm not sure how many there are, were finally released from Prison, after spending 10 days there. They say it was no picnic there; the mosquitoes were biting away, and being away from your wife and kids is not all it's cooked up to be, even if it was all expenses paid... There are so many angles and subjects to discuss here, and so little time. Now, don't get me wrong here, I have - or had, maybe? - a very soft spot in my heart for Slonim, especially Veise Slonim, but I'm really scratching my head here, trying to stay in the Charedi loop and go along with this, but having a difficult time understanding what happened here and what was accomplished! Why any of the jail was necessary and how they come out the winners if they're all gonna be together in one school for three days this week anyway, something they promised would never happen...

Let's see if I have this straight: The Chinuch Atzma'i Bais Yaakov in Emanuel, West Bank decided that some of the students there no longer met their high standards. It seems to me that they decided this mid-year, otherwise they could've just asked those students that they didn't want not to come back to school. I could be wrong, however. They kept on repeating a set of rules laid down by Rav Wosner that the ones they would not accept did not keep or would not. Yes, there were lots of people that complained that they weren't accepted, but there were kids in school that became treyf overnight, once already in school. That part is the one I don't get. "You can't change the rules in the middle of the game," is what I learned in the schoolyard. But it seems like in the mean streets of Emanuel they do things differently; they do change the rules. Either that or they put up walls in the school corridor so that they not defile their eyes and ears by seeing and hearing the dark ones. OK, not all dark ones, only some of them. I know, I know, they have Sefardi girls in their school too. Who thought of this crass, tactless way of dividing Jews? What kind of education did they get? These are heroes?!

So they mixed in the BaGatz and that's where they lost. Most Jews don't like a bunch of elitist Leftists telling them what to do, no matter what it is, especially frum people. Unless you're an elitist leftist yourself... I'm sure there were lots of Rabbonim that would've taken their (Laloum & Co.) side, they even insist that had the Slonimer Rebbe known what his people in Emanuel were up to he would've brought an end to it immediately! Which shows you that they chose not to besmirch even their greatest adversary in this case. So they learned from the Kanoyim how to make a production and got everybody involved in a very short period of time. Hundreds of thousands (of Ashkenazim) came and sanctified Hashem's name. They - the parents - promised that they'd never back down, even if they were threatened with death by firing squad - as the Slonimer Rebbe put it - and even if it was only for a few days. We see how that promise was kept... So what was the point of these fathers and mothes in jail anyway, just to prove a point, to send a message to BaGatz? what about all the innocent kids who were blacklisted, was the point made on their backs?

Then there was the Thursday night cholent and melava malka at the prison... I realize Israelis don't work or do much else, but where do people find the time to do all this? Oh, right. they don't work. Then came the non-stop celebration and the victory laps and parades. Hello? anybody home? You compromised your so-called values here, even if ony for 3 days, why are you so happy, just because they were released? This wasn't the Rubashkin Trial, we all knew it was only for 2 weeks in the first place. Whatever. And they all take credit for this great victory! everybody from Meir Porush to Yankel Litzman to Eli Yishai to Rav Ovadia, for whom this may have been a vendetta against his "disobedient" son Reb Yaakov, may he have a refuah sheleimoh. Shas did nothing the whole time when this was going through the Court, they allowed Laloum to do their dirty work for them, since they too complain that they're shut out of the Ashkenazi mosdos. And now they take the credit... There's lots more to discuss, and I know I had more on my mind, but it's way past my bedtime. I'm sure they'll all come up in the comments section. I know I'd like to know why the Slonimer's first stop was to Rechov Chanan 10.... They always did have that lack of chassidishe shtoltz - well, not always, only the last 2 generations.

A visit to Rav Elyashiv...


Mottel said...

I for one am completely mystified by the whole thing . . . everyone seems slimy coming out of it. Then again, it is Israel . . .

shmilu said...

Why are you bothered if The Slonimer Rebbe visits Rav Elyoshiv, a man who could be his zeideh and is a tremendous talmid chochom?
Is everything about "sholtz" in other words gayva?
I"m not to happy about the Emmanuel story, but The Slonimer showing respect for one of the Gedoley Hador earns my respect.

Anonymous said...

Great analysis! The first sane person on the net (aside from myself) who has it all down pat. Is it the atmosphere of Yud Bais -Yud Gimmel Tammuz where our zeides (at least b'ruchniyus) faced real life threats that made this sound phony? And the no win win that was celebrated with Didan notzach was a bit much. Here in EY I feel that I the only one who feels that this whole parsha was ridiculous from start to finish. Everyone else (non Lubav) is busy kvelling at the great victory.
And yes, I supported the demonstration against the Bagatz, and almost believed for a moment that they were going to go all the way. Stay tuned for the Bagatz interfering on more halachic issues.
Yehofchu vechulu, Moshiach NOW

Anonymous said...

Why did you see fit to demonstrate the Begatz, they did the right thing, they stopped some elitist ashkenazi racist in their tracks. The school is 95% government funded, the building was built by the Govt. then the Govt. funded Begatz has to interfer, if the Slonimer is that macho, let him open a private school as Satmar, Reb Arelech etc.. with zilch funding of the dammed Zionist that were ready to shoot him (as he write in his immature letter).

Yekkishe Bekishe said...

To whoever was to embarrassed to write his name but hid in anonymity & sent a message on Tuesday, June 29, 2010 10:12:00 AM.

1. Are you sure of your facts?
2. Are you that "macho" that you can poke fun at the Slonimer Rebbe? I met him once while at the Kosel. He came alone - without any Gaboim,Mazkirim, Chasidim or social directors - took a Tehilim & started saying Tehilim very seriously. I am not a Slonimer Chosid, but the Avodas Hashem was very impressive.
3. Do you know the Slonimer Rebbe that well that you can poke fun at him?
4. If the Gedolei Hador said to demonstrate & they themselves participated in the demonstration, who are you to criticize their Psak Din?
5. Evidently you never read the Slonimer Rebbes letter - or an accurate translation thereof. The letter says in very simple Hebrew, "even if I'm placed in front of a firing squad I won't back down."

Anonymous said...

Yekishe Bekishe
Did the Slonimer Chasidim go to the protests in Yaffo and Ashkelon,of course not. I think there were some Gedolim their too that send to that protest. It is just that they laughed it off, and I am using that privilege too for myself to disapprove the pro racism protest.
I saw his letter and the Firing squad part is foolish.

Rehov slonim 11 said...

the bagatz now coceded they can open a private school (not govt funded) next year...until now they refused to allow this...

Anonymous said...

Yekishe Bekishe
please read below the painful complains of a Emanuel parent that he said at a Shas party meeting
"They spilled our blood and you remained silent," said a devoutly
ultra-Orthodox father, Amnon Assaf, whose daughter studies in the
general track, to the Shas people. "They said Sabbath-desecrators?
They are talking about me, me. They spilled our blood in the media,
everywhere, and you kept quiet. The spilling of blood is also on you,
because you kept quiet," he accused them.

Afterward, one of the Knesset members told Haaretz: "They came to the
meeting, all of them with beards down to their navel. Ultra-Orthodox.
I was really very surprised. I expected newly religious people in
jeans, people who aren't prepared to accept the definitions of the
Orthodox - newly religious people who go around like secular people.
Suddenly they show up, completely ultra-Orthodox. I thought just a
minute, what's going on here?"


its all a white lie, it is pure racisim, plus wasn't Chassidus created to stop the elitism in Jewry, I think when you read the Toldoth Yakov Yosef the first chasidic sefer,you see his disdain for the ingrained class warfare in Klal Yisroel.The Slonimer Rebbe created a huge Chilul Hashem with this fiasco, he pulled a fast one on everyone that it is secular vs. religion war while its a lie.

Anonymous said...

Slonim 11
its a lie, they never stopped them from going private, they just stopped them in mid season.

Anonymous said...

the bagatz now coceded they can open a private school (not govt funded) next year...until now they refused to allow this...

So, where are they going to raise the money to open such a private school? Emmanuel is an impoverished community. And they are going to find fund-raising in ChuL to be very hard as most people over here have heard the story and are not happy about it!

Anonymous said...

Eventough fundraising is tough,but we are better off then getting the Rebbe shot by the Begatz"Firing Squad"

Anonymous said...

Did Chabad attend the protest?

Tzig, this post is confusing, I can't figure out what you are saying - honest.

Is it true that the Bagatz said that the parents can't send their kids to Bney Braq scools and must send it there? Yes or no.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...


I'm just confused about this whole slew of victory visits that the Slonimer is doing..

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I don't remember what happened re: Bnei Berak, I think Belz was told to stop taking them. But that's somewhat beside the point.

Chabad was actually very pro-Slonim and the Protest, and very vocal about it too! In all publications, even those that get distributed all over Israel.

Anonymous said...

Lubavitchers showed up to the Protest?

dovy said...

tzig, you souind realy silly and uninformed in this one. no wonder you have gotten approval from the haters and losers. i think you should have kept your thoughts to yourself this time.
your friend,
p.s. i think even lubabs admit that yakov yosef is a nut. no need to get defensive of him.

Yuk said...

I am also puzzled and baffled by this outward and public display of celebration. Jews are taught to avoid publicity and the limelight.

I have a question for some of the more knowledgable people. From what I understand, Lubavitch considers the Tanya to be the תורה שבכתב of Chasidus (since the Besht didn't write anything himself). Hence, Lubavitch anaylzes the precise wording of Tanya in a manner that it unique; other groups only make such diyukim in the words of the Rishonim.
Recently, it has come to my attention that the Rebbe zy"a makes diyukim in Tanya, that - to the unitiated - seems like they are the diyukim of the type that others wouldn't make in the words of Rishonim. What I want to know is if the Rebbe's hyper-literal diyukim was precedented in Chabad?

(For example: the Rebbe asks why Tanya starts off with a reference to "סוף נדה" when it is not exactly at the end of the Mesechtah; merely on the last couple of folios. The Rebbe explains that the AR intended to incorporate a text on the last page of the Mesechta. However, it is common to refer to סוף or ריש פרק to the first and last bletter)


Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I sound silly and uninformed. I see. Have you something to say here, or are you just here to shoot your mouth off?
What exactly did I say that you disagree with?
why do I even bother with you?
What does this have to do with Reb Yaakov Yosef, other than the fact that he gave Laloum the OK to go to court?
Most people have ZERO idea about him, they couldn't tell you a thing about him.
Now go eat your lunch.

Mottel said...

-yuk: Why you bring it up here i beyond me. There is a history of being m'dayik in Tanya for generations - look at some of the biurim brought down in the name of Reb Hillel Paritcher!

Anonymous said...

Stopping chassidic bigots don"t make you a nut case. Writing a letter that you will be fired by the firing squad is closer to lunacy

Anonymous said...

If you will follow the Rebbe well you will see that he uses this method in all his studies.
I saw lately Diyukim in Mishna Berura that are on the same level. If you believe that the person that wrote his words was a profund thinker then noting should be taken as casual. The Rebbe discussed this once in a sicha regarding the difference between the words on the AR vs, the Miteler Rebbe. Also a lot of the Rebbes style diyukim you can see in his fathers Heoras on Tanya.

Yuk said...

Of course, I know that Chabad makes diyukim in Tanya and they have traditions that the AR spent weeks debating on one word (בז''א, RYBS spent hours debating with some of his talmidim on a comma in Lonly Man of Faith). However, I have yet to see anyone be midayek in a Rishon when a Rishon mentions סוף מסכתין. In essence: my question is if it is precedented in Chabad to be midayek in Tanya more than they would into the words of a Rishon, or that started with the Rebbe zy"a? I would appreciate and intelegent response.

Mottel said...

-Yuk: As Anon 3:02 said - the Rebbe's derech has always focused on being m'dayik in every nuance - learn a Rashi Sicha!

Anonymous said...

did you ever see the Likutie Levi Yitzchok on tanya?

again said...

Its amazing to me how you can miss out on so many facts, while still think you have a clue whats going on.

Did you know that there were many thousands of sefardim at the protest?

Did you know that almost a third of the school is sefardi?

Did you know that a third of the jailed parents were sefardi?

The girls are not in a mixed school right now.

Get your facts straight before you comment. You remind me of a certain MO blogger who also makes up facts when he needs them

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...


we know all this
I'm coming after this...

Anonymous said...

did you see the Interview of Reb Yakov Yossef? did you see the parents complaints at the shas part meeting?
Get your facts straight before you comment. You remind me of a certain MO blogger who also makes up facts when he needs them

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

Can anyone explain to me the rational for requiring as a condition of acceptance speaking with an Ashkenazy pronunciation EVEN AT HOME!!! Sound to me that the school didn’t discriminate against Sefardim or anyone else. All those with grandparents from Poland were allowed, whether Sephardim of Ashkenazim.

Is there one poster here who spent more than a year in E’Y’ and is prepared to deny that discrimination against Sefardim is endemic in Ashkenazi institutions?

Anonymous said...

why is the Slonimer running around to all the Gedolim? he acts as a person that is on a guilt trip, he is trying to convince others in order he should be convinced that it is not blatant Racist. Reb Yakov Yosef said that he tried for 3 years to talk to him and he was answered with a wall of silence.I am not getting it, how this will match with his description of simple humility with no layers of secretaries and butlers.

Tziki kedera said...

R y.t. Weiss and the beDatz said they would help slonim raise the money for the new school...

Anonymous said...

Tziki Krdera
how many mosdois do you know that they are helping? you know that Keren Hatzola throws in only a penny in the bucket

Yuk said...

Rashi was a Rishon

Mottel said...

Yes, exactly - Rashi was a Rishon!

You asked:
"However, I have yet to see anyone be midayek in a Rishon when a Rishon mentions סוף מסכתין. In essence: my question is if it is precedented in Chabad to be midayek in Tanya more than they would into the words of a Rishon, or that started with the Rebbe zy"a? I would appreciate and intelegent response.

So I answered: The Rebbe was medayik in rashi, a rishon to the same degree. "Chabad" is not more medayik in one then the other . . .

leo said...

What are you referring to? Tanya B'sof Nida is on 30b, only one page before end of chapter (not tractate) on 31b. What is wrong with B'sof?

Anonymous said...

Rashi is a Rishon , but nobody has said that after the rishonim its impossible to write a sefer that each word should be written with some deep toughts,
I would say that the claim of the Sanzer Rovs sons that their fathers Teshuvahs benigla are all written with kabala undertones is a further strech in emunas tzadikim then have a nice diyuk in Tanya. It would be interesting to see that one of the grandchildren should explain the Kabala underlay of the Nigleh teshuvahs.

Anonymous said...

If only the Israelis would know and understand that to many of us outside Israel they are considred a lot worse than the way they consider sfardim, for their conductand not for their skin colour, perhaps they would begin to understand how self defeating, nasty and malicious their campaign was.

But they will never learn at least not untill they've destroyed everything prasieworthy about their country so it's just time to let them stew in their own juice.

Yuk said...


That's exactly my point. The Rebbe asks that bi'sof is imprecise because it is not on the last folio. I have never seen anyone ask such a question (or similar one) when a Rishon uses b'sof in a similar context. Hence, I assumed the Rebbe's hyper-analization was unprecedented, even in Chabad.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

"That's exactly my point. The Rebbe asks that bi'sof is imprecise because it is not on the last folio. I have never seen anyone ask such a question (or similar one) when a Rishon uses b'sof in a similar context. Hence, I assumed the Rebbe's hyper-analization was unprecedented, even in Chabad."

It makes no sense to ask the question on a Rishon. Because the standard page pagination (AKA as turas hadaf) didn’t exist in the time of the rishonim!!!! But it did exist in later days (Although I don’t think to much of such a Diyuk anyway)

Emes Lamito said...

I know u wont post this cuz u dont know how to take critiziam but
Youre one big piece of closed (rmsh) minded bs anti semite, self hating haredi, and lier. every other word is extra.
maybe now youl'e post it