Thursday, June 17, 2010
Immanuel, BaGaTZ, Jail, Shtreimlach, Racism, Slonim, Sefardim, R' Yakov Yosef and Yoav Leloum
There are two - maybe three - points here - and they need to looked at separately. The fact that the BaGaTZ (Israeli High Court) is meddling in the acceptance practices of frum schools is terrible and needs to be stopped. But the problem is that people - the non-religious Hamon Am - and most frum Sefardim as well - see this series of demonstrations as support for "discrimination" and "Racism." They very often are turned down when trying to enroll their kids in Ashkenazi schools. They see the parents of the mostly Slonimer Chassidim being lauded as heroes for insisting on being separate from the Sefardim, despite it not being the case. Meaning they're being called heroes for listening to their Rabbonim, not because they're Racists. The Charedim need to do a better job of PR, despite the fact that the deck is stacked against them by the Media. If I was not frum I'd watch the evening news and be disgusted by the pageantry and dance going on. They could've separated the two incidents and not made as if all these 100,000 people support segregated schools, which is how the International Media is reporting it.
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The big hafguneh??
Vous zougsteh derveygen?
The lubavitch angle?
The fact that R'Yakov Yosef is big lubavitch supporter?
I believe that Reb Yakov Yosef is a tzadik, and slonim are a bunch of reshoim, Plus I am noting the whole argument here, if slonim is part of the Chinuch Mamlachti (public school system) as Chionuch Atzmai is, then they have to listen to the courts, they can't opt out like Satmar and be independent, you can not have the cake and eat it. All the food programs of the Government, that our Chareidie schools are benefiting in the USA, has to be open to every religion, race,and sexual orientation. So mai kol harash?
what if the court will pasken that shzar is nosi doirein and not the rebbe will you make a hafagna ?
Hirshel will scream 3 times Yechi and the Bedatz will dissolve
Can someone give the facts? is this school government sponsored? then why don"t they listen to the couert system? were they racial in their decisions? or all decisions are based on merits? Is a sefardi kid that knows the Ben Ish Chai Baal Peh that has latino looking skin accepted in slonim ? why don't they see that this racisim has to stop? I am not a Satmar chosid , but you have to give them credit they opened their institutions to sefardim of Argentina and sefardim of Yemen all the years.
Ten of the parents going to jail are sefardim. Just saying.
Here is a good one.....pay for your own services and you can do what you want.
That extends to:
- way you educate your kids
- who can attend your schools
- segregation on buses
- destruction of public property at hafgunes
- subsidies for apartments
- bums getting Kollel cheques and avoiding army, but walking around the streets of Geula, Bnei Berak etc... all day long not doing any good for anyone....
You get the message. I agree with the policy, just not when getting the frayers and Mizrachi to pay then telling them what to do
"If I was not frum I'd watch the evening news and be disgusted by the pageantry and dance going on."
Ok,I am frum and I am disgusted by these narrow minded bigots!
R y yosef is a tzidik...i know him close for 37 years..but he calls askanazim natzi'm...hatred blinds him...lalum brags he already has 6 seats in the next elections...
this story has nothing to do if the state finances the schools or not
the state in any country not only in israel can if they want force any school to educate how the state wants (even if they are not financed by the state)
by the way a lubavitcher chossid who sat in siberia told me that in russia the commies only sent the father to jail if the son went to a illegal cheder and did not go to the state school by the zionim both parents go to jail for not sending a child to a state school
is Lalum a Dati? Charadie?
if Slonim has sefardim in the Mossad then ehat exactly is the argument?
I have to agree that the only issue here is State Money. If you want to have an exclusive, exclusionary policy to your school you must do so with private funds alone. As soon as the State gets involved in underwriting your school in a significant way then the State has a veto on all school policies. It's that simple.
I have little to no sympathy for communities that take that "free" government money and are then shocked, SHOCKED to find out that there is a price to pay.
I think anybody knows the facts here.
It has nothing to do with Sfardi or Ashkenoozi. The only think the "charedi " part of Imanuel (including some Sfardim) wanted was to have more charedi type of education. So, without using their seichel (which isrelis are known for) and instead of making a separate school, they made a mechitse in a classroom, which obviously made the tsionim to chap on it.How ever, it still does not make it it better, that government tells people to which school to send their kids to.
Certanley rabanu Yoel and the brisker rav are correct,,,takeing $$ gives the erev rav the keys to the torah.....but here the sin was r yosef and lalum going to the begatz...in the time of beit shanie aristobilis asked the romans to intervine in internal affaires...this was the beginning of the end(RANBAN-tavoh). BTW, RaV shach allowed only 50 percent funding from the govt...no one listened...
Why is the Begatz good when they decide who is Rosh Yeshiva in Ponovizh, who will be Rebbe on the Satmar Benai Berak buildings or who will pay for beating up Moshe Friedman in Miron? the event yesterday made a mockery of Charidie Jewry, A few weeks ago Rav Stienman was mad at the harsh elitist selective system of the Charidie schools, so what is the uproar if the Begatz gets involved on a helpless issue?
Anon...there r steinman was against eliteism...here he is against seperating un-dati girls...
This is not about state money for schools anymore. The parents are punished for choosing not to send their kids to the school the judge ordered them too. They also offered to forego any state funds (admittedly later in the game), but that was not good enough for the judge.
As I already said elsewhere today, I spoke to some [non-charedi] friends in the area. The likely scenario is that someone (probably with an anti-settler agenda) is trying to destroy the town of Emanuel by putting the charedi and non-charedi populations on a collision course. Charedim are the fastest growing segment of the "settlers", but they stay on the sidelines and are not as susceptible to most political methods of attack of the left. Here the anti-settlement political forces are mostly interested in stopping the "charedi" settlement expansion by igniting a war between them and the religious zionists. The plan backfired in an unexpected way, with the judge going overboard on his own agenda.
There is some evidence for that too. Why did they pick the fight in Emanuel? Even the charedi section of this school is 30% sephardic. There are hundreds of schools in Bnei Brak with much more restrictive admission policies, where this fight could be taken closer to home.
And for a slightly off-topic counterpoint, I would be interested to know if the elite public schools in Hertzlia where some of these judges are likely to send their kids to, have any significant number of sephardi students. I have a friend who will tell you what it meant to be a "Russian" student in such a school. I doubt a sephardi can survive there at all. If they are diversity advocates, they do not need to look far beyond their neghbourhood.
is Lalum a frum jew shomer shabos, tharas hamishpoche,keeps a kosher home, wifes hair is covered?
you try to portray Reb Yakov yosef and Lalum as part of a wide conspiracy, which they are not, Reb Yakov Yossef is far from being a politican
you try to portray Reb Yakov yosef and Lalum as part of a wide conspiracy.
I do not know either of them, and am not portraying them, or even the judge, as anything. The original discrimination complaint was very likely well-founded. But it has been long since lost in the storm.
It is improbable that the parents who actually complained in the first place are still seeking acceptance in that class. If so, they would be injuring their child just to make their point, by having her face the very people who allegedly hurt her feelings and prospect. I hope that is not the case.
I guess the Whities in the south had the same arguments against integration of black kids, the facts have shown that it could work, and in a Klal Yisroel that is not egoistic and selfish this argument has no place , and if we know know that Ahavas yisroel does not meant anash only, this thing has to work, I can't imagine how a people that just returned from Auschwitz could built that (arrogant)fence in the parks to divide yidishe kinder, its gross not derech hatorah and for sure not derech habesht. Reb Sholem Noach wrote very populist seforim but showed no backbone in applying some derech habesht, I believe the slonimer melancholy is a symptom of their deep hyper ego
all wrong.as long as haredis choose in large numbers not to earm a living,not be osek byishuvo shel olam, but rather to live off of my childen's hard and honestly earned tax dollars;as long as they can not pay for their own schools and continue to take public funds then the government has the right and the obligation to intervene.as for frum it is rashei teivot for
"FIEL RISHES VEINIG MIDOS".
Regarding Laloum...see the linked article.
the policy wasn't wasn't based on educatiopnal choices. the chareidi slonimer program wouldn't accept sefardim, even if they agreed with the slonimer "rebbe's" game plan
the parents wouldn't let let their kids play with the sefardi kids in the playground, and the policy advocated the sefardi kids davening with a Ashkenazi havoreh (at home, oichet!)
seperate curiculum? pu-leaze
all the shenanigans between sects and minhagim are of little interest. the problem here is the involvement of religion in state matters. look at the rifts and violence that elections have been causing in the charedi communities.
the court should have ordered the state to stop funding the school, instead of arresting parents. in my opinion no school whose students don't go into the workforce or into the army should be funded by the state. i do blame the israeli government for enabling the parasitism and arrogance among charedis that we see now in israel (charedi sects in the us or canada would never dare to do what is done by charedi sects in israel).
End of the love affair between the Chabad inc (with Tzig as it's paid p.r piece) and Slonim inc.???
See link to shturem.net :http://www.shturem.net/index.php?section=news&id=43656, an interview done in a secular Israeli newspaper and the widely accepted opinion about Lubavitch inc d.b.a (strangely enough....) as Chochma,Bino Vodaas.
I"m sure Tzig, all "fired up" from the pre yud bais Tammuz farby with the now legal "zeks oon ninetziker" kool-aid, will not let this go unanswered!
why should I support the chinuch of Slunim rather Laloum? Why should the slunima kids get perfect chinuch and Laloums kids no chinuch at all? after all if he is secular he could his kids to PS.
" widely accepted opinion about Lubavitch"
"Widely accepted" by who? You and all the other haters out there?
You're no better the those that have the "widely accepted opinion" of Israel and by extension all Jews. Get over the hate fest already.Enough with this senseless stupidity.Stop spouting your virulent sinah.We don't need to be mikatrig on one another.Were'e getting enough of it from all the haters of Klal Yisroel.
To Curious George -
But see later "context-clarification" of those remarks:
tzig, i can't belive you are so naive! do u also think the zionists should have hamdled the PR of the flotilla differently and then everything would have been ok? just look at some of the hatred of the uninformed dopes posting here and tell me that with "good pr" the charedim could have had the public's sympathy. there is no point in even trying to please these jerks. btw of your posters friday 5:38pm wins the biggest jerk award.
Chinuch Atzmoi and Chabad mamlachti dai have been from the outset, two gxv't funded educational "zramin" that are independent as far as the ruchniyus is concerned. That is the deal with gov't from the start. So the High Court tried to force their say on the ruchnius, and that is the hulabaloo. It starts here, and then it could go anywhere. The demonstrations were not against sfardim, they were protesting the high court's forcing them to revoke a freedom that every parent is promised in the state, and the right of every child: education according to their parents' standards.
Interesting that no matter how many sfardi fathers sit in jail, oilom goilom will continue and say that this is about discrimination. Therefore it was foolish of the coordinators to bring Rabbi Baztri to say slichos- and really unnatural.
About RYY Yosef being a tzadik, let's leave the judging to the Judge, what is for sure is that he, instead of being proud of his heritage, is busy feeling bitter. This makes his fellow sfardis bitter too, and makes them want to get into institutions that have a different agenda, different background, different mentality, different nusach, different foods, ifferent songs, different codes of dress etc. Different, not better.
B"H that in Lubavitch we are one big family, as per the Rebbe's horoas. Halevai everyone would learn from us. We may have our internal machloikes, it is certainly not racial, rather ideological.
PS- the medina was the one who taught the citizens who are second class by a series of monstrous acts to the sfardi immigrants, from yaldei teiman, ringworm etc. etc. So who is the bagatz to say anything in the matter? Return the stolen children, then we;'ll talk...
The Medina is allowed to do teshuva on their old sins, so they did it in all aspects, so now its time for the charidem to do teshuva. Breaking racial barriers for Rav Yosef is the right thing to do, they don't listen to din torah, so it was the only one option to go.
Rubashkin sentence just in, 27 years.
Talk about speaking up before you know the facts.
These comments are as ridiculous as they are lacking for knowledge.
There are 28% sefardim in the school.
They also comprise 28% of the parents in jail at this time.
Any family who wanted to be in the chassidishe track, could have accepted the takanon, written by Rav Vosner, and would have been accepted.
The protest was not, as the anti-chareidi media claims, in favor of segregated classes. It was against the bagatz / chilonim mixing in in our chinuch, a topic of which they know nothing about.
It was also about the verdict which was phrased that the high court's decision is the highest decision, above that of the Torah and the halacha. Dust to the mouth that spews such nonesense!!! From a "dati" no less!
If RYY is such a tzaddik, why is he running to bagatz with his issues? An action with ROY says is considered raising your hand against the Torah, and gets no cheilek in Olam habba? Not accusing. Not judging. Just asking. But it looks like he made a mistake here.
--- peace to all
The Zionists are losing terribly the PR battle with the Arabs, yet they are winning over the Haredim. Go figure.
It took a lot of effort ,but I am glad i went to the Rubashkin rally in Bais Yaako BP
The inspiration and Ahavas Isroel displayed for a Lubavitcher in Boro Park was Awesome.
It was embarrassing though that only a handful of Lubavithers showed up.We help the whole world but forget about our own Brothers.
We have a lot to learn from Satmar in Monroe and from the Yated ,from all their Ahavas Isroel towards Shalom Rubashkin.They spearheaded this whole campaign.
Let's stop all the fighting and the Salvation will come Amen.
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